Citizen-Con 2015 (Star Citizen)

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Unless any of you is a production manager at a major studio, nobody here actually knows how game development works in that level of detail. There is programming work being done that is essential to the game but doesn't actually result in anything flashy to see right now. A ton of work is being done on the campaign, but they're not talking about it because they want to avoid spoilers. They're doing a lot of other work that they can't or won't show yet.
I know that all of this IS happening. I don't know, however, to what extent, and neither do you. So we really can't say anything about to what extent the game is actually finished.

Personally, I think that they're pretty close to having the framework finished. The engine, physics, most mechanics etc. The rest is building content for those mechanics and physics to be used in, which would probably mean that once the base of the alpha PU is live, it wil get expanded at a fair pace. Of course it still might crash and burn, who knows.

So, here's my suggestion: why don't we all have a nice hot cup of shut the hell up? Neither side is going to convince the other (and there always have to be sides because nuance is for suckers), so let's just sit back, wait and see and when it's all over, one of the sides gets to have a nice little 'I told you so' moment and the other will be butthurt. Then we'll get over it because we're (more or less) adults and move on to the next shiny thing.

I'm going to level with you on something, personal experience-wise. Framework is something that is definitely important, I agree. However if an engine is ready enough to have released demo or alpha works, then usually in development the major gruntwork for the engine is in basic terms complete. The tweaking and bug-hunting work takes up the majority of post-engine development, as does the asset creation (done by another team) the animations and motion capture (another team as well) and the 3D model framework (usually done by the asset team but can be subbed to another depending on studio size).

The division of labor for a game is tantamount to good production and release. The way you put it, and I'm just inferring here, is that the development is mostly focused still on the engine. At this point in development, if the engine isn't ready for alpha-type public consumption they shouldn't have released any playable parts. From what I've read over the course of this controversy, the general idea is that the engine itself is complete on a playable scale, not a final product scale but at least an alpha which means that the core of development on the engine focus is now on the tweaking and bug-hunt stage.
The asset crew, the basic animation crew and such, if the company was smart, already have created a majority of the things needed whereas the mocap crew, if I read right, are just coming into play with the addition of Serkis.

At this point the main programming crew may also be tasked with adding features to the game, which means more engine tweaks and bug-hunts. This is the point where a lot of games fail, feature creep is a major weight to a game and can make the framework, in an aesthetic viewpoint not the engine itself, structurally unsound and overall hurt the game. I'm not saying this is exactly what is happening, but the majority of games developed in the past on this scale, and mind you Star Citizen is promising a scale beyond what any other game has attempted to do, have failed massively.

I point you to Peter Molyneux, the man who was a well respected developer and face of one of the best companies to make games in the golden years (hyperbole), Bullfrog and later Lionhead. Then he started to promise gamers things that he couldn't deliver on, and every game he released at that point in his career fell far short of the mark he promised, right up to Curiosity and Godus.

A developer should be wary of rising to those heights and be comparable to Molyneux. It makes some of us worry when we hear those promises, some of us may feel that someone's trying to sell us a bridge in Jersey.

Now I'm not denigrating CIG, nor Roberts or Star Citizen, I'm hoping that the promises can be delivered on at least in a capacity of 80% or more, but I also worry about parallels to past events in game history. I hope that things go smooth, we get a game that is awesome and memorable and not another Daikatana-like warning of ambitious fervor not delivering.

As for the comment to "shut up," inferring that the concerns of some people are invalid at all because the future hasn't happened yet (my paraphrase and inference of the statement given), silencing people is a poor idea. Discussion has value even if we don't have all the answers. We all who're interested in SC have the right to discuss our concerns, even if some people are extreme about it. And yes we can wait and see, thats what most of us are doing especially, I'd guess, a majority of the folks who haven't paid for SC in any format. These are the people that will ultimately make CIG their profit from the game post-release and these are the people that should never be bashed for their concerns. The toxic ones I do not defend, those folks are just as bad as the zealots who sockpuppet defend CIG without acknowledging the concerns of the unpaid, non-backers as valid on their face.

Point being no one has to convince the other side on who's right because at this point no one is right. None of us have free and total access to the inner-workings of CIG, nor the true state of Star Citizen's progress beyond what is released by the company. We've rarely, possibly never, have had as much access to an unfinished game on this scale. We have seen the Early Access business model though, and it raises a lot of concerns for some of us. The concerns are valid and the discussion is valid. The shouting down of the concerned though, it does not help the situation, nor does it endear anyone who has concerns and it really puts a damper on the public face of the fanbase of SC.

TL;DR - Our concerns over the scale of Star Citizen are valid, as gaming development promises and the delivery of promises made have lacked by well trusted and liked developers in the past. Discussion has value, and we all benefit from constructive discussion of concerns, and moreover all of us have the right to discuss concerns whether we've backed the game or not.

 

[Michael Navas]

Look it appear's as though there are two main arguements levelled against Star Citizen. The first being finances which as I have said several times in my previous posts, is impossible to argue because we do not have access to CIG's finances.

Can you explain why the unknowability of their records matter, though, without SC's success also being a miracle?

If I have some thousands in my wallet and promise to build a proper house with it, why are others' ignorance of my secret plans a counter to their criticism that it can't be done? Why are they wrong in calling it a miracle if I pull it off? Why does their ignorance of my brilliance matter before I have actually proven them wrong?

This is what I don't get.

------------------------------------------------

As an aside, according to this article...

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-cost-81-million-to-make/

...the Witcher 3 had 1500 people involved wholly or partially, 500 of them voice actors. Which means that at a glance, CiG with its employee numbers in their hundreds, are supposed to do more than 1500 did, with the same amount of money. In a more expensive country. While being much less experienced as a company.
To be clear, that is massively worse than the earlier comparison, which made CDPR and CIG look roughly equal in terms of resources. An even greater reason for skepticism.

 

[DefunctTheory]

To people who may know more then me:

On their website, stretch goals ended at 65 million dollars. Their 27 million above that now. Have they offered more for that 27 million, or is it pure bank for them?

This is another disturbing thing - According to what I'm reading, everything they were offering was supposed to be delivered at the, quite frankly, bargain bin price of 65 million dollars. Unless theres something I don't know.

 

[Tharaxis]

To people who may know more then me:

On their website, stretch goals ended at 65 million dollars. Their 27 million above that now. Have they offered more for that 27 million, or is it pure bank for them?

This is another disturbing thing - According to what I'm reading, everything they were offering was supposed to be delivered at the, quite frankly, bargain bin price of 65 million dollars. Unless theres something I don't know.

It was stated that doing endless stretch goals was pointless since they kept on being broken through by the backers, that they would instead cease adding further stretch goals and that any additional monies would just be generally folded back into making the game better (for whatever value of "better" may be).

 

[DefunctTheory]

To people who may know more then me:

On their website, stretch goals ended at 65 million dollars. Their 27 million above that now. Have they offered more for that 27 million, or is it pure bank for them?

This is another disturbing thing - According to what I'm reading, everything they were offering was supposed to be delivered at the, quite frankly, bargain bin price of 65 million dollars. Unless theres something I don't know.

It was stated that doing endless stretch goals was pointless since they kept on being broken through by the backers, that they would instead cease adding further stretch goals and that any additional monies would just be generally folded back into making the game better (for whatever value of "better" may be).

See, I do find that disturbing. Because if the money isn't being given to a specific goal, that means either one or some or all of the following is true:

1. Cloud Imperium really did fuck up their budgeting, and they desperately need this money to get everything they've already promised done.
2. Cloud Imperium wants your money, now, and this is no longer a crowd funding project, but simply the greatest money making scheme devised in gaming since DLC.
3. The current shop is simply a 'pay to win' system that has the audacity to exist before the game is even playable.

 

[Tharaxis]

Wait, paying for a completed product is a bad thing now? When did this happen? I really hope you're not trying to make the argument that plopping down money for something in alpha(and which may never leave alpha or actually become a remotely complete game in it's "final" state) because there are many examples, both on steam greenlight and in the AAA industry(AC:Unity, Aliens: Colonial Marines) to the contrary.

Are there a few games that are worth in Alpha and eventually go on to become even better games upon final release? sure. But they are few and far between(and I'm not convinced by any means that SC is going to be one of them).

Have no idea where you came to believe that I was inferring that paying for a completed product was a bad thing? I would love to know how you came to that conclusion.

The nature of crowdfunding is inherently about paying for something that is incomplete (or in some cases not even started) in the hope that you will not only be a part of the creation of said game, but also that said game will meet expectations that have been set by those doing the campaign - forget the possibility that the product may NEVER make it to fruition (something that happens frequently in traditional AAA and crowdfunded scenarios). To attempt to compare the two is somewhat disingenuous. What I was stating was that the expectation for the product to be complete at this stage in time somewhat demonstrates ignorance of how traditional AAA products are developed vs. (as an example) Star Citizen - my underlying argument is that traditional AAA games only become available for hands on time once they are significantly feature-complete while in the case of a crowdfunded game such as SC, parts are still very much in fluctuation and you cannot expect full sections of gameplay or game any time soon, but in turn you get your hands on those bits far sooner to get a feel for where things are going (but again, things may change significantly over time).

The OP was arguing that since there is nothing substantial to play at this time, there is reason to be worried. My counter-argument was that there is a fundamental difference between when get our hands on games in a traditional AAA scenario vs. when we get our hands on them in a crowdfunded one and that there is little reason to be worried at all at the moment. If the game was year 5 or year 6 and we were still sitting with what we have now (and no end in sight) then I would certainly be concerned, but as it is we have a tentative release of 2016 (I'm guessing likely Q4) for Squadron 42, which implies that by that time a lot of the mechanics that will be define SC will be feature-complete probably Q2-Q3 of 2016. As it stands I have few concerns right now and to imply that there should be is somewhat... inflammatory.

 

[Tharaxis]

To people who may know more then me:

On their website, stretch goals ended at 65 million dollars. Their 27 million above that now. Have they offered more for that 27 million, or is it pure bank for them?

This is another disturbing thing - According to what I'm reading, everything they were offering was supposed to be delivered at the, quite frankly, bargain bin price of 65 million dollars. Unless theres something I don't know.

It was stated that doing endless stretch goals was pointless since they kept on being broken through by the backers, that they would instead cease adding further stretch goals and that any additional monies would just be generally folded back into making the game better (for whatever value of "better" may be).

See, I do find that disturbing. Because if the money isn't being given to a specific goal, that means either one or some or all of the following is true:

1. Cloud Imperium really did fuck up their budgeting, and they desperately need this money to get everything they've already promised done.
2. Cloud Imperium wants your money, now, and this is no longer a crowd funding project, but simply the greatest money making scheme devised in gaming since DLC.
3. The current shop is simply a 'pay to win' system that has the audacity to exist before the game is even playable.

I would say it implies none of the above, and your conspiracy theories are pretty much without merit.

All it means is that the budget is ultimately going towards the game, which is where it's supposed to go in the first place. I mean if I went and said "oh well that's just cream on the top now" then you would have decried THAT and said "oh well that shows that they're just screwing customers out of their cash". Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Eventually a project has to stop adding new features and has to say "okay, well, we can now look to improving our current set of features to flesh them out further than we intended, and/or to go into further development post-release". Would you prefer that extra money WASN'T going towards the game? I don't really understand your logic.

 

[Tharaxis]

A good example of the above is lets say at the 65 million dollar mark the acting would be motion capture, but now with the additional budget they can enhance that with full performance capture and all the extra tech that has been built around facial animation - enhancing what would have been normal mocap and turning it into something more impressive.

Note, I am only using the above as an example, I have no idea at what point performance capture was chosen over motion capture or whether motion capture was ever the original idea at all It is merely for the purposes of illustration.

 

[Tharaxis]

Relax, I think most of us understand that this is a matter of incompetence, not crime.

There isn't much proof of either if we're being honest.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

To people who may know more then me:

On their website, stretch goals ended at 65 million dollars. Their 27 million above that now. Have they offered more for that 27 million, or is it pure bank for them?

This is another disturbing thing - According to what I'm reading, everything they were offering was supposed to be delivered at the, quite frankly, bargain bin price of 65 million dollars. Unless theres something I don't know.

It was stated that doing endless stretch goals was pointless since they kept on being broken through by the backers, that they would instead cease adding further stretch goals and that any additional monies would just be generally folded back into making the game better (for whatever value of "better" may be).

See, I do find that disturbing. Because if the money isn't being given to a specific goal, that means either one or some or all of the following is true:

1. Cloud Imperium really did fuck up their budgeting, and they desperately need this money to get everything they've already promised done.
2. Cloud Imperium wants your money, now, and this is no longer a crowd funding project, but simply the greatest money making scheme devised in gaming since DLC.
3. The current shop is simply a 'pay to win' system that has the audacity to exist before the game is even playable.

I would say it implies none of the above, and your conspiracy theories are pretty much without merit.

All it means is that the budget is ultimately going towards the game, which is where it's supposed to go in the first place. I mean if I went and said "oh well that's just cream on the top now" then you would have decried THAT and said "oh well that shows that they're just screwing customers out of their cash". Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Eventually a project has to stop adding new features and has to say "okay, well, we can now look to improving our current set of features to flesh them out further than we intended, and/or to go into further development post-release". Would you prefer that extra money WASN'T going towards the game? I don't really understand your logic.

I would prefer that if they have everything they need, they shut down the crowd funding system and get on with it. Like the majority of similar projects do.

If they have all the money they need, then keeping the shop open just to get more people involved is a financially dumb move, since the game is essentially 15+ dollars off right now. The only reason it is financially viable to keep it open is to sell ships, or 'free' products to produce, which they've told us wont be available when the game comes out (To buy, that is). To me, that's a very suspicious business model. 'Buy now, before there's a solid idea of whats going on, AND because all of this is a limited time offer.'

As for it going to the game, well, HOW? The game promised was a space sim with a massive universe, several different game play types, and of a quality (Audio and graphically) so amazing it would melt your computer and give you a joy boner. They talked extensively about how they were making a game that wasn't aimed at the lowest system, and would be mind blowing.

When that's your starting point, what could that 27 million possibly go towards? To use your wording, they were offering cream from the beginning. What possible cranny could they jam more cream into?

I would love for Star Citizen to come out and deliver on every promise. I would overjoyed to be forced to build a new PC to play it. But I can't find a single thing about the process right now that doesn't at least make me nervous. And, if your curious, I felt this way long before the Escapist articles brought these questions to the forefront.

A good example of the above is lets say at the 65 million dollar mark the acting would be motion capture, but now with the additional budget they can enhance that with full performance capture and all the extra tech that has been built around facial animation - enhancing what would have been normal mocap and turning it into something more impressive.

Note, I am only using the above as an example, I have no idea at what point performance capture was chosen over motion capture or whether motion capture was ever the original idea at all It is merely for the purposes of illustration.

Around 27 million is when mocap came up, I believe. Perhaps the 30s.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I can understand where you're perhaps coming from, but I believe it's because it's difficult to understand a) how much as been spent, and b) how much gets spent at this point in time on other similarly large AAA titles. We all see articles like "$80 million spent! Nothing to show for it!" but the reality is we don't know for a fact if $80 million has *actually* been spent, and nor do we know if this is actually normal for most games. We all assume spending that much money in 3 years is somehow frivolous and unnecessary, but do we know? Do we have actual insight into the budgeting process of other AAA games? I would say no.

Do we know? No. Hence why I speak of doubts, and not of knowing. Especially now that we've heard of anonymous sources we've got some credible ground for at least doubt. Of course that's not the same as knowing the situation is SNAFU, hence why I speak of doubts, of red flags.

What I, as an outsider to this whole spiel, see smells fishy. The appearance of a certain degree of incompetence and over-eagerness behind the screens is starting to form. But do I know? No. But reasonable doubt does not require absolute proof. Of course I also hope that this game does end up delivering what it has promised. But I'm simply starting to see a scaled-up kind of Peter Molyneux situation coming up; a visionary biting off more than he can chew.

 

[Mangod]

Relax, I think most of us understand that this is a matter of incompetence, not crime.

There isn't much proof of either if we're being honest.

True. Really, the only thing we have to go on is that the game has such lofty goals that the budget would seem impossibly inadequate for accomplishing them. But even then, that's not proof of anything being wrong.

As I have reiterated before on other threads, this discussion seems rather pointless, since without the game being released, CiG closing its doors, or the company becoming a target of whatever financial regulation institution is responsible for companies like CiG in the US, we'll never know what the company finances look like.

 

[BigM]

If this game gets made or not I sure hope crowdfunding changes where the company has to be more open with what money they have. They need to show where the money is going and how it is being spent. Not only to backers (if like CIG is doing still selling things) then to everyone who may be thinking of buying or not. I seen people say it is no one's business what CIG does with the money. If this is true and continues it is open to corruption. There has to be some way for the money to be tracked.

 

[Corralis]

Spoiler

To people who may know more then me:

On their website, stretch goals ended at 65 million dollars. Their 27 million above that now. Have they offered more for that 27 million, or is it pure bank for them?

This is another disturbing thing - According to what I'm reading, everything they were offering was supposed to be delivered at the, quite frankly, bargain bin price of 65 million dollars. Unless theres something I don't know.

It was stated that doing endless stretch goals was pointless since they kept on being broken through by the backers, that they would instead cease adding further stretch goals and that any additional monies would just be generally folded back into making the game better (for whatever value of "better" may be).

See, I do find that disturbing. Because if the money isn't being given to a specific goal, that means either one or some or all of the following is true:

1. Cloud Imperium really did fuck up their budgeting, and they desperately need this money to get everything they've already promised done.
2. Cloud Imperium wants your money, now, and this is no longer a crowd funding project, but simply the greatest money making scheme devised in gaming since DLC.
3. The current shop is simply a 'pay to win' system that has the audacity to exist before the game is even playable.

I would say it implies none of the above, and your conspiracy theories are pretty much without merit.

All it means is that the budget is ultimately going towards the game, which is where it's supposed to go in the first place. I mean if I went and said "oh well that's just cream on the top now" then you would have decried THAT and said "oh well that shows that they're just screwing customers out of their cash". Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Eventually a project has to stop adding new features and has to say "okay, well, we can now look to improving our current set of features to flesh them out further than we intended, and/or to go into further development post-release". Would you prefer that extra money WASN'T going towards the game? I don't really understand your logic.

I would prefer that if they have everything they need, they shut down the crowd funding system and get on with it. Like the majority of similar projects do.

If they have all the money they need, then keeping the shop open just to get more people involved is a financially dumb move, since the game is essentially 15+ dollars off right now. The only reason it is financially viable to keep it open is to sell ships, or 'free' products to produce, which they've told us wont be available when the game comes out (To buy, that is). To me, that's a very suspicious business model. 'Buy now, before there's a solid idea of whats going on, AND because all of this is a limited time offer.'

As for it going to the game, well, HOW? The game promised was a space sim with a massive universe, several different game play types, and of a quality (Audio and graphically) so amazing it would melt your computer and give you a joy boner. They talked extensively about how they were making a game that wasn't aimed at the lowest system, and would be mind blowing.

When that's your starting point, what could that 27 million possibly go towards? To use your wording, they were offering cream from the beginning. What possible cranny could they jam more cream into?

I would love for Star Citizen to come out and deliver on every promise. I would overjoyed to be forced to build a new PC to play it. But I can't find a single thing about the process right now that doesn't at least make me nervous. And, if your curious, I felt this way long before the Escapist articles brought these questions to the forefront.

A good example of the above is lets say at the 65 million dollar mark the acting would be motion capture, but now with the additional budget they can enhance that with full performance capture and all the extra tech that has been built around facial animation - enhancing what would have been normal mocap and turning it into something more impressive.

Note, I am only using the above as an example, I have no idea at what point performance capture was chosen over motion capture or whether motion capture was ever the original idea at all It is merely for the purposes of illustration.

Around 27 million is when mocap came up, I believe. Perhaps the 30s.

OK well I was going to stay quiet but I have to say something here.

What you have said above is remarkable, you think that when all the stretch goals ended at the 65 million mark they should have closed down the fund raising? Are you serious? That would have cost CIG $27 million and counting, doesn't seem like the best buisness strategy to me.

Also (and this is just a simple correction), you state that the original promise was a space sim with a massive universe, that is incorrect, the original promise was for a space sim with about 12 systems.

Now the original game was supposed to be fully funded at the 22 million mark, that was the point that they could make the original design of the game. So what have they added since then? Let's list them shall we?

Facial Capture system
Additional Alien ship
Public transportation system
Enhanced alpha
Enhanced capital ship systems
Additional Alien ship
Additional starter ship
Enhanced mission design for Squadron 42
6 Additional ships
6 additional systems
R&D into procedural Generation
Better Website
Better in-game interface (mobiglass)
Additional ship
Towel???
New suit of armor for all players
New map room for hanger
Weird artifact for players
Updated scanning software
Engine tuning kit for all players
New ship commercial
Space plant
Alien languages
Web-based universe map (currently online)
Mining drone
Independant Arbitrator's guild
More detailed AI
New ballistic gattling gun for all players
New liquid cooling system for ships
Additional ship
10,000 UEC for all players
Additional ship x5
Pets
Enhanced ship modularity (that's the big one)

And that's all after you got...

100 extra systems, full capital ship support, Oculus Rift support, second chapter of Squadron 42 for free, profesional motion capture, enhanced boarding options, increased ship customization, tablet companion, celebrity voice actors, 4th alien race, professional modding tools, expanded squadron 42, ship boarding, full FPS moddule, more community videos, professional sound studio, full orchastra score, command and control centre on Capital Ships, space station management and salvage mechanic role ability.

And none of the above was in the original design of the game pitched on kickstarter.

So when people complain about the game being delayed, just take a look at that list (which isn't even close to everything they have added, just the big things) and tell me you still think they should have finished the game in 2014.

 

[BigM]

@Corralis Exactly look at all that so when someone says they only have 8m left I tend to believe it and also think they just do not have the funds to even get close to finishing this game. Plus I have heard rumors the cryengine will not be able to make what CR wants to make. But then that is only rumor but I do believe they only have 8m left and that explains why they are so busy trying to sell more ships and get more pledges. Starting to think this game will never get done unless they bring in some big investor.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

Spoiler

To people who may know more then me:

On their website, stretch goals ended at 65 million dollars. Their 27 million above that now. Have they offered more for that 27 million, or is it pure bank for them?

This is another disturbing thing - According to what I'm reading, everything they were offering was supposed to be delivered at the, quite frankly, bargain bin price of 65 million dollars. Unless theres something I don't know.

It was stated that doing endless stretch goals was pointless since they kept on being broken through by the backers, that they would instead cease adding further stretch goals and that any additional monies would just be generally folded back into making the game better (for whatever value of "better" may be).

See, I do find that disturbing. Because if the money isn't being given to a specific goal, that means either one or some or all of the following is true:

1. Cloud Imperium really did fuck up their budgeting, and they desperately need this money to get everything they've already promised done.
2. Cloud Imperium wants your money, now, and this is no longer a crowd funding project, but simply the greatest money making scheme devised in gaming since DLC.
3. The current shop is simply a 'pay to win' system that has the audacity to exist before the game is even playable.

I would say it implies none of the above, and your conspiracy theories are pretty much without merit.

All it means is that the budget is ultimately going towards the game, which is where it's supposed to go in the first place. I mean if I went and said "oh well that's just cream on the top now" then you would have decried THAT and said "oh well that shows that they're just screwing customers out of their cash". Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Eventually a project has to stop adding new features and has to say "okay, well, we can now look to improving our current set of features to flesh them out further than we intended, and/or to go into further development post-release". Would you prefer that extra money WASN'T going towards the game? I don't really understand your logic.

I would prefer that if they have everything they need, they shut down the crowd funding system and get on with it. Like the majority of similar projects do.

If they have all the money they need, then keeping the shop open just to get more people involved is a financially dumb move, since the game is essentially 15+ dollars off right now. The only reason it is financially viable to keep it open is to sell ships, or 'free' products to produce, which they've told us wont be available when the game comes out (To buy, that is). To me, that's a very suspicious business model. 'Buy now, before there's a solid idea of whats going on, AND because all of this is a limited time offer.'

As for it going to the game, well, HOW? The game promised was a space sim with a massive universe, several different game play types, and of a quality (Audio and graphically) so amazing it would melt your computer and give you a joy boner. They talked extensively about how they were making a game that wasn't aimed at the lowest system, and would be mind blowing.

When that's your starting point, what could that 27 million possibly go towards? To use your wording, they were offering cream from the beginning. What possible cranny could they jam more cream into?

I would love for Star Citizen to come out and deliver on every promise. I would overjoyed to be forced to build a new PC to play it. But I can't find a single thing about the process right now that doesn't at least make me nervous. And, if your curious, I felt this way long before the Escapist articles brought these questions to the forefront.

A good example of the above is lets say at the 65 million dollar mark the acting would be motion capture, but now with the additional budget they can enhance that with full performance capture and all the extra tech that has been built around facial animation - enhancing what would have been normal mocap and turning it into something more impressive.

Note, I am only using the above as an example, I have no idea at what point performance capture was chosen over motion capture or whether motion capture was ever the original idea at all It is merely for the purposes of illustration.

Around 27 million is when mocap came up, I believe. Perhaps the 30s.

OK well I was going to stay quiet but I have to say something here.

What you have said above is remarkable, you think that when all the stretch goals ended at the 65 million mark they should have closed down the fund raising? Are you serious? That would have cost CIG $27 million and counting, doesn't seem like the best buisness strategy to me.

Also (and this is just a simple correction), you state that the original promise was a space sim with a massive universe, that is incorrect, the original promise was for a space sim with about 12 systems.

Now the original game was supposed to be fully funded at the 22 million mark, that was the point that they could make the original design of the game. So what have they added since then? Let's list them shall we?

Facial Capture system
Additional Alien ship
Public transportation system
Enhanced alpha
Enhanced capital ship systems
Additional Alien ship
Additional starter ship
Enhanced mission design for Squadron 42
6 Additional ships
6 additional systems
R&D into procedural Generation
Better Website
Better in-game interface (mobiglass)
Additional ship
Towel???
New suit of armor for all players
New map room for hanger
Weird artifact for players
Updated scanning software
Engine tuning kit for all players
New ship commercial
Space plant
Alien languages
Web-based universe map (currently online)
Mining drone
Independant Arbitrator's guild
More detailed AI
New ballistic gattling gun for all players
New liquid cooling system for ships
Additional ship
10,000 UEC for all players
Additional ship x5
Pets
Enhanced ship modularity (that's the big one)

And that's all after you got...

100 extra systems, full capital ship support, Oculus Rift support, second chapter of Squadron 42 for free, profesional motion capture, enhanced boarding options, increased ship customization, tablet companion, celebrity voice actors, 4th alien race, professional modding tools, expanded squadron 42, ship boarding, full FPS moddule, more community videos, professional sound studio, full orchastra score, command and control centre on Capital Ships, space station management and salvage mechanic role ability.

And none of the above was in the original design of the game pitched on kickstarter.

So when people complain about the game being delayed, just take a look at that list (which isn't even close to everything they have added, just the big things) and tell me you still think they should have finished the game in 2014.

You know, you could have just quoted me from earlier in the thread. I had that full list posted already (I didn't add the digital stuff though, since most of its trivial trash that has little financial input).

And they offered the massive universe (100 systems) at the 6mil mark. Which was part of the initial kickstarter (Plus their internal crowd funding system, which I can't recall what it was called at the time). Just for reference.

And mocap was at 10 million. I know you didn't ask that, but someone else was talking about it and my answer, which I pulled from memory, was way the hell off. Seems like a good time to correct myself.

As for the 27 million... of course its good business. They've made 27 million dollars off of assets that aren't available yet, and which don't actually cost them anything to make (As pretty much all the ships available were payed for already). But that's not really what my point was, is it? Cloud Imperium has kept their funding wide open, which is not how most crowd funding is done, and have absorbed 27 million dollars from backers with no specific goal. One option is that they need it, which means they planned poorly, and that's bad. The other is they don't, and their milking people for money and the game is going to be the most amazing game ever conceived of to date, with a budget that couldn't get a CoD based shooter off the ground.

Or it could be that other option, where this is a colossal wreck.

 

[Corralis]

@Corralis Exactly look at all that so when someone says they only have 8m left I tend to believe it and also think they just do not have the funds to even get close to finishing this game. Plus I have heard rumors the cryengine will not be able to make what CR wants to make. But then that is only rumor but I do believe they only have 8m left and that explains why they are so busy trying to sell more ships and get more pledges. Starting to think this game will never get done unless they bring in some big investor.

Who was it that said they only have 8m left? Also yes they are using Cry-Engine but they have modified to a point where Crytek no longer give them any support so in my opinion it might as well be a custom build engine.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

As for the 27 million... of course its good business. They've made 27 million dollars off of assets that aren't available yet, and which don't actually cost them anything to make (As pretty much all the ships available were payed for already). But that's not really what my point was, is it? Cloud Imperium has kept their funding wide open, which is not how most crowd funding is done, and have absorbed 27 million dollars from backers with no specific goal. One option is that they need it, which means they planned poorly, and that's bad. The other is they don't, and their milking people for money and the game is going to be the most amazing game ever conceived of to date, with a budget that couldn't get a CoD based shooter off the ground.

Or it could be that other option, where this is a colossal wreck.

Just on the subject of costs for games, think of GTA V and how much content it has and the cost of that game: $265 million. And then match that up with the scope of Star Citizen and the estimated development money so far... and then compare that to the fact that CIG isn't a company thats been around, nor do we know how long the development team has worked together... Rockstar has been a developmental force in the industry, CIG has never actually released a game and Chris Roberts' past games are not even a factor since he is not the entirety of the development team.
I'm not trying to be negative at all but its very VERY hard to conceive a game costing less than GTA V and having MORE than it.

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

snip

They might just be following the adage, "better a bird in hand than two in the bush."

What they've essentially said at this point is that they're using the current structure like pre-orders, with people able to buy the game early and get special access to ships and other materials. I disagree with the idea of pre-payment without a clear idea of the end product in general, and I think it's especially egregious to keep offering sales of hundreds of dollars worth of ships, but it doesn't inherently mean that the extended public funding is a sign of trouble.

Absorbing this money is IMO not a good practise, either for a business or for the industry in general to make acceptable, but it's not dishonest in and of itself. It's open to all the interpretations that you offer, but it could just be that they like money in their wallets with committed customers, as opposed to empty wallets and potential customers.

 

[Corralis]

Spoiler

Spoiler

To people who may know more then me:

On their website, stretch goals ended at 65 million dollars. Their 27 million above that now. Have they offered more for that 27 million, or is it pure bank for them?

This is another disturbing thing - According to what I'm reading, everything they were offering was supposed to be delivered at the, quite frankly, bargain bin price of 65 million dollars. Unless theres something I don't know.

It was stated that doing endless stretch goals was pointless since they kept on being broken through by the backers, that they would instead cease adding further stretch goals and that any additional monies would just be generally folded back into making the game better (for whatever value of "better" may be).

See, I do find that disturbing. Because if the money isn't being given to a specific goal, that means either one or some or all of the following is true:

1. Cloud Imperium really did fuck up their budgeting, and they desperately need this money to get everything they've already promised done.
2. Cloud Imperium wants your money, now, and this is no longer a crowd funding project, but simply the greatest money making scheme devised in gaming since DLC.
3. The current shop is simply a 'pay to win' system that has the audacity to exist before the game is even playable.

I would say it implies none of the above, and your conspiracy theories are pretty much without merit.

All it means is that the budget is ultimately going towards the game, which is where it's supposed to go in the first place. I mean if I went and said "oh well that's just cream on the top now" then you would have decried THAT and said "oh well that shows that they're just screwing customers out of their cash". Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Eventually a project has to stop adding new features and has to say "okay, well, we can now look to improving our current set of features to flesh them out further than we intended, and/or to go into further development post-release". Would you prefer that extra money WASN'T going towards the game? I don't really understand your logic.

I would prefer that if they have everything they need, they shut down the crowd funding system and get on with it. Like the majority of similar projects do.

If they have all the money they need, then keeping the shop open just to get more people involved is a financially dumb move, since the game is essentially 15+ dollars off right now. The only reason it is financially viable to keep it open is to sell ships, or 'free' products to produce, which they've told us wont be available when the game comes out (To buy, that is). To me, that's a very suspicious business model. 'Buy now, before there's a solid idea of whats going on, AND because all of this is a limited time offer.'

As for it going to the game, well, HOW? The game promised was a space sim with a massive universe, several different game play types, and of a quality (Audio and graphically) so amazing it would melt your computer and give you a joy boner. They talked extensively about how they were making a game that wasn't aimed at the lowest system, and would be mind blowing.

When that's your starting point, what could that 27 million possibly go towards? To use your wording, they were offering cream from the beginning. What possible cranny could they jam more cream into?

I would love for Star Citizen to come out and deliver on every promise. I would overjoyed to be forced to build a new PC to play it. But I can't find a single thing about the process right now that doesn't at least make me nervous. And, if your curious, I felt this way long before the Escapist articles brought these questions to the forefront.

A good example of the above is lets say at the 65 million dollar mark the acting would be motion capture, but now with the additional budget they can enhance that with full performance capture and all the extra tech that has been built around facial animation - enhancing what would have been normal mocap and turning it into something more impressive.

Note, I am only using the above as an example, I have no idea at what point performance capture was chosen over motion capture or whether motion capture was ever the original idea at all It is merely for the purposes of illustration.

Around 27 million is when mocap came up, I believe. Perhaps the 30s.

OK well I was going to stay quiet but I have to say something here.

What you have said above is remarkable, you think that when all the stretch goals ended at the 65 million mark they should have closed down the fund raising? Are you serious? That would have cost CIG $27 million and counting, doesn't seem like the best buisness strategy to me.

Also (and this is just a simple correction), you state that the original promise was a space sim with a massive universe, that is incorrect, the original promise was for a space sim with about 12 systems.

Now the original game was supposed to be fully funded at the 22 million mark, that was the point that they could make the original design of the game. So what have they added since then? Let's list them shall we?

Facial Capture system
Additional Alien ship
Public transportation system
Enhanced alpha
Enhanced capital ship systems
Additional Alien ship
Additional starter ship
Enhanced mission design for Squadron 42
6 Additional ships
6 additional systems
R&D into procedural Generation
Better Website
Better in-game interface (mobiglass)
Additional ship
Towel???
New suit of armor for all players
New map room for hanger
Weird artifact for players
Updated scanning software
Engine tuning kit for all players
New ship commercial
Space plant
Alien languages
Web-based universe map (currently online)
Mining drone
Independant Arbitrator's guild
More detailed AI
New ballistic gattling gun for all players
New liquid cooling system for ships
Additional ship
10,000 UEC for all players
Additional ship x5
Pets
Enhanced ship modularity (that's the big one)

And that's all after you got...

100 extra systems, full capital ship support, Oculus Rift support, second chapter of Squadron 42 for free, profesional motion capture, enhanced boarding options, increased ship customization, tablet companion, celebrity voice actors, 4th alien race, professional modding tools, expanded squadron 42, ship boarding, full FPS moddule, more community videos, professional sound studio, full orchastra score, command and control centre on Capital Ships, space station management and salvage mechanic role ability.

And none of the above was in the original design of the game pitched on kickstarter.

So when people complain about the game being delayed, just take a look at that list (which isn't even close to everything they have added, just the big things) and tell me you still think they should have finished the game in 2014.

You know, you could have just quoted me from earlier in the thread. I had that full list posted already (I didn't add the digital stuff though, since most of its trivial trash that has little financial input).

And they offered the massive universe (100 systems) at the 6mil mark. Which was part of the initial kickstarter (Plus their internal crowd funding system, which I can't recall what it was called at the time). Just for reference.

And mocap was at 10 million. I know you didn't ask that, but someone else was talking about it and my answer, which I pulled from memory, was way the hell off. Seems like a good time to correct myself.

As for the 27 million... of course its good business. They've made 27 million dollars off of assets that aren't available yet, and which don't actually cost them anything to make (As pretty much all the ships available were payed for already). But that's not really what my point was, is it? Cloud Imperium has kept their funding wide open, which is not how most crowd funding is done, and have absorbed 27 million dollars from backers with no specific goal. One option is that they need it, which means they planned poorly, and that's bad. The other is they don't, and their milking people for money and the game is going to be the most amazing game ever conceived of to date, with a budget that couldn't get a CoD based shooter off the ground.

Or it could be that other option, where this is a colossal wreck.

OK seriously dude, you need to stop talking cause your facts are way off. The original kickstarter was for 2 million which means that the 100 systems was not in the kickstarter.

Mocap was actually at 5.5 million, but when they got to 10 million they built their own studio.

The ships cost a massive amount of money to make (quoted by chris at over $150k each for the single seat fighters).

Chris made a massive post when the crowd funding goal reached 65 million. In it he stated that they could continue coming up with new stretch goals but he didn't want to keep adding more stuff to the game and wanted to knuckle down and just get everything promised up to that point in the game and working. This was very well received on the RSI website as a great idea.

I know 'other' crowd-funded projects would stop asking for money but as we all know, Star Citizen is not like any other crowd-funded project.

Are they milking people for more money? If that's your opinion the that's fine but if people are willing to give them more money then I don't see the problem. When they release a new ship's concept sale they are only doing those for ships that have already been announced with the stretch goals, they aren't adding in stuff that they haven't told anyone about with the possible exception of the Vanduul ships (the Scythe being for kickstarter backers only and the Glaive being purchaseable if you completed Arena Commander's 18 waves). Also I think we have now had all the ships from the stretch goals announced and sold so that basically ends now.