Chivalry is dead. And wymen/womyn killed it.

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jockslap

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theklng said:
there are alot of things wrong with the world. i think i'd rather prioritize things more worth my attention than to be told whether chivalry is dead or not, and who killed it. the world is not static; chivalry, like most other abstract things in human nature, isn't dead and won't die. like anything else in its domain, it will evolve fit our human behaviour.

as for the more concrete part of the OP: the irony in that you write a thread about this issue after this happened is that it leaves you in the same situation as her. "modern day" chivalry might actually expect you to not just whine about it to your dear friend, mr. internet, but either shrug it off and think nothing of it, or do something about it when you're actually in the situation.

i would say more about this issue at hand and elaborate upon why people creating threads like these are a problem, but frankly you've taken enough of my time as it is. don't whine if things don't work your way, do something about them.
well you bring up a few good points, but i dont see why you claim that this is a waste of time. By discussing the problem we gain a better grip on it, and in order to truly come up with a suitable solution we must understand the problem. We don't find out why airplanes crash by ignoring the fact that they did. As human beings we should investigate human problems, and use our collective thinking to come up with a solution, it's what i think makes humans so awesome, it's what defines us, and regardless of the topic im fully behind the discussion and investigation, this just happens to be my chosen topic.
 

santaandy

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Chivalry is dead because it was a stupid idea. Putting a social group on a pedestal just gives them a big ego. And politeness is better than going-out-of-your-way-ness. I'll hold the door for you, but I won't carry you across a mud puddle. Deal with it.

While I don't think women as a whole are out to get me, I do think there are still a lot of gender interaction problems.

I think saying wymen or womyn instead of women is just as stupid as viewing the "men" in "women" as some sort of sexism. We're called that because we are human. That's where "man" comes from. You women always get something extra just because, and in this case it's a syllable!

It's okay not to *need* a man, but it is okay to want one.

The sex industry is not biased against women, but against men. That is why it is so hard for men to get paid equally, or to have their face appear in films. There are also less male strip clubs and male prostitutes for the same reason. Also, women are just as violent in this industry as men, some women make a career out of being a dominatrix, and femdom is a genre, but those things are much harder for men to do without being seen as monsters. And stripping and porn are not the same thing as sex slavery or human trafficking. Women can and do chose the former, the latter are outright crimes regardless of gender on either side. And for those who claim sexual predatory tactics by men, look at Girls Gone Wild. There were a small handful of cases of predatory practices, but by and large younger college-age women like taking their clothes of and behaving in sexually disgusting ways for any number of reasons; pay, fame, or just because. It's okay to be sexual and enjoy your sexuality, but how you do it determines how you will be treated. And this whole Natalie Dylan thing really pisses me off. It's okay to strip for tuition, but this girl is just a golddigging whore who only wants as much money as she can get. No one is worth $1 million dollars, especially people who think they deserve it. As far as rape goes, women are just as bad as men, see all the teacher scandals. Nowadays there are more female teachers sleeping with students than males. And women are the default victim and males are the default offender. How is that fair? Women are allowed to shamelessly indulge in their sexual desires whilst decrying men for the same thing. Enjoying sex is not sexist for either gender, and gender doesn't make the crime.

The violence thing is bullshit, women are just as violent if not more so than men. And why do people say "it's not okay to hit a woman"? Is it okay to hit a man? I guarantee you if a woman took a swing at me I'd knock her ass out! People should say "it's not okay to hit a person" instead. And I agree that women who fear retribution do NOT deserve to be beat. No one deserves violence for any reason other than those who commit it themselves.

It is far better for women socially. The whole concept of alimony is outrageous; if you don't want to live with me anymore, pay for yourself, *****! Women are also given preferential treatment in child custody and adoption, where as men who want to be around children (such as teachers) are seen as pedophiles. While there are still pay issues, jobs are becoming more equalled. The only reason women who stay at home work at home is because it's not fair for one person to go to work while the other person is free of responsibilities. If you want to stay home fine, but I'll still put your ass to work. More and more men are becoming accepting of that. Gender power depictions are becoming mroe skewed towards women; men are increasingly being portrayed as incompetent and women as having to save them. This is particularly true of housekeeping supplies commercials. And why do women complain about child-rearing, more often than not, it's the woman who wants to have them! Women seem to have baby fever, seeing baby stuff just makes them want one so badly! Men do this sometimes too, but not as much as women. Besides, women have the physical capabilities to raise infants, at least until they can function independently a woman should be a part of child raising.

Why is it okay for there to be things for women only, but not men only? We aren't trying to opress women out of having a gym, just trying to keep one for ourselves. Women ***** about having to go to another gym first just to look good enough for the gym they *want* to go to, so maybe we just want the same? We just want some bonding time/activities with our own gender. Having a men's gym is not a bad thing. Yet because of the current favoritism towards women, such gender inequalities are allowed to exist. I'm tired of the "but if I did that for a man you'd sue me!" climate I live in.

The thing I don't like about feminists the most is that they make their gender an issue when it isn't one or at least shouldn't be. There is a difference between equality and superiority, between protest or advocacy and activism, between deserving fairness and demanding entitlement. I think good women who want the better of these things are unfairly labelled feminists when really they are more like equality advocates. While I hear men complaining about female unfairness quite a bit, I don't hear them whining about entitlement quite as much. Women's groups just want to force women into everything even if they aren't qualified or even interested, and this just makes them look worse. Feminists should focus less on forcing their presence and more on improving the quality of their presence (through education and good behavior) to levels that make them desireable independent of their gender.

I was raised to not treat women different *at all* because of their gender, and for the most part I found that other men have been raised the same. There's always going to be some asshat on either side ruining it, but if there isn't, don't make it that way. I bet most younger women haven't experienced half the things women used to, younger women simply don't know what opression really is. If you haven't been opressed, it isn't fair to whine like you have been.

I am tired of women who want to be equal and special. Sorry women, but if you want me to treat you special, you have to earn it. Gender is not what makes people special and different, how they behave and interact with people, and what they bring to other's lives is. You get to be special because you act and genuinely *are* special, not because of some arbitrary trait.

To be fair, women are hardly the only social minority (I know there are more women than men in the world, but socially they have been a minority for most of history) where such double standards exist. It seems with progressing towards tolerance only allows the intolerances of the other side to be more freely allowed. Its just that I have to hear about issues with women more than other groups. Happily, most women I've met have been pretty awesome as far as all this goes, but they've also been able to exist independently of the collective. If women would stop letting their collective consciousness, presence, and ability to complain do their thinking and acting for them, I bet things would be much better.

Sorry for the long post but I had a lot of points to make. I hope it wasnt' confusing but I didn't want to expand too much as my post is long enough alredy.
 

delet

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Mullahgrrl said:
What bothers me is people that won't go through a door if your holding it up, stopping and going through the other door (In case of there being one of those double doors I mean. Not if they are headed somwhere else obviously)
And the complete opposite, really. The women who simply stand there expecting you to go in front of them and open the door for them (both doors, if there are 2 in a row), when they could just as easily open the door themselves...
 

LoganDarkHolme

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Nov 13, 2008
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santaandy said:
Chivalry is dead because it was a stupid idea. Putting a social group on a pedestal just gives them a big ego. And politeness is better than going-out-of-your-way-ness. I'll hold the door for you, but I won't carry you across a mud puddle. Deal with it.

While I don' think women as a whole are out to get me, I do think there are still a lot of gender interaction problems.

I think saying wymen or womyn instead of women is just as stupid as viewing the "men" in "women" as some sort of sexism. We're called that because we are human. That's where "man" comes from. You women always get something extra just because, and in this case it's a syllable!

It's okay not to *need* a man, but it is okay to want one.

The sex industry is not biased against women, but against men. That is why it is so hard for men to get paid equally, or to have their face appear in films. There are also less male strip clubs and male prostitutes for the same reason. Also, women are just as violent in this industry as men, some women make a career out of being a dominatrix, and femdom is a genre, but those things are much harder for men to do without being seen as monsters. And stripping and porn are not the same thing as sex slavery or human trafficking. Women can and do chose the former, the latter are outright crimes regardless of gender on either side. And for those who claim sexual predatory tactics by men, look at Girls Gone Wild. There were a small handful of cases of predatory practices, but by and large younger college-age women like taking their clothes of and behaving in sexually disgusting ways for any number of reasons; pay, fame, or just because. It's okay to be sexual and enjoy your sexuality, but how you do it determines how you will be treated. And this whole Natalie Dylan thing really pisses me off. It's okay to strip for tuition, but this girl is just a golddigging whore who only wants as much money as she can get. No one is worth $1 million dollars, especially people who think they deserve it. As far as rape goes, women are just as bad as men, see all the teacher scandals. Nowadays there are more female teachers sleeping with students than males. And women are the default victim and males are the default offender. How is that fair? Women are allowed to shamelessly indulge in their sexual desires whilst decrying men for the same thing. Enjoying sex is not sexist for either gender, and gender doesn't make the crime.

The violence thing is bullshit, women are just as violent if not more so than men. And why do people say "it's not okay to hit a woman"? Is it okay to hit a man? I guarantee you if a woman took a swing at me I'd knock her ass out! People should say "it's not okay to hit a person" instead. And I agree that women who fear retribution do NOT deserve to be beat. No one deserves violence for any reason other than those who commit it themselves.

It is far better for women socially. The whole concept of alimony is outrageous; if you don't want to live with me anymore, pay for yourself, *****! Women are also given preferential treatment in child custody and adoption, where as men who want to be around children (such as teachers) are seen as pedophiles. While there are still pay issues, jobs are becoming more equalled. The only reason women who stay at home work at home is because it's not fair for one person to go to work while the other person is free of responsibilities. If you want to stay home fine, but I'll still put your ass to work. More and more men are becoming accepting of that. Gender power depictions are becoming mroe skewed towards women; men are increasingly being portrayed as incompetent and women as having to save them. This is particularly true of housekeeping supplies commercials. And why do women complain about child-rearing, more often than not, it's the woman who wants to have them! Women seem to have baby fever, seeing baby stuff just makes them want one so badly! Men do this sometimes too, but not as much as women. Besides, women have the physical capabilities to raise infants, at least until they can function independently a woman should be a part of child raising.

Why is it okay for there to be things for women only, but not men only? We aren't trying to opress women out of having a gym, just trying to keep one for ourselves. Women ***** about having to go to another gym first just to look good enough for the gym they *want* to go to, so maybe we just want the same? We just want some bonding time/activities with our own gender. Having a men's gym is not a bad thing. Yet because of the current favoritism towards women, such gender inequalities are allowed to exist. I'm tired of the "but if I did that for a man you'd sue me!" climate I live in.

The thing I don't like about feminists the most is that they make their gender an issue when it isn't one or at least shouldn't be. There is a difference between equality and superiority, between protest or advocacy and activism, between deserving fairness and demanding entitlement. I think good women who want the better of these things are unfairly labelled feminists when really they are more like equality advocates. While I hear men complaining about female unfairness quite a bit, I don't hear them whining about entitlement quite as much. Women's groups just want to force women into everything even if they aren't qualified or even interested, and this just makes them look worse. Feminists should focus less on forcing their presence and more on improving the quality of their presence (through education and good behavior) to levels that make them desireable independent of their gender.

I was raised to not treat women different *at all* because of their gender, and for the most part I found that other men have been raised the same. There's always going to be some asshat on either side ruining it, but if there isn't, don't make it that way. I bet most younger women haven't experienced half the things women used to, younger women simply don't know what opression really is. If you haven't been opressed, it isn't fair to whine like you have been.

I am tired of women who want to be equal and special. Sorry women, but if you want me to treat you special, you have to earn it. Gender is not what makes people special and different, how they behave and interact with people, and what they bring to other's lives is. You get to be special because you act and genuinely *are* special, not because of some arbitrary trait.

To be fair, women are hardly the only social minority (I know there are more women than men in the world, but socially they have been a minority for most of history) where such double standards exist. It seems with progressing towards tolerance only allows the intolerances of the other side to be more freely allowed. Its just that I have to hear about issues with women more than other groups. If women would stop letting their collective consciousness, presence, and ability to complain do their thinking and acting for them, I bet things would be much better.

Sorry for the long post but I had a lot of points to make. I hope it wasnt' confusing but I didn't want to expand too much as my post is long enough alredy.



ok im voting you for president
 

TheGreatGonzo26

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Whoo hoo hooo... quite a heated debate going on over here.

As a woman, I personally find it courteous when a man is nice enough to hold open a door for me or any other woman, and I try to pass on that same courtesy to others.

Now, as for a wage gaps, here in the U.S, women are still earning less than men, but then again, minority men are also earning less than white men and white women. Granted, there are some jobs where men will perform better than women, but as a whole, the gap is still there.

I would venture a guess and say that men dominate a good portion of the industries out there, save for education and childcare. Feminism really started out as a way to, for lack of a better phrase, even out the playing field between working men and women. One such practice is fathers getting maternity leave.
 

searanox

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Chivalry is a dumb idea, and inherently sexist in that it reinforces ideologies of difference. I show common courtesy to others because it doesn't inconvenience me and I don't wish to make other people's lives more difficult, but I don't treat people differently due to their genders; further respect must be earned. Women are not special for being women; individuals are special for being excellent.

Feminism is not over. Women make around 70 cents per every dollar men make; they still face problems like the glass ceiling; they are still far more likely to be victims of sex crimes at the hands of men, and far less likely to be perpetrators of violent crimes; they are still socialised from a very early age to fit into a very narrow set of archetypes, and are taught from day one that their bodies are one of the few things that give them power in the world. Men also face many similar challenges, but the way our society is set up, they also enjoy many privileges that women do not, and their traits are valued more than women's. Anyone who thinks that there is a level playing field out there is fooling themselves, and both men and women are guilty of believing it. That does not, however, mean that anyone should be special. There is acknowledging difference, and then there is privileging different disproportionately. Sadly, lots of people, including women, think that feminism is all about the latter.
 

Larenxis

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Forgive me for not reading the whole thing, but the title is rather grabbing.

I don't get how holding open a door for a stranger is chivalrous. It's just polite. If you wouldn't have done it for a male then I suppose your intentions are sort of strange, but it's still a normal and good deed in my opinion. I do it all the time. If you were looking smug or checking her out then maybe just maybe her reaction would be easily rationalized, but otherwise I think her reaction was a display of poor form. I think complaining about it on a gaming forum and treating the issue like it wasn't just one experience but is an entire movement is also extremely poor form. She could've been having a lousy day and just blurted it out, but you had to start a new thread, type it out, and enter it. You had time to contemplate, and chose to keep a title you knew would cause a stir. Poor form indeed.

On the topic of sexism, just don't participate it. I don't. Simple as that.
 

Bulletinmybrain

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LoganDarkHolme said:
as quoted by a comic whos name escapes me at the current time

Women dont want equality, they want to be treated like women but paid like a man end quote



that being said, you want to talk double standard, yes, some men are pigs, not all of us are, im polite, i work with the general public and ill tell you, it takes all kinds, what makes the difference is the ability to over look the ones you know are bat shit crazy and continue to smile and be polite to those who deserve it but it goes both ways, some women have it in their head that they are the rulers that they can do what they want how they want, they are female their for they have absolute power and will degrade and look down their noses at men weather it is deserved or not
Carlos Mencia?
 

santaandy

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
santaandy said:
It is far better for women socially. The whole concept of alimony is outrageous; if you don't want to live with me anymore, pay for yourself, *****!
The concept is that if one person sacrificed career opportunities for the sake of the partnership, that person should be compensated. Every decision has an opportunity cost, so alimony is simply a form of paying off the debt.

Besides, as far as men and alimony, K-Fed god *paid*
Well, I am going to assume you aren't necessarily in favor of alimony, as you're right; K-Fed did get paid (and was no more deserving of it than a woman). But in a relationship the sacrifice was your choice. I sacrificed the right to sell my disappointing new PS3 game for $60 by unwrapping it, but I can't sue Sony or the dev for the difference. Your sacrifice was your choice, you were not forced to make it. And what about all the things the working partner sacrifices? I sacrificed 8 hours a day so you wouldn't have to, so should you be forced to spend 1/3 of the rest of your life with me? When you get divorced, it's over. Divide up your shit and move on, don't drag it out or suck the life and money out of the other person. Things are good enough for women now that they can get enough form the divviance to sustain themselves until they can get a job. Which they also have a better chance at now. Either for being outdated or gender-biased, alimony sucks and should be abolished.

Thanks TheGreatGonzo26 for bringing up something positive that women have done for men, it's all to often that we forget there really are some decent ladies out there that do want good for men too. That's what equality is all about! :)

And searanox I agree. Women should not only be educated better, but raised better (by society). While there's still a way to go for women, they do have it better than ever before. I feel our differences should not be ignored, negated, or believed to be divisive; they should be celebrated.
 

Bulletinmybrain

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
Bulletinmybrain said:
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
Bulletinmybrain said:
Well it seems I am the only one that would want out of an abusive relationship so thats why I used the term oddball.
You're confusing the word 'want' with the ability to change one's situation. A lot of people want to be pro athletes--doesn't mean they have the drive or the lack of self-defeating habits to do the work necessary to make that want become a reality.
But if you want something bad enough you will find the ability to get what you want.
Exactly--if you want something *bad enough*: you said just "Well it seems I am the only one that would want out of an abusive relationship". That qualification wasn't in your initial statement, and that's what I was trying to point out.
Why are we even discussing this lol? Arn't their spicy topics to tear to shreds?
 

jockslap

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Larenxis said:
Forgive me for not reading the whole thing, but the title is rather grabbing.

I don't get how holding open a door for a stranger is chivalrous. It's just polite. If you wouldn't have done it for a male then I suppose your intentions are sort of strange, but it's still a normal and good deed in my opinion. I do it all the time. If you were looking smug or checking her out then maybe just maybe her reaction would be easily rationalized, but otherwise I think her reaction was a display of poor form. I think complaining about it on a gaming forum and treating the issue like it wasn't just one experience but is an entire movement is also extremely poor form. She could've been having a lousy day and just blurted it out, but you had to start a new thread, type it out, and enter it. You had time to contemplate, and chose to keep a title you knew would cause a stir. Poor form indeed.

On the topic of sexism, just don't participate it. I don't. Simple as that.
i chose a title that would grab attention, and make u say "hey, what's going on here?"
I think you will find it's a quite tame and intelligent conversation, that has led to a few rather satisfying conclusions. And maybe i need to revise the OP because my intention was to use the Timmies incident with the door as an EXAMPLE of what im talking about. instead of typing up a page of my argument i just dropped in two examples from my life that I have noticed and decided to share. i will promptly update the OP to clarify that
 

theklng

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jockslap said:
theklng said:
there are alot of things wrong with the world. i think i'd rather prioritize things more worth my attention than to be told whether chivalry is dead or not, and who killed it. the world is not static; chivalry, like most other abstract things in human nature, isn't dead and won't die. like anything else in its domain, it will evolve fit our human behaviour.

as for the more concrete part of the OP: the irony in that you write a thread about this issue after this happened is that it leaves you in the same situation as her. "modern day" chivalry might actually expect you to not just whine about it to your dear friend, mr. internet, but either shrug it off and think nothing of it, or do something about it when you're actually in the situation.

i would say more about this issue at hand and elaborate upon why people creating threads like these are a problem, but frankly you've taken enough of my time as it is. don't whine if things don't work your way, do something about them.
well you bring up a few good points, but i dont see why you claim that this is a waste of time. By discussing the problem we gain a better grip on it, and in order to truly come up with a suitable solution we must understand the problem. We don't find out why airplanes crash by ignoring the fact that they did. As human beings we should investigate human problems, and use our collective thinking to come up with a solution, it's what i think makes humans so awesome, it's what defines us, and regardless of the topic im fully behind the discussion and investigation, this just happens to be my chosen topic.
the problem is not "ours". it's yours.
 

Bulletinmybrain

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Jun 22, 2008
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searanox said:
Chivalry is a dumb idea, and inherently sexist in that it reinforces ideologies of difference. I show common courtesy to others because it doesn't inconvenience me and I don't wish to make other people's lives more difficult, but I don't treat people differently due to their genders; further respect must be earned. Women are not special for being women; individuals are special for being excellent.

Feminism is not over. Women make around 70 cents per every dollar men make; they still face problems like the glass ceiling; they are still far more likely to be victims of sex crimes at the hands of men, and far less likely to be perpetrators of violent crimes; they are still socialised from a very early age to fit into a very narrow set of archetypes, and are taught from day one that their bodies are one of the few things that give them power in the world. Men also face many similar challenges, but the way our society is set up, they also enjoy many privileges that women do not, and their traits are valued more than women's. Anyone who thinks that there is a level playing field out there is fooling themselves, and both men and women are guilty of believing it. That does not, however, mean that anyone should be special. There is acknowledging difference, and then there is privileging different disproportionately. Sadly, lots of people, including women, think that feminism is all about the latter.
In any workplace if somebody does the exact same job as you they will get the exact same amount of pay as you.
 

jockslap

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May 20, 2008
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theklng said:
jockslap said:
theklng said:
there are alot of things wrong with the world. i think i'd rather prioritize things more worth my attention than to be told whether chivalry is dead or not, and who killed it. the world is not static; chivalry, like most other abstract things in human nature, isn't dead and won't die. like anything else in its domain, it will evolve fit our human behaviour.

as for the more concrete part of the OP: the irony in that you write a thread about this issue after this happened is that it leaves you in the same situation as her. "modern day" chivalry might actually expect you to not just whine about it to your dear friend, mr. internet, but either shrug it off and think nothing of it, or do something about it when you're actually in the situation.

i would say more about this issue at hand and elaborate upon why people creating threads like these are a problem, but frankly you've taken enough of my time as it is. don't whine if things don't work your way, do something about them.
well you bring up a few good points, but i dont see why you claim that this is a waste of time. By discussing the problem we gain a better grip on it, and in order to truly come up with a suitable solution we must understand the problem. We don't find out why airplanes crash by ignoring the fact that they did. As human beings we should investigate human problems, and use our collective thinking to come up with a solution, it's what i think makes humans so awesome, it's what defines us, and regardless of the topic im fully behind the discussion and investigation, this just happens to be my chosen topic.
the problem is not "ours". it's yours.
seems like other people are contributing, maybe you arent so keen to do so, but look at some of the posts, they're interesting (while i may not agree with) and im learning from my fellow man/woman wether you choose to do so or not is entirely up to you, but please don't condemn the rest of us.
 

bowserboy26578

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Oct 23, 2008
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Chivalry really is dead. at this point in history you have so many woman who think that they are men,that the line between manors and sexism is no more. I hold the door for everyone, and everyone seems to appriciate it. Maybe that chick you saw was just a *****.