Citizen-Con 2015 (Star Citizen)

[Corralis]

Yeah, we don't know how much money is left, but you know what we do know? We know that Chris Roberts has a history of mismanaging projects. And we know that he has, before SC, not worked in the games industry in a long time. Those are cold, hard facts. So excuse me if I don't trust his word when he says that he is not mismanaging this project.

Frankly, this whole thing is starting to look like Broken Age all over again, except broken age was much less ambitious.

Well known and respected developer with a game record going back about 20 years? check.
Raised a ton of money through crowdfunding, far more then original goals? check.
Game release delayed significantly? check.
Game ultimately disappointing after increased funding and delays? True for Broken Age, pending on Star Citizen.....

There's also the fact Broken age was an old school adventure game while Star Citizen wants to be an entirely new type of game altogether and Double Fine had other games under it's belt before working on Broken Age, while CIG is a new company.

I can't be the first one to see the parallels here.

Do you guys tear other Indie developers apart before they have released their first game or is CIG special in some way?

I just don't get why people have a problem with the game being delayed. It's being made better because we gave it so much money, why is that a bad thing?

Well, most indies don't have a AAA budget and are promising the largest scale super-space simulator MMO ever created.

So yeah, CIG are a bit special comparatively. That said, I don't think that they're really that special compared to other indies. If you've been keeping an eye on other crowdfunded projects, the backers have always been rather critical and observant of how they're going. Look at everything surrounding Mighty No. 9.

People being incredibly critical and watchdog-y about how the crowdfunded project isn't unique to Star Citizen, though I think people are comparatively more harsh because it's trying to be so big and revolutionary.

I can understand a little bit of critism but Star Citizen has received some intense hatred and even going as far as making some pretty hateful allegations towards some of the employee's. This isn't typical internet critism, some of this stuff could be argued to be a full on hate campaign. I just don't think CIG deserve it.

 

[Areloch]

I can understand a little bit of critism but Star Citizen has received some intense hatred and even going as far as making some pretty hateful allegations towards some of the employee's. This isn't typical internet critism, some of this stuff could be argued to be a full on hate campaign. I just don't think CIG deserve it.

I couldn't say, I haven't followed the Star Citizen very deeply, and honestly forgot about it until this recent deal. I'm willing to bet a lot of it is your standard internet tribalism though.

Star Citizen fans by and large seem to be incredibly defensive about the project for whatever particular, personal reason they have, so they can get uppity if someone smack talks the project. This in turn gets the people that aren't that impressed with it to flare up more, which makes SC fans more defensive and repeat until you have a small internet war.

Remember, this is the internet where a CoD developer can get death threats for an update to the game that made one sniper rifle a tenth of a second slower to fire. Some people are just overly uppity.
If you're not personally concerned about how the project is doing, just present your points in a reasonable way and most people will accept that, even if they disagree - especially on this site. Disagreements here tend to be a lot more civil - even at their worst - than most of the rest of the internet.
Worst case, they never agree with you and you just gotta move on.

 

[EternallyBored]

I can understand a little bit of critism but Star Citizen has received some intense hatred and even going as far as making some pretty hateful allegations towards some of the employee's. This isn't typical internet critism, some of this stuff could be argued to be a full on hate campaign. I just don't think CIG deserve it.

This is honestly a lot less intense than the usual internet criticism, as are loch said, normal Internet criticism to even the most trivial things or grievances is often way worse than anything CIG has gotten. Seriously, Valve got a boycott campaign for removing a bonus holiday event in DOTA 2, 60 thousand people signed a petition to try and get Anita Sarkeesian removed from the development of Mirror's edge 2 based off of a blog post that turned out to be completely false, even just in the escapist, the ME 3 ending controversy drew far more ire and hate than CIG, outside of the article, this is like the only star citizen related topic on the forum.

Some of the SC fans come off really overly defensive, CIG gets cut a lot of slack even other indie devs don't, the skull girls developers had to create a half hour long video where they had to justify themselves to people that think their 1.5 million dollar indiegogo campaign for indivisible was asking for too much money, or that they didn't need that much because they already had a functioning demo. Indie devs regularly get reamed or slammed with refund requests for missing deadlines, where CIG gets sympathy and even more money thrown at it. Does it deserve all the hate it gets? No, but then neither do any of the other numerous instances that happen every time gamers with too much free time get a bug up their ass about something.

The only thing CIG really doesn't deserve is Derek Smart, mainly because nobody deserves to have to deal with that lunatic.

 

[Dalisclock]

Do you guys tear other Indie developers apart before they have released their first game or is CIG special in some way?

I just don't get why people have a problem with the game being delayed. It's being made better because we gave it so much money, why is that a bad thing?

It's the hype thing. For me, and I suspect a lot of other people, the more hype something gets, especially from a dev without a track record, the more wary I start to get. Especially when the hype and logistics/resources start looking incompatible with each other. If CIG was just making a space sim or an FPS, or had a track record of making similar games for the past couple years that got fairly good reviews, I think people would be more or less willing to give the game the benefit of the doubt. Hell, I gave Double Fine a lot of leeway until Broken Age(which raised a fuckton more then they originally asked for and then still proceeded to delay the 2nd half of the game for a year with nothing particularly interesting to show for it) and that broken-ass spacebase game they never finished. The goodwill they had with me is gone now. I'm not buying anything more from them unless I see a good, completed product.

Somewhere in my mind I still hope that Valve will release Ep. 3, but I've more or less accepted that's probably never gonna happen. I'm sure as hell not gonna pre-order it if it is announced.

The fact that some fans seem to treat any criticism as a conspiracy against them and CIG also annoys me, just as conspiracy theorists in general annoy me. I'm also concerned about the allegations of abusive working conditions by the former CIG employees and that they should be looked into. Nobody should have to work under abusive conditions and CIG shouldn't be rewarded if it's true.

Other then that it's mostly academic, as I have never invested money in the game and at this point probably never will. If it ends up releasing and living up to the hype(which at this point is going to be extremely difficult), I'll throw down for a copy. But not before then.

OTOH, if the game ends up being a buggy, incomplete mess, I've lost nothing. CIG, on the other hand, I will feel a little pity for(a very small amount), because they will have to face the backlash and ire of their fanbase.

Edited for content.

 

[Davroth]

Do you guys tear other Indie developers apart before they have released their first game or is CIG special in some way?

I just don't get why people have a problem with the game being delayed. It's being made better because we gave it so much money, why is that a bad thing?

Being indie doesn't absolve you from criticism. And this isn't Chris Robert's first game. Again, he has a history of mismanaging projects. Something you seem to want to ignore.

Much like you think that "we" are too harsh on SC, I think you can't look past your rose-tinted glasses. The only reason anyone is even talking about this anymore is because of the rabid fans who came here to defend SC's and Chris Robert's honour.

I can understand a little bit of critism but Star Citizen has received some intense hatred and even going as far as making some pretty hateful allegations towards some of the employee's. This isn't typical internet critism, some of this stuff could be argued to be a full on hate campaign. I just don't think CIG deserve it.

Actually, saying that a kickstarter game might be mismanaged is pretty damn typical criticism, and those "hateful allegations" as you put it were made by former employees of CIG. How do you know they are not true? Because I don't. I can't. And you can't either. Where were you when the allegations about the terrible work conditions at Konami surfaced? Would you have called that undue criticism as well? Former employees make allegations, they get quoted by a journalistic outlet. So far, there's nothing untypical here.

You know what's not typical? People registering dozens of new accounts and fill the comments threads of said journalistic outlet with hundreds upon hundreds of comments dismissing any criticism of their beloved game. You might not have, but droves of your fellow 'citizens' did.

 

[Corralis]

Do you guys tear other Indie developers apart before they have released their first game or is CIG special in some way?

I just don't get why people have a problem with the game being delayed. It's being made better because we gave it so much money, why is that a bad thing?

Being indie doesn't absolve you from criticism. And this isn't Chris Robert's first game. Again, he has a history of mismanaging projects. Something you seem to want to ignore.

Much like you think that "we" are too harsh on SC, I think you can't look past your rose-tinted glasses. The only reason anyone is even talking about this anymore is because of the rabid fans who came here to defend SC's and Chris Robert's honour.

I can understand a little bit of critism but Star Citizen has received some intense hatred and even going as far as making some pretty hateful allegations towards some of the employee's. This isn't typical internet critism, some of this stuff could be argued to be a full on hate campaign. I just don't think CIG deserve it.

Actually, saying that a kickstarter game might be mismanaged is pretty damn typical criticism, and those "hateful allegations" as you put it were made by former employees of CIG. How do you know they are not true? Because I don't. I can't. And you can't either. Where were you when the allegations about the terrible work conditions at Konami surfaced? Would you have called that undue criticism as well? Former employees make allegations, they get quoted by a journalistic outlet. So far, there's nothing untypical here.

You know what's not typical? People registering dozens of new accounts and fill the comments threads of said journalistic outlet with hundreds upon hundreds of comments dismissing any criticism of their beloved game. You might not have, but droves of your fellow 'citizens' did.

I may have these rose-tinted galsses on you say but you know what, the people that hate Star Citizen have 3 complaints that they are latching onto and not letting go. Time delays, money and what Chris Roberts did 15 years ago, ffs get over it, it's been explained countless times and still you keep bringing it up as if it's the only thing you can think of to criticise.

 

[Dinadan]

Do you guys tear other Indie developers apart before they have released their first game or is CIG special in some way?

I just don't get why people have a problem with the game being delayed. It's being made better because we gave it so much money, why is that a bad thing?

Being indie doesn't absolve you from criticism. And this isn't Chris Robert's first game. Again, he has a history of mismanaging projects. Something you seem to want to ignore.

Much like you think that "we" are too harsh on SC, I think you can't look past your rose-tinted glasses. The only reason anyone is even talking about this anymore is because of the rabid fans who came here to defend SC's and Chris Robert's honour.

I can understand a little bit of critism but Star Citizen has received some intense hatred and even going as far as making some pretty hateful allegations towards some of the employee's. This isn't typical internet critism, some of this stuff could be argued to be a full on hate campaign. I just don't think CIG deserve it.

Actually, saying that a kickstarter game might be mismanaged is pretty damn typical criticism, and those "hateful allegations" as you put it were made by former employees of CIG. How do you know they are not true? Because I don't. I can't. And you can't either. Where were you when the allegations about the terrible work conditions at Konami surfaced? Would you have called that undue criticism as well? Former employees make allegations, they get quoted by a journalistic outlet. So far, there's nothing untypical here.

You know what's not typical? People registering dozens of new accounts and fill the comments threads of said journalistic outlet with hundreds upon hundreds of comments dismissing any criticism of their beloved game. You might not have, but droves of your fellow 'citizens' did.

I may have these rose-tinted galsses on you say but you know what, the people that hate Star Citizen have 3 complaints that they are latching onto and not letting go. Time delays, money and what Chris Roberts did 15 years ago, ffs get over it, it's been explained countless times and still you keep bringing it up as if it's the only thing you can think of to criticise.

Actually, there have been four longer forum threads concerning Star Citizen and CIG. Three of which were the threads by the articles themselves (Lizzy's two articles and the Escapist's position in this situation). This is the first longer thread in the forum's not based on an article and even then it's based on an event, namely the CitizenCon. I don't know how many smaller threads there are, I haven't seen one, but then I haven't searched for them either. This is less 'not getting over it' and more 'reacting to news'.

As to why the same three points get brought up again and again? Probably because they have not been addressed to everyone's satisfaction. It's 'he said, she said' with no proof to go around. It's not like there is no fertile ground for these accusations, though. With Chris Roberts having a bit of a history, the frankly horrifying ship sales and the way they responded to the second article. None of these are even evidence, only things that might indicate that something is off, thus the skepticism.

 

[isotope]

Isn't it cool how if anyone says anything against SC or CR, it brings out the attack dogs! They attack for a game that isn't even made yet, you have to admit it is amazing! I don't put a lot into anything DS says but it is also amazing the employee's from The Escapist article sure says the exact same stuff DS said. So I guess it is true DS did talk to employee's that told him the same things, amazing.

AMAZING!

Maybe we feel we have to defend this 'game that isn't even made yet' because people are complaining about the game not being very good when it is in ALPHA. Now I don't think that blindly defending Star Citizen is a good thing to do, I have watched the game grow with interest and I defend it when people say stuff like 'The flight controls are crap', 'The graphics are crap', 'The FPS looks like crap'. Well I actually think that the game looks amazing and has far better graphics than any game currently on the market and I respond to people who lay hate on the game because IT'S IN ALPHA!!!!

For some reason I genuinly think I have to at least attempt to correct some peoples belief's regarding Star Citizen and I actually don't like having to do it but it angers me when I hear stuff like this because the game IS IN ALPHA!!!!

All the stuff people complain about can be argued away by saying those 3 little words.

Ahh one more time, why not... IT'S IN ALPHA!!!!!

Well yeah, I know. That's also what you hear about Line of Defense. "It's in Alpha! Don't complain!" (or you get banned)
Can you believe LoD has been in aplha for 5 years now? Geez. And it seems like the developer is half retired and only works on it in his spare time despite ppl having actually pre-purchased it.

 

[Corralis]

Isn't it cool how if anyone says anything against SC or CR, it brings out the attack dogs! They attack for a game that isn't even made yet, you have to admit it is amazing! I don't put a lot into anything DS says but it is also amazing the employee's from The Escapist article sure says the exact same stuff DS said. So I guess it is true DS did talk to employee's that told him the same things, amazing.

AMAZING!

Maybe we feel we have to defend this 'game that isn't even made yet' because people are complaining about the game not being very good when it is in ALPHA. Now I don't think that blindly defending Star Citizen is a good thing to do, I have watched the game grow with interest and I defend it when people say stuff like 'The flight controls are crap', 'The graphics are crap', 'The FPS looks like crap'. Well I actually think that the game looks amazing and has far better graphics than any game currently on the market and I respond to people who lay hate on the game because IT'S IN ALPHA!!!!

For some reason I genuinly think I have to at least attempt to correct some peoples belief's regarding Star Citizen and I actually don't like having to do it but it angers me when I hear stuff like this because the game IS IN ALPHA!!!!

All the stuff people complain about can be argued away by saying those 3 little words.

Ahh one more time, why not... IT'S IN ALPHA!!!!!

Well yeah, I know. That's also what you hear about Line of Defense. "It's in Alpha! Don't complain!" (or you get banned)
Can you believe LoD has been in aplha for 5 years now? Geez. And it seems like the developer is half retired and only works on it in his spare time despite ppl having actually pre-purchased it.

Is Derek Smart semi-retired? Seems to me that he should focus on his 'game' and not in finding more and more implusable ways of tying CIG up in litigation.

 

[Corralis]

Do you guys tear other Indie developers apart before they have released their first game or is CIG special in some way?

I just don't get why people have a problem with the game being delayed. It's being made better because we gave it so much money, why is that a bad thing?

Being indie doesn't absolve you from criticism. And this isn't Chris Robert's first game. Again, he has a history of mismanaging projects. Something you seem to want to ignore.

Much like you think that "we" are too harsh on SC, I think you can't look past your rose-tinted glasses. The only reason anyone is even talking about this anymore is because of the rabid fans who came here to defend SC's and Chris Robert's honour.

I can understand a little bit of critism but Star Citizen has received some intense hatred and even going as far as making some pretty hateful allegations towards some of the employee's. This isn't typical internet critism, some of this stuff could be argued to be a full on hate campaign. I just don't think CIG deserve it.

Actually, saying that a kickstarter game might be mismanaged is pretty damn typical criticism, and those "hateful allegations" as you put it were made by former employees of CIG. How do you know they are not true? Because I don't. I can't. And you can't either. Where were you when the allegations about the terrible work conditions at Konami surfaced? Would you have called that undue criticism as well? Former employees make allegations, they get quoted by a journalistic outlet. So far, there's nothing untypical here.

You know what's not typical? People registering dozens of new accounts and fill the comments threads of said journalistic outlet with hundreds upon hundreds of comments dismissing any criticism of their beloved game. You might not have, but droves of your fellow 'citizens' did.

I may have these rose-tinted galsses on you say but you know what, the people that hate Star Citizen have 3 complaints that they are latching onto and not letting go. Time delays, money and what Chris Roberts did 15 years ago, ffs get over it, it's been explained countless times and still you keep bringing it up as if it's the only thing you can think of to criticise.

Actually, there have been four longer forum threads concerning Star Citizen and CIG. Three of which were the threads by the articles themselves (Lizzy's two articles and the Escapist's position in this situation). This is the first longer thread in the forum's not based on an article and even then it's based on an event, namely the CitizenCon. I don't know how many smaller threads there are, I haven't seen one, but then I haven't searched for them either. This is less 'not getting over it' and more 'reacting to news'.

As to why the same three points get brought up again and again? Probably because they have not been addressed to everyone's satisfaction. It's 'he said, she said' with no proof to go around. It's not like there is no fertile ground for these accusations, though. With Chris Roberts having a bit of a history, the frankly horrifying ship sales and the way they responded to the second article. None of these are even evidence, only things that might indicate that something is off, thus the skepticism.

I actually don't agree with this, I think people have been given plenty of answers that should satify them but they refuse to listen to them for whatever reason they have (I get it's the internet and people don't have to listen to reason if they don't want to).

But hey here's the short answers to those 3 points above:

Time delays - The game has had an insane amount of extra content added since it's conception and that takes time, a lot of time. The game will be out by the end of 2016 though (I'm at least 95% certain of that).

Chris Roberts past - It's his past and has only a minor reflection on his future. Can anyone here say they have never made a mistake in their life? Do you continue to make the same mistake's or do you learn from them and get better? I would argue that our capacity to learn comes from making mistake's.

Money - Baseless argument with no real evidence of CIG's finances. When they release their finances we can have a good ol' conversation about it but they never will and nor should they. Now if CIG was, or becomes a publicly traded company sometime in the future (unlikely but possible), then you can ask for that information.

There you go, all the answers that anyone will some common sense should ever need.

Actually Dinadan, I think you may have touched on another issue I have seen people bring up and that's the ship sales, it seems a lot of the people aren't happy with the price of some of the ships (I say some because some of the ships I think are reasonably priced). Now I know that some of the ships are very expensive (was it $1500 for the Idris Frigate)? You know what though, I didn't buy them because I'm not that rich, but have you seen the size of that thing, it's huge and quite possibly worth the money but the thing about worth is that all the Idris' that were put up for sale sold almost instantly and that means that it was worth the asking price because if it was deemed to be too expensive then people simply would not have bought it. Hell some people bought multiple Idris', my alliance has at least 10 of them as well as some $2000 Javelin Destroyers. The main reason I didn't get one though is that I don't enjoy the idea of flying around in a capital ship, I've tried it in other games and I didn't really find it all that entertaining. Personally I have bought a fighter, a heavy fighter and a gunship/troop transport all at prices I had no issue with. If your the kind of person that doesn't have a lot of money to spare, then buy the starter ship for like $30 and earn evrything else in-game. Every ship is purchasable with in-game currency (with the possible exception of the military ships but that's explained in the lore of the game (civilians would never be allowed all the really cool shit)).

 

[EternallyBored]

Isn't it cool how if anyone says anything against SC or CR, it brings out the attack dogs! They attack for a game that isn't even made yet, you have to admit it is amazing! I don't put a lot into anything DS says but it is also amazing the employee's from The Escapist article sure says the exact same stuff DS said. So I guess it is true DS did talk to employee's that told him the same things, amazing.

AMAZING!

Maybe we feel we have to defend this 'game that isn't even made yet' because people are complaining about the game not being very good when it is in ALPHA. Now I don't think that blindly defending Star Citizen is a good thing to do, I have watched the game grow with interest and I defend it when people say stuff like 'The flight controls are crap', 'The graphics are crap', 'The FPS looks like crap'. Well I actually think that the game looks amazing and has far better graphics than any game currently on the market and I respond to people who lay hate on the game because IT'S IN ALPHA!!!!

For some reason I genuinly think I have to at least attempt to correct some peoples belief's regarding Star Citizen and I actually don't like having to do it but it angers me when I hear stuff like this because the game IS IN ALPHA!!!!

All the stuff people complain about can be argued away by saying those 3 little words.

Ahh one more time, why not... IT'S IN ALPHA!!!!!

Well yeah, I know. That's also what you hear about Line of Defense. "It's in Alpha! Don't complain!" (or you get banned)
Can you believe LoD has been in aplha for 5 years now? Geez. And it seems like the developer is half retired and only works on it in his spare time despite ppl having actually pre-purchased it.

Yes yes, we get it, Derek Smart is a bigger failed developer than even the worst Chris Roberts or Star citizen could be, it was an amusing quip the first time or two, now your just driving the joke into the ground.

Line of defense is worse than star citizen even if CIG shuts down tomorrow and the only thing left is the hangar module and arena commander, just because there are worse games out there does not invalidate concerns or criticism against CIG. Nobody is talking about Smart's game because nobody actually wants to play that pile of shit, people do want to play a decent Wing Commander/Freelancer style game.

If we just criticized the worst games ever, we would never stop talking about whatever shitty Steam Greenlight games were up at any given moment, people tend to criticize things that there is at least a snowball's chance in hell of them actually wanting to play at some point. There is some potential that CIG may actually make a game in some distant future worth paying actual money for. LOD is not worth the time and effort to criticize it the way people do Star a Citizen because it never had that potential to begin with.

 

[Politrukk]

This game can go three ways.

1 become legendary (think WoW like proportions relative to the time).
2 become a dud (think of The Old Republic MMO).
3 not just fail but bankrupt a lot of people becoming a new breaking point in consumer trust in videogame companies.

 

[Dinadan]

snip

See, you believe in them and to you these wishy-washy explanations are satisfactory. Feature creep, when a project takes longer cause you want 'all the things' in it, is not an explanation to some, it's a red flag. Over-ambitious visions have ruined many games, Daikatan or 'Duke Nuke'm forever' for example.

And in what kind of world do you live? Sorry for being so hostile, but yes other people do mistakes. And yes these mistakes are still hounding them regularly. I for example was refused jobs because of mistakes. When a normal guy screws up like that, that can be a black mark for a very long time. Forgive and forget is something that doesn't often apply when it comes to money. At least it doesn't to the majority of people.

The money thing is purely 'he said, she said'. Former employee's said the money is getting scarce, CIG says the opposite. Neither has presented evidence. So why does it persist? For the reasons people have explained to you repeatedly, like that 'smaller' games (Witcher 3 isn't exactly small, but it might as well be considering SC's goals) from better prepared studios have cost more money.

And the ships? I loathe that they can be bought. I'm already not happy that pre-order bonuses exist as they are and this is like 'whale-hunting' in pay-to-win games, only without even a product released. It works, but that doesn't make it something I'll ever consider a good thing. Lot's of people had asked what would be if EA or Activision Blizzard or Ubisoft would try that. And we all know the answer to that one, don't we?

 

[Corralis]

snip

See, you believe in them and to you these wishy-washy explanations are satisfactory. Feature creep, when a project takes longer cause you want 'all the things' in it, is not an explanation to some, it's a red flag. Over-ambitious visions have ruined many games, Daikatan or 'Duke Nuke'm forever' for example.

And in what kind of world do you live? Sorry for being so hostile, but yes other people do mistakes. And yes these mistakes are still hounding them regularly. I for example was refused jobs because of mistakes. When a normal guy screws up like that, that can be a black mark for a very long time. Forgive and forget is something that doesn't often apply when it comes to money. At least it doesn't to the majority of people.

The money thing is purely 'he said, she said'. Former employee's said the money is getting scarce, CIG says the opposite. Neither has presented evidence. So why does it persist? For the reasons people have explained to you repeatedly, like that 'smaller' games (Witcher 3 isn't exactly small, but it might as well be considering SC's goals) from better prepared studios have cost more money.

And the ships? I loathe that they can be bought. I'm already not happy that pre-order bonuses exist as they are and this is like 'whale-hunting' in pay-to-win games, only without even a product released. It works, but that doesn't make it something I'll ever consider a good thing. Lot's of people had asked what would be if EA or Activision Blizzard or Ubisoft would try that. And we all know the answer to that one, don't we?

Point 1: Yes those explanations were 'wishy-washy' but they were just the short versions of the same argument's I have raised several time in this forum and that's why I didn't want to waste your time (and mine) by writing out a more detailed post.

Point 2: Yes you are being overly aggresive considering I was taking you seriously to begin with and wanted to have a reasonable conversation with you. As for what world I live in, well the same one as you my friend. I have made mistakes, I have made a lot of mistakes. What defines me is that I learn from them and do everything in my power to not make them again (doesn't mean I won't, just that I try not to).

Point 3: Totally agree, no point in arguing here cause we don't have enough info. Again I have said this several times during this forum's life but the whole premise that (understandably) bitter ex-employee's are saying that CIG are running out of money and yet provide no evidence of this makes me raise a few red flags of my own and I would have thought that the same flags should have been visible to the person that wrote The Escapist's article. Have you ever seen The Newsroom? The entire second series shows what happens to jounalist's that don't get enough evidence before releasing a story.

Point 4: Why do you have a problem with ships being able to be bought? No one is making you buy one and it only provides a bonus over other players if you consider that it gives them a head-start over others. The ships aren't more powerful, you can buy them with in-game money when the game is released (note I say 'when' not 'if'), hell you can even steal them if you want. All people are doing is funding a game that they are passionate about. Are they too expensive? Yea maybe but I've already spoken about the worth of a ship above so I won't repeat myself.

 

[Dinadan]

Point 1: Yes those explanations were 'wishy-washy' but they were just the short versions of the same argument's I have raised several time in this forum and that's why I didn't want to waste your time (and mine) by writing out a more detailed post.

Point 2: Yes you are being overly aggresive considering I was taking you seriously to begin with and wanted to have a reasonable conversation with you. As for what world I live in, well the same one as you my friend. I have made mistakes, I have made a lot of mistakes. What defines me is that I learn from them and do everything in my power to not make them again (doesn't mean I won't, just that I try not to).

Point 3: Totally agree, no point in arguing here cause we don't have enough info. Again I have said this several times during this forum's life but the whole premise that (understandably) bitter ex-employee's are saying that CIG are running out of money and yet provide no evidence of this makes me raise a few red flags of my own and I would have thought that the same flags should have been visible to the person that wrote The Escapist's article. Have you ever seen The Newsroom? The entire second series shows what happens to jounalist's that don't get enough evidence before releasing a story.

Point 4: Why do you have a problem with ships being able to be bought? No one is making you buy one and it only provides a bonus over other players if you consider that it gives them a head-start over others. The ships aren't more powerful, you can buy them with in-game money when the game is released (note I say 'when' not 'if'), hell you can even steal them if you want. All people are doing is funding a game that they are passionate about. Are they too expensive? Yea maybe but I've already spoken about the worth of a ship above so I won't repeat myself.

Taking me serious or not, you didn't address the point. You said you made mistakes and learned from them, but that doesn't mean those mistakes are gone or forgotten. Freelancer has not been the only time Chris Roberts has proven that he can promise a lot, but can't deliver. That is the main reason I stayed away from the kickstarter. I don't trust a studio that puts a proven windbag in charge. His idea are admittedly great, but ideas and money alone make no product. CIG would be better served by his brother Erin, who is also working there, but seems to have less sway. Erin Roberts is twice the manager, though not even half the visionary.

That directly ties into the money trouble. Yes, there is no 'hard' evidence only the claims of ex-employees, but it's not like this would be the first time Roberts mismanaged a product. That's why doubt has taken root. It simply wouldn't be the first time this happened.

Let's ignore that this is essentially pay-to-win before the game is even out. It's the worst of the two shady world's of DLC and pre-order bonus bundled into one. Paying to unlock content and only being able to do so before release, coupled with 'short time only' deals, which is a cheap marketing ploy aimed at the short term thinking people do. But until now it has only been done with actual products not with 'IOU'. I'm hoping that EA or Activision never see that this shit can fly and start to sell max-level and perks for their yearly shooter.
Also, I don't doubt that it'll be released. I just doubt it'll be released in anything like the condition Chris Roberts has promised.

Edit: I'm not the first person to argue with you and probably won't be the last, but we are both wasting our time. You are inherently optimistic of CIG's work and I'm inherently skeptical of their work. It's entirely irrelevant how good our points are, we'll never meet in the middle

 

[EternallyBored]

Point 1: Yes those explanations were 'wishy-washy' but they were just the short versions of the same argument's I have raised several time in this forum and that's why I didn't want to waste your time (and mine) by writing out a more detailed post.

Point 2: Yes you are being overly aggresive considering I was taking you seriously to begin with and wanted to have a reasonable conversation with you. As for what world I live in, well the same one as you my friend. I have made mistakes, I have made a lot of mistakes. What defines me is that I learn from them and do everything in my power to not make them again (doesn't mean I won't, just that I try not to).

Point 3: Totally agree, no point in arguing here cause we don't have enough info. Again I have said this several times during this forum's life but the whole premise that (understandably) bitter ex-employee's are saying that CIG are running out of money and yet provide no evidence of this makes me raise a few red flags of my own and I would have thought that the same flags should have been visible to the person that wrote The Escapist's article. Have you ever seen The Newsroom? The entire second series shows what happens to jounalist's that don't get enough evidence before releasing a story.

Point 4: Why do you have a problem with ships being able to be bought? No one is making you buy one and it only provides a bonus over other players if you consider that it gives them a head-start over others. The ships aren't more powerful, you can buy them with in-game money when the game is released (note I say 'when' not 'if'), hell you can even steal them if you want. All people are doing is funding a game that they are passionate about. Are they too expensive? Yea maybe but I've already spoken about the worth of a ship above so I won't repeat myself.

Taking me serious or not, you didn't address the point. You said you made mistakes and learned from them, but that doesn't mean those mistakes are gone or forgotten. Freelancer has not been the only time Chris Roberts has proven that he can promise a lot, but can't deliver. That is the main reason I stayed away from the kickstarter. I don't trust a studio that puts a proven windbag in charge. His idea are admittedly great, but ideas and money alone make no product. CIG would be better served by his brother Erin, who is also working there, but seems to have less sway. Erin Roberts is twice the manager, though not even half the visionary.

That directly ties into the money trouble. Yes, there is no 'hard' evidence only the claims of ex-employees, but it's not like this would be the first time Roberts mismanaged a product. That's why doubt has taken root. It simply wouldn't be the first time this happened.

Let's ignore that this is essentially pay-to-win before the game is even out. It's the worst of the two shady world's of DLC and pre-order bonus bundled into one. Paying to unlock content and only being able to do so before release, coupled with 'short time only' deals, which is a cheap marketing ploy aimed at the short term thinking people do. But until now it has only been done with actual products not with 'IOU'. I'm hoping that EA or Activision never see that this shit can fly and start to sell max-level and perks for their yearly shooter.
Also, I don't doubt that it'll be released. I just doubt it'll be released in anything like the condition Chris Roberts has promised.

Edit: I'm not the first person to argue with you and probably won't be the last, but we are both wasting our time. You are inherently optimistic of CIG's work and I'm inherently skeptical of their work. It's entirely irrelevant how good our points are, we'll never meet in the middle

If I remember right EA has already done it with Battlefield, you could pay to unlock all the perks and weapons right at the start, they got a lot of shit for it, basically everyone hated it, although I'm not certain if they are still doing it. It wasn't anything exclusive but for the first few weeks of the game it was easy to tell who unlocked everything. For Star citizen that exclusivity would likely last even longer as the bigger ships supposedly take hundreds of hours to unlock.

I'm assuming CIG has thought of this and are compensating otherwise you end up with backers having free reign to control the economy of the game for a long time as larger ships enable backers to amass a lot of wealth through mining or combat long before anyone with the entry level ship even gets started. the game doesn't seem heavily PvP based, so who knows how that will work out, it won't really matter for a long while anyway as the MMO style component is still like 2+ years away even by CIG's estimates.

 

[Qvar]

See, I do find that disturbing. Because if the money isn't being given to a specific goal, that means either one or some or all of the following is true:

And this is (among many other things) why backers don't give a flying shit about "worries" presented day after day around places like this. For it was US who voted for the ending of the stretchgoals. Not your fault, mind you, but it's really hard to take seriously people who have no idea about the game development and try to tell you how you should feel about it.

I have a certain friend who has been very critic of the game, saying that it certainly would be a flop and whatnot. Much like chronic complainers here. I invited him a few days ago to try it with the free 2-weeks citizencon code. He installed and we went in, free-flight mode. He complained of how boring it was, yadda yadda. I told him we could change the mode to battle royale if he felt ready. He said something like "oh... wait... you can FIGHT other people?". I told him yeah, ofc, it's been there for months. He said "oh ok. Well nvm I don't feel like it" and disconnected.

The fucker DIDNT EVEN KNEW AT WHICH POINT THE GAME IS, but he surely felt like he had the right to critizise the game all he liked.

 

[Mangod]

Actually, the money issue does have at least a minor basis for worry. They filed for an extension in the UK to avoid filing their finances. IANACPA, but generally that's done to avoid publishing a worrying financial report, or because the company in question is incompetent with their finances. If the former, they may have been banking on CitiCon to shore up their financials, if the latter, it's still cause for concern because they're not a brand new company at this point and there's no reason for the delay.

Do you have a source you can link to for that?

 

[BigM]

LOL I just read this from the early days. http://www.wired.com/2015/03/fans-dropped-77m-guys-buggy-half-built-game/

Seems nothing has really changed, still selling ships and the game is no where in site. Really have to laugh at this.

Roberts needs to bring people in from Origin to make him stop look listen and have others help him finish the game. After all that is what happened with WC and FL!