CNN overreacting and claiming Manga is child porn

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Some of it is child porn. Stylised, illustrated child porn. I'm not saying that's what the manga in question is, but undoubtedly, some of it is.

IT'S FINE.

The reason I assume child porn is illegal is so that children aren't coerced into sexual acts. When it is a drawing, there are no real children involved, ie. no harm done. I cannot even begin to contemplate why people continue to think viewing manga of this kind, or any kind, should be punishable.

 

[Candidus]

or give sexualized characters child like features as is often popular in anime.

I've got a problem with this bit.

I remember arguing the toss with this guy who insisted that the Sorceress and Amazon from Dragon's Crown had childish faces. Preposterous from my point of view. The argument went on some length...

The bottom line is, there's a lot of homogenization (of faces and features) among the popular styles in anime. So you take your cues when judging age not just from the face, but from the body's proportions and development as well. If you grew up with anime, as I did, you do this as a matter of course and it surprises you when someone complains about it. If you'd rather rail and insist that anime as a whole change, then I don't know what to say.

Other than this:

- I certainly don't see what you say you see.

- I certainly don't agree that things are the way they are for the reason of surreptitiously catering to pedophiles (forgive me if I'm reading too much into what you're saying there).

- And even in the case of unambiguous loli, I'm in the camp that anecdotally regards loli as a safe dumping ground for lusts rather than the camp that anecdotally regards it as a gateway drug to the real thing. No, nobody has ever demonstrated a reliable causal link between drawings (of any kind) and ANY real-world behavior whatsoever; anecdotal arguments and wild, fear-fuelled postulations are all anyone's got.

Why? Whose business is it that I get off to Furbys? Or anything else for that matter?

Thats something I don't understand in many of these responses. Why are people so concerned with what other people might get off to? Don't ask, don't tell I say.

I wish I could like this post. And I say that as someone who despises Facebook and Twitter, and decries the whole culture of "likes" to begin with.

What people find sexually attractive should be their own business right up until the moment it impinges on the BODY of another person. Not their sensibilities, their bodies.

If you want to prohibit something on the grounds that it makes that moment of violation more likely, that's absolutely fine...

Oh, as long as you can prove it.

 

[Dandark]

Didn't watch link, but I read the news article about Japan banning porn on BBC (no opinions, no discussions, no "for the sake of balance" - just news) and when reading about how several manga producers and artists were trying to stop the ban on child pornography for reasons of "freedom of speech" I was curious as to how the world would react, particularly the British right wing, to whom both freedom of speech and anti-paedophilia are both major rallying points. They chose to ignore it. While I don't agree with CNN on nearly anything, it's good that it's being discussed. You have to question the motivation of anyone who opposes a ban on child pornography, and when there's a strong contingent of manga artists doing so, it's going to raise questions. I daresay it'll get explained away as "libertarianism" or whatever by the internet generation, but I personally think that the artists are in the wrong, and need to accept progression. Sexualising children is categorically wrong, because it's non-consensual above all else.

The thing is, why are they opposing the ban? The obvious conclusion I imagine most people will jump to is "They are paedophiles and want to sell to other paedophiles".

However they could be opposing it because it will make some of their current manga illegal. I don't know the wording of the ban but I could see them opposing it if it's badly worded. Im just going off memory now and could be wrong but im pretty sure Australia had a law that banned all porn of a woman with less than B-cup size because they thought it counted as child porn or something.

If they consider this ban to have something ridiculous like that then they could be opposing it on those grounds rather than just "we want to sexualize children".

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

Oh, as long as you can prove it.

Not even that. Freedom of expression is freedom of expression.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Some of it is child porn. Stylised, illustrated child porn. I'm not saying that's what the manga in question is, but undoubtedly, some of it is.

IT'S FINE.

The reason I assume child porn is illegal is so that children aren't coerced into sexual acts. When it is a drawing, there are no real children involved, ie. no harm done. I cannot even begin to contemplate why people continue to think viewing manga of this kind, or any kind, should be punishable.

I think there is more to it than that. Normalizing child pornography and have it being seen as something acceptable promotes and fosters the idea that this is somehow okay to do. It has implications on society as well, and I think that should not be so easily dismissed. Currently, we actually have people who act on these things currently that did not know they were wrong to do. Pornography is not wrong because it is sex between two consenting adults, this is not the case with sexualizing children.

 

[Candidus]

Oh, as long as you can prove it.

Not even that. Freedom of expression is freedom of expression.

Honestly I don't disagree with you. For example I concede that saturation of entertainment media with violence has probably caused at least ONE person in the whole history of entertainment media to become violent, who would not otherwise have become violent. Probably more than ONE.

I don't think that gives people the right to prohibit the saturation of entertainment media with violence though. And I think the same goes for any sexual depiction of any kind.

I might have to add the caveat: as long as it's private. Not necessarily private to an individual, but to a group of like minded individuals who have a reasonable expectation of privacy ie: on a private board or in their own houses.

Legally, I'm thinking of racist propaganda. It's not illegal to write it down and it's not illegal to share it with your racist friend. It's illegal to stand on a box in public and recite it loudly.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Pornography is not wrong because it is sex between two consenting adults

We both know not all people are of that persausion and consider it rape because the women (and men?) were coerced into by the money (because of their current social standing) and thus aren't really giving consent.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

snip

So if in anime, you take the clues about the person from their proportions, how would I have been portrayed as an Anime character being petite at the age of 10 wearing a "b" cup bra? Girls these days are growing boobies between the ages of 7-10, how is that being portrayed in anime? Where are the lines drawn to "children are off limits to sexualize"?

I do not think that watching/ viewing images means that you will act on feelings you may have from such images, however, it does foster a level of acceptability of such actions the more widespread it is. It is a matter of creating an environment where more are comfortable with such things allowing it to be seen as okay.

Lets take a nudist camp, for example. Outside a nudist camp people are often weirded out by seeing people just walk around naked. In a nudist camp, you see it is everywhere, so it is considered normal. Now if frequently when you went to visit different friends and they were all naked at their house, you would not see it as an abnormal activity. ( I personally think everyone should see more people naked so they don't get all hung up on the human body, but that is a topic for another thread).

The same can be done with just about anything. In Saudi Arabia, for example, it was not seen as abnormal to have young girls marry old men against their will because of the frequency at which it occurs. If we allow for the frequency of images of children to be used sexually, we make the idea that sexualized children are somehow acceptable. Openly condemning the sexualization of children however, and limiting its availability reduces the number of people who will view this as a normal sexual desire and activity.

 

[Verlander]

The thing is, why are they opposing the ban? The obvious conclusion I imagine most people will jump to is "They are paedophiles and want to sell to other paedophiles".

However they could be opposing it because it will make some of their current manga illegal. I don't know the wording of the ban but I could see them opposing it if it's badly worded. Im just going off memory now and could be wrong but im pretty sure Australia had a law that banned all porn of a woman with less than B-cup size because they thought it counted as child porn or something.

If they consider this ban to have something ridiculous like that then they could be opposing it on those grounds rather than just "we want to sexualize children".

Agreed, but this is the danger of the topic. If you support something that would benefit what society sees as the most egregious of crimes, you will always be considered to be in the wrong. The populist media will then jump on that, and exacerbate for profit. CNN are pretty much the pure embodiment of this cycle.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Some of it is child porn. Stylised, illustrated child porn. I'm not saying that's what the manga in question is, but undoubtedly, some of it is.

IT'S FINE.

The reason I assume child porn is illegal is so that children aren't coerced into sexual acts. When it is a drawing, there are no real children involved, ie. no harm done. I cannot even begin to contemplate why people continue to think viewing manga of this kind, or any kind, should be punishable.

I think there is more to it than that. Normalizing child pornography and have it being seen as something acceptable promotes and fosters the idea that this is somehow okay to do. It has implications on society as well, and I think that should not be so easily dismissed. Currently, we actually have people who act on these things currently that did not know they were wrong to do. Pornography is not wrong because it is sex between two consenting adults, this is not the case with sexualizing children.

So basically what we're doing here is arguing whether people know the difference between what happens in fiction and what is legal in real life. We have rape, murder, torture, mutilation, drug use and any number of other hideous crimes represented continuously in movies, some even being common parts of an interesting backstory. Movies are more realistic than manga. The only reason I'm even against child pornography is that you need child actors to do it and that in itself is illegal, I'd be fine with depicting it using consenting childlike adults. My stance is essentially I don't believe in normalisation. I know it hasn't happened to me with any of the multitude of reproachable things I see in media daily, and I think people should be allowed to have whatever fantasies they like, short of infringing on another person's rights.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Pornography is not wrong because it is sex between two consenting adults

We both know not all people are of that persausion and consider it rape because the women (and men?) were coerced into by the money (because of their current social standing) and thus aren't really giving consent.

Of course there is much more to be considered when discussing consent. Human trafficking, drugging, coercion, grooming, blackmail and many other issues plague the sex/porn industry. However, we also do have people who just enjoy sex, and much of amateur porn is just that. It is healthy and natural for people to enjoy sex, and enjoy watching sex. I do not consider it consensual unless both parties very much enjoy what they do.

 

[EternallyBored]

Pornography is not wrong because it is sex between two consenting adults

We both know not all people are of that persausion and consider it rape because the women (and men?) were coerced into by the money (because of their current social standing) and thus aren't really giving consent.

Interestingly enough, the porn industry in the U.S. used to be rife with shady practices and dubious consent between actors (at best), there have been documentaries on the things that went on in the American porn industry in the mid 20th century. Actresses were regularly threatened or subject to violence, both physical and sexual, and had very few rights within the production, often being shamed into doing things that were not mentioned being required when they were hired. The most famous documentary I can think of is the one about the making of the movie Deepthroat and the utter travesty that was the treatment of the actresses involved.

Today though, standards in the U.S. tend to be higher. As someone that lives in the only U.S. state with legalized prostitution (Nevada), I've had some exposure to the modern sex and porn industry (Vegas hosts a yearly convention centered solely around pornography and live-action porn production). When standards are followed, the actors and actresses are generally treated fairly well, but the porn industry still has its shadier side, with underground videos involving actresses who are sex slaves imported from south of the border forced to act in videos for sale on the internet.

Porn from foreign markets also has a chance of involving women who are basically sex slaves being coerced into sexual acts for monetary purposes. The porn industry is a lucrative business and has often been one of the common sources of income for organized crime, and all the nastiness that contains.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Some of it is child porn. Stylised, illustrated child porn. I'm not saying that's what the manga in question is, but undoubtedly, some of it is.

IT'S FINE.

The reason I assume child porn is illegal is so that children aren't coerced into sexual acts. When it is a drawing, there are no real children involved, ie. no harm done. I cannot even begin to contemplate why people continue to think viewing manga of this kind, or any kind, should be punishable.

I think there is more to it than that. Normalizing child pornography and have it being seen as something acceptable promotes and fosters the idea that this is somehow okay to do. It has implications on society as well, and I think that should not be so easily dismissed. Currently, we actually have people who act on these things currently that did not know they were wrong to do. Pornography is not wrong because it is sex between two consenting adults, this is not the case with sexualizing children.

So basically what we're doing here is arguing whether people know the difference between what happens in fiction and what is legal in real life. We have rape, murder, torture, mutilation, drug use and any number of other hideous crimes represented continuously in movies, some even being common parts of an interesting backstory. Movies are more realistic than manga. The only reason I'm even against child pornography is that you need child actors to do it and that in itself is illegal, I'd be fine with depicting it using consenting childlike adults. My stance is essentially I don't believe in normalisation. I know it hasn't happened to me with any of the multitude of reproachable things I see in media daily, and I think people should be allowed to have whatever fantasies they like, short of infringing on another person's rights.

No, not exactly. Most people can determine reality from fiction by the age of 2. What we are doing however is fostering an environment for this to be seen as more acceptable. People frequently get really hung up on their fetishes, and have a hard time " getting over them". Even having a crush on a person they will still be masturbating to them like 30 years later. The more people who are exposed to child pornography, the more people who can and will become addicted to it, and "need" it to get themselves off. A person cannot become addicted to child pornography for sex if they never see it in the first place. It doesn't turn you on if you are not exposed to it in the first place.

You should believe in normalization. Control of the masses via information control as been around for a very very long time and been proven very effective.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/

 

[Bug MuIdoon]

Pornography is not wrong because it is sex between two consenting adults

We both know not all people are of that persausion and consider it rape because the women (and men?) were coerced into by the money (because of their current social standing) and thus aren't really giving consent.

Just like working a 9-5 is actually slave labour?

This is probably one of the worst arguments against pornography I have ever heard.

 

[Alterego-X]

That makes this even worse. If people are actually becoming sexually attracted to cute little animals and kids cartoon or otherwise, they should work even harder to correct the problem and encourage a healthier sexual appetite instead. Reducing exposure to sexualized cuteness would be a start. It is unhealthy and could be damaging to their relationships and actual adult human social interactions. For example, if someone is more sexually attracted to a furby than an adult male/female they should consider seeking a Psychiatrist to assist them with their problem rather than buying more furbys.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/291419-treatment

Meh. If Japan won WW2, we would all be going through sexual regression therapy for NOT identifying cuteness as an attractiveness standard.

At this point we are talking about preferred cultural aesthetics and emotions, NOT about specific behaviors like sex with children or animals.

Yes, Japanese people idealize beauty through exaggerating high-pitched voices, neotenous features, etc. Doesn't seem inherently more harmful than the western focus on huge boobs, or redness of lips, in women.

 

[Candidus]

snip

Where are the lines drawn to "children are off limits to sexualize"?

Snip Snip...

If we allow for the frequency of images of children to be used sexually, we make the idea that sexualized children are somehow acceptable.

Can you just read the first line I isolated, and then the last sentence there one after the other. If you do that, you're bound to see what my point is going to be before I make it.

Let me adjust that last sentence.

"If we allow for drawings of what I believe to be representations of children to be used sexually, then I believe we make the idea that sexualized children are somehow acceptable."

If the head fits into the body more than once (not wholly, but at least roughly) and if the limbs are long, then: regardless of the size of sexual characteristics I am unlikely to view the character as a representation of a child unless the anime or manga in question makes it explicit by statement.

By no means do I think that everybody who draws their line at some point after mine is wrong or more likely to be a pedophile. And I don't feel the need to criticize those who draw the line before mine either; except when they point to their line and say "EVERYBODY come here now because my judgement of this illustrated character is right and yours is hideous, dangerous and wrong".

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

That makes this even worse. If people are actually becoming sexually attracted to cute little animals and kids cartoon or otherwise, they should work even harder to correct the problem and encourage a healthier sexual appetite instead. Reducing exposure to sexualized cuteness would be a start. It is unhealthy and could be damaging to their relationships and actual adult human social interactions. For example, if someone is more sexually attracted to a furby than an adult male/female they should consider seeking a Psychiatrist to assist them with their problem rather than buying more furbys.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/291419-treatment

Meh. If Japan won WW2, we would all be going through sexual regression therapy for NOT identifying cuteness as an attractiveness standard.

At this point we are talking about preferred cultural aesthetics and emotions, NOT about specific behaviors like sex with children or animals.

Yes, Japanese people idealize beauty through exaggerating high-pitched voices, neotenous features, etc. Doesn't seem inherently more harmful than the western focus on huge boobs, or redness of lips, in women.

LOL! If japan had won WW2, This might have been modern anime:
Their culture was changed by western intervention, bringing you the versions of Anime you have now. The traditional anime was nothing like what happened after westernization, and my Japanese friends personally prefer this anime instead:

Spoiler

It is a style of cartoon, but not what I would consider necessarily a good representative of Japanese culture. LOL

 

[Drizzitdude]

And here we go again... Let us just sit and watch as this burns up in their face.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

snip

Where are the lines drawn to "children are off limits to sexualize"?

Snip Snip...

If we allow for the frequency of images of children to be used sexually, we make the idea that sexualized children are somehow acceptable.

Can you just read the first line I isolated, and then the last sentence there one after the other. If you do that, you're bound to see what my point is going to be before I make it.

Let me adjust that last sentence.

"If we allow for drawings of what I believe to be representations of children to be used sexually, then I believe we make the idea that sexualized children are somehow acceptable."

If the head fits into the body more than once and if the limbs are long, then: regardless of the size of sexual characteristics I am unlikely to view the character as a representation of a child unless the anime or manga in question makes it explicit by statement.

By no means do I think that everybody who draws their line at some point after mine is wrong or more likely to be a pedophile. And I don't feel the need to criticize those who draw the line before mine either; except when they point to their line and say "EVERYBODY come here now because my judgement of this illustrated character is right and yours is hideous, dangerous and wrong".

Do we need to create a poll? The vast majority of humans on earth would see the images in the OP as sexualized children. When such can be said, it is okay to generalize your statements. We have 5th grade girls that are taller than me, and their teachers, and most adult women. There has to be more to their characters than "limbs". Yes, some young girls tower over me, but their face, voice and manner are what gives them away to be a child. This is how we tell they are kids. By sexualizing characters with child like features, you are sexualizing children.