CNN overreacting and claiming Manga is child porn

[MeChaNiZ3D]

snip

No, not exactly. Most people can determine reality from fiction by the age of 2. What we are doing however is fostering an environment for this to be seen as more acceptable. People frequently get really hung up on their fetishes, and have a hard time " getting over them". Even having a crush on a person they will still be masturbating to them like 30 years later. The more people who are exposed to child pornography, the more people who can and will become addicted to it, and "need" it to get themselves off. A person cannot become addicted to child pornography for sex if they never see it in the first place. It doesn't turn you on if you are not exposed to it in the first place.

You should believe in normalization. Control of the masses via information control as been around for a very very long time and been proven very effective.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/

That's true, but it shouldn't be society's job to remove the possibility of a poor choice (although it does with illegal drugs, but not with cigarettes). I still maintain that there is enough of a disconnect between having a fetish that is fed with fiction and a criminal act that any sensible person will not find it difficult to observe the law, as they do not find it difficult with many other things.

Having reflected I agree to an extent. Promoting the acceptance of something is going to lead more people to identify with it. But child porn would still be, as it is, illegal in most forms and undesirable in the rest except for niche content, and acting on that urge would still be illegal, as it should be. Basically, people with a fetish for children exist, and however they manage it, as long as it doesn't involve any actual children or other people, that's fine. I'm not going to say what is and isn't allowed in someone's head.

With normalisation I'm talking about seeing things in media and the transition to thinking they're ok. Inelegant word choice on my part. Seeing things in society and thinking they're ok is different, humans have subjective morality.

 

[Candidus]

Do we need to create a poll? The vast majority of humans on earth would see the images in the OP as sexualized children. When such can be said, it is okay to generalize your statements. We have 5th grade girls that are taller than me, and their teachers, and most adult women. There has to be more to their characters than "limbs". Yes, some young girls tower over me, but their face, voice and manner are what gives them away to be a child. This is how we tell they are kids. By sexualizing characters with child like features, you are sexualizing children.

Having the agreement of the majority doesn't mean anything to me. Who among the majority has the right to point at a drawing and speak for everyone when they say what it is? Nobody.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

snip

No, not exactly. Most people can determine reality from fiction by the age of 2. What we are doing however is fostering an environment for this to be seen as more acceptable. People frequently get really hung up on their fetishes, and have a hard time " getting over them". Even having a crush on a person they will still be masturbating to them like 30 years later. The more people who are exposed to child pornography, the more people who can and will become addicted to it, and "need" it to get themselves off. A person cannot become addicted to child pornography for sex if they never see it in the first place. It doesn't turn you on if you are not exposed to it in the first place.

You should believe in normalization. Control of the masses via information control as been around for a very very long time and been proven very effective.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/

That's true, but it shouldn't be society's job to remove the possibility of a poor choice (although it does with illegal drugs, but not with cigarettes). I still maintain that there is enough of a disconnect between having a fetish that is fed with fiction and a criminal act that any sensible person will not find it difficult to observe the law, as they do not find it difficult with many other things.

Having reflected I agree to an extent. Promoting the acceptance of something is going to lead more people to identify with it. But child porn would still be, as it is, illegal in most forms and undesirable in the rest except for niche content, and acting on that urge would still be illegal, as it should be. Basically, people with a fetish for children exist, and however they manage it, as long as it doesn't involve any actual children or other people, that's fine. I'm not going to say what is and isn't allowed in someone's head.

With normalisation I'm talking about seeing things in media and the transition to thinking they're ok. Inelegant word choice on my part. Seeing things in society and thinking they're ok is different, humans have subjective morality.

I do think that whether or not it is societies job to remove the possibility of a poor choice would be the risk vs reward. What are we losing by removing this choice and what are we gaining? The impact of these choices on society should be weighed and only then should it be determined. Just as we deemed it illegal to sell poison apples because society deemed this a poor choice, we have deemed many things legal/illegal by the same measures.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Do we need to create a poll? The vast majority of humans on earth would see the images in the OP as sexualized children. When such can be said, it is okay to generalize your statements. We have 5th grade girls that are taller than me, and their teachers, and most adult women. There has to be more to their characters than "limbs". Yes, some young girls tower over me, but their face, voice and manner are what gives them away to be a child. This is how we tell they are kids. By sexualizing characters with child like features, you are sexualizing children.

Having the agreement of the majority doesn't mean anything to me. Who among the majority has the right to point at a drawing and speak for everyone when they say what it is? Nobody.

You are completely right! No one has the right to tell us what something is. If I want to call this a frog I should be entitled to do so!

Of course no one may agree with me, but I am still entitled to call it a frog if I see fit and no one should tell me otherwise.

 

[WindKnight]

Some of it is child porn. Stylised, illustrated child porn. I'm not saying that's what the manga in question is, but undoubtedly, some of it is.

IT'S FINE.

The reason I assume child porn is illegal is so that children aren't coerced into sexual acts. When it is a drawing, there are no real children involved, ie. no harm done. I cannot even begin to contemplate why people continue to think viewing manga of this kind, or any kind, should be punishable.

Its seen as potentially a grooming tool. The use of cute artstyles and characters, characters who are children, and if we get into doujinshi, potentially characters the kids watch and love in tv anime or weekly manga being portrayed in sexual situations could be used to normalise abuse to a child.

 

[Candidus]

Snip

Siiigh...

But how old is the duck?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

Siiigh...

But how old is the duck?

The frog has to be a child because grown frogs are not yellow.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Ha! I mentioned I'd probably see this pop up in a usergroup, guess I was right.

I get what their getting at, but I have to ask. How common is this kind of thing made. The site I read from has one rule, no children under 12, so I really do not know. In the end, this whole issue boils down to if fantasy can effect reality. Could someone who reads this hentai end up raping and murdering a young child in the real world? Though CNN did do some very ignorant reporting on the subject.

This video is most relevant and I am unspoilering it because it should not be overlooked.
I do believe however, that there are more issues involved than if watching this will cause someone to act upon it. As I stated earlier, most can tell the difference between reality and fiction by the age of 2, however, how this affects society as a whole by increasing acceptance of viewing sexualized children would be the greater issue to consider.

 

[Saltyk]

Look, if this kind of material makes people want to rape kids, then violent video games will turn people into murderers. sounds pretty logical to me. Fantasy does not equal reality. No matter how tasteless the work may be. Soon we might as well ban ANY kind of fantasy that we deem to be inappropriate. You should be able to watch whatever you want so long as your not breaking the law, or hurting no one. I

Child porn is illegal because it DOES hurt someone. The child. Children can not possibly give consent to sex or really understand what is going on. Even if the child does "consent" it's still rape and will have long term affects on them as they age.

And creating child porn was already illegal in Japan. They merely outlawed the possession of child porn, now. By outlawing the possession of child porn they can curb the demand for it and hopefully prevent some from being made and save some children from becoming victims of the production. At least, that's the theory most countries operate under.

The law does not outlaw the possession of manga or anime that could be considered child porn, though.

Basically, this whole thread is based on a lie or a misunderstanding. I actually read the CNN article on the passing of this law yesterday. While they did use the image of a manga cover in the article, the article clarified what was up with the law.

 

[Lilani]

CNN deliberately misunderstanding something to sensationalize it? Say it ain't so.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Ha! I mentioned I'd probably see this pop up in a usergroup, guess I was right.

I get what their getting at, but I have to ask. How common is this kind of thing made. The site I read from has one rule, no children under 12, so I really do not know. In the end, this whole issue boils down to if fantasy can effect reality. Could someone who reads this hentai end up raping and murdering a young child in the real world? Though CNN did do some very ignorant reporting on the subject.

Spoiler: Relevant video is relevant!

I didn't watch that video, but is that guy snuggling with images of Kotonoha from School Days? That's... I don't know what to make of that. What next? A Yuno hug pillow?

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Well, it's not like this sort of stuff was ever not vilified. It's tolerated because it's drawn, and drawn in a way to not represent reality at all, but this has always been creepy fetish territory.

The idea behind it might be reprehensible, but this is not an act of child pornography.

I honestly find that MORE offensive than Hustler because it isn't just sexualizing women, it is sexualizing girls with child like features. As a woman, I am not offended by the portrayal of women in Hustler and enjoy a good bit of porn myself, however I am offended by the portrayal of women in anime as " little dolls" and see that as more degrading. Making women into " feisty little dolls" (which I have actually been called by a man) places women in a light to not be taken seriously, and treats us as helpless as children. Even worse, it is sexualizing young girls, especially in anime with their child like features and high pitched voices, which should be considered off limits sexually and in extremely poor taste.

This is not just a girls thing though. Anything that's small and cute tends to have its own little subgenre in Japanese comics, whether it's girls, boys, or animals. Japan has kind of a thing for cuteness to a point where a certain percentage is sexually attracted to it.

I should have expected this type of thing to happen. The moe genre and it's effects have now been made known to the general public and people are reacting.

I assume, Casual Shinji, that you are similar to me in that you hate the moe boom for creating so many characters there only to be cute with no character development. I would have to say that this manga is a side effect since it's a cheap way to get people to look and buy. Looking at the image, it's two young girls with proportions of a 10 year old being covered in blood; I think the protective insitinct that is part of the reason moe is so popular would kick in.

There are other reasons to hate the moe boom; less emphasis on dramatic tension and more on banal high school life, the fact that it's an excuse to pander to otaku, the fact that moe is now becoming more sexual(if it wasn't already) and now the feeling of protection is complicated with a feeling of getting it on. I really could go on a rant but i won't

Relating to the child porn law, it is regrettable that Japan has only just now passed it. Japan has always had an issue with pedophlia and was known for a time as a major hub for such content. However, most sites i've read stated that the law is supposed to exempt digital or hand-drawn images, i.e, all doujins and loli/shota content. The argument that such content could cause people to act it out is a bit offputting since it's more a release valve if done properly, giving people an outlet without harming anyone. I will agree though that the amount of content with loli or shota is starting to strain my patiance; hell we have a seiyuu famous for lolis, this is how large the trend is.

Honestly the best thing to do is find out why People in Japan are more inclined toward younger girls and heal the social causes (my guesses are the same causes of the hikkikomori and NEET).

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Didn't watch link, but I read the news article about Japan banning porn on BBC (no opinions, no discussions, no "for the sake of balance" - just news) and when reading about how several manga producers and artists were trying to stop the ban on child pornography for reasons of "freedom of speech" I was curious as to how the world would react, particularly the British right wing, to whom both freedom of speech and anti-paedophilia are both major rallying points. They chose to ignore it. While I don't agree with CNN on nearly anything, it's good that it's being discussed. You have to question the motivation of anyone who opposes a ban on child pornography, and when there's a strong contingent of manga artists doing so, it's going to raise questions. I daresay it'll get explained away as "libertarianism" or whatever by the internet generation, but I personally think that the artists are in the wrong, and need to accept progression. Sexualising children is categorically wrong, because it's non-consensual above all else.

My guess for the opposiiton: loli and shota are very easy ways to create a moe charcter to pander to otaku. Otaku want a charcter who is weak, small and needs protecting and a child fits those conditions. Before, moe may have had no sexual element but now it's becoming stupid with the amount of oppai lolis out there and how many loli charcters are made to be sexual instead of any sort of cute.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I've got a degree in Japanese Language and Culture. I suppose I'm the proper person to give my two cents on this discussion, since on one hand I actually know all about Japanese culture and history and way of thinking, but on the other hand I was born and rised with Western culture. Which means I know Japan but I can see it from an external point of view.

My opinion? I really wish we would stop dictating what Japan must and mustn't do. Japan has a very rich culture, and more importantly, a very independent culture, born out of centuries of not dealing with Christian values and Western way of thinking.
It was us who made Japan stop wearing their traditional clothes (they used to wear kimono and such until less than 60 years ago). It was us who taught Japan that showing genitals is forbidden. And the reason they've officially made child porn illegal is because, you got it, of our influence.

Does this mean Japan is perverted, with their lack of ban for child porn and with their fascination with apparently underage characters?
No, they aren't. They just have a different culture. The fact they had and partially still have different laws about age of consent and sexual depictions of children is does not mean there's any more pedophiliacs there than what we have here.

It's a very complicated concept, and there's no way I could explain with one single post why we should respect Japan if they want to depict lolicon and such.
Suffice to say, their culture hasn't been influenced by Christianity, and this brought an entirely different view of sexuality.
We may call them odd, but who is to say WE aren't the odd ones, after centuries of sex-shaming?

If I remember correctly, the old minimum age of consent was 13 with 13 year olds only being able to have intercourse with 13-16 and 16 year and beyond only in their respective age range. In addition, that was a federal law but different prefectures are able to set higher consent ages with the average at that point being 18.

And yes, Japan was changed to be more prudish about sex due to western influence but I would argue that the concept of ie and the stronger familial ties allows people to live without getting a job or being in education (see hikkikomori and NEET). This support structure means that people don't actually have to interact with real people which could lead to a warped view of the world, including how women are seen. Also, how do you respond to the fact that while Japan has outlawed the production and distribution of child porn in the past, it was still known as haven for that type of material.

Yes, there is a lot of cultural stuff behind loli and shota that most don't know (amae is what pops in my mind as it's the sense of helping others and being helped) but at the same time, some lines have been crossed in the past and I don't think there are benefits for having a law like this not passed.

 

[zegram33]

I dunno...I guess it depends on WHY you think child porn is wrong?
As in, whether its wrong to have those urges that you cant control, or wrong to act on them. I'd say the latter, if a person is born or raised or what have you finding that attractive, I'd rather they just watched loli stuff rather than them going to a psychologist to be "fixed" because well, that's a hell of a slippery slope, its not too many leaps from there to trying to "fix" gay people and....well, If Loli's can live without hurting anyone (and id have to guess 99% of Loli's probably wouldn't watch "real" child porn)

But...well, its pretty much impossible for people to discuss a fetish they don't share properly, because we don't understand it.
I mean, I'm a straight male, I don't "get" homosexuality, but that obviously doesn't mean its wrong, just not for me.

bottom line, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I don't think its the biggest problem in the world (id rather they tackle the more "normal" sexism/over-sexualisation in manga first, but that's just because it annoys me when a perfectly good story is interrupted with a spontaneous boob break)

 

[Kotaro]

As any fan of Touhou will tell you, CNN has always stank of failure to research what they're talking about.
I'm not surprised by this. Disgusted, yes. But not surprised.

 

[Hochmeister]

Network news mistakes manga for porn? Oh 'Murica. I'm surprised it wasn't Fox.

Is the oversexualization of minors in mainstream anime and manga detrimental to Japanese society? No shit Sherlock. It's systemically objectifying and fetishizing women and girls, often to an outrageous extent. I'm surprised that the crowd that jumps on any instance of sexism in games doesn't scream bloody murder about this more often. Is it something the government should try and eradicate? No. Minors aren't actually involved in the process, and it's not the government's place to control what adults consume as entertainment. What does need to happen is for the anime and manga community to take a good long look at what they consume and how it influences them. Which will never happen, so we'll probably get more and more moe and fanservice creeping into everything.

 

[JoJo]

Some of it is child porn. Stylised, illustrated child porn. I'm not saying that's what the manga in question is, but undoubtedly, some of it is.

IT'S FINE.

The reason I assume child porn is illegal is so that children aren't coerced into sexual acts. When it is a drawing, there are no real children involved, ie. no harm done. I cannot even begin to contemplate why people continue to think viewing manga of this kind, or any kind, should be punishable.

Its seen as potentially a grooming tool. The use of cute artstyles and characters, characters who are children, and if we get into doujinshi, potentially characters the kids watch and love in tv anime or weekly manga being portrayed in sexual situations could be used to normalise abuse to a child.

To be fair though, if someone is already willing to break the law to groom a child for sexual purposes then breaking an additional law to get a hold of cartoon porn isn't going to stop them one bit. Grooming a child is already illegal in itself, so you might as well just enforce that law rather than waste overly-stretched resources going after all cartoon porn depicting supposed minors.

OT: Not surprised to be honest, the mainstream media is awful when it comes to using accurate terms related to this sort of thing. Even the usually reliable BBC for example doesn't seem to be able to tell the difference between paedophilia and hebephilia, or paedophilia and child sexual abuse for that matter. You'd think with Saville and the other recent scandals they'd be more clued up. In CNN's case, probably just your garden variety clickbait.

 

[Something Amyss]

This is not just a girls thing though. Anything that's small and cute tends to have its own little subgenre in Japanese comics, whether it's girls, boys, or animals. Japan has kind of a thing for cuteness to a point where a certain percentage is sexually attracted to it.

That's not just Japan, though. I'm betting if we could get accurate samples, they would be no different than any other culture in terms of this sort of thing. The bigger difference appears to be that they don't hide it.

How people get their kicks can be and often is harmless however, it can also be devastating to the person and affect their life in a very negative way. These " kicks" can destroy their relationships, lead to isolation, anxiety, and often leads to depression and suicide if not properly addressed. Often people do not seek help because they are embarrassed or they do not even realize they have a problem until it has effected their life in a negative way.

Are you in favour of "reparative therapy" for homosexuals, then? Your level of "concern" sounds exactly like that. HEll, homosexuality has been at times classified as a "paraphilia," a term with limited diagnostic and medical use.

Encouraging a paraphilic disorder only ensures that they cannot fulfill these sexual desires in reality and failing to resolve the issue would condemn them to an unfulfilled sex life, often resulting in other issues with anxiety and depression. CBT can be effective at assisting them to live a satisfying healthy sex life.

Who are you to define what is fulfilling or satisfying?

Also, I just have to say how weird I find it to have this conversation so soon after the Isla Vista shooting.

Not as unhealthy as no one gets hurt in the drawing process, which is why I think it's "ok" to draw these things.
Do people live better sexual lives when they get CBT though? Isn't it just a away to not offend?

CBT has its uses, but the evidence that it is effective in dealing with atypical sexual interests is weak at best. Recommendations appear to be based less on its viability and more on "we really don't want you to do that and we need something to stop you from doing that."

And that's bad science and bad medicine.

Thats something I don't understand in many of these responses. Why are people so concerned with what other people might get off to? Don't ask, don't tell I say.

What's the saying? Puritanism is the fear that someone, somewhere is having a good time?

I think that applies to some of the criticisms. In this thread and others like it, people have insisted also that there is a natural progression from naked drawings to kiddie porn to real kids (I don't think anyone spelled that out in this thread, but still). And if there were any evidence that that specific form of escalation occurred, I'd head the Manga witch hunt myself.

Fetishes often come down to the same sort of idea: that it will progress, that fantasy equals real world, the above "fulfillment" argument, the idea that it's a gateway (which, again, is very similar to the homosexuality argument that if we let gays have sex, next they'll want to marry kids, pets, and trees).

And it all seems kind of absurd. At least, given the current lack of evidence. And I don't think there will be any evidence. Any more than I think they will ever prove that violent games make you a killer.