Coincidence and God

[beniki]

Coincidence is the corner stone of real faith.

People see someone who happens to have a good lucky streak. Good things happen to him. No big deal, he's just lucky. But if he continues to be lucky, you'll start to doubt that luck. You might start thinking he's special, or if someone with more power is fixing things for him.

That doubt turns to faith in either the man or hidden power supporting him. You start to count on it. You'll say things like, 'It'll work, because he's doing it' or, 'If I copy him, maybe I'll have good things happen to me'.

You can try and pass it off as coincidence or simple probability. But there'll always be that little secret part of you doubting it, even if you can't admit it. It's hard wired into our brains. That little bit of paranoia that keeps us thinking and looking for clues, just as we used to keep an eye out for predators.

And of course, there's always the argument that probability and coincidence are merely tools of the higher power. Just like a DM rolling his D20.

Of course, I have no definite answer yet, but I've asked for help enough times in my life that it would be rude to deny a higher powers existence

 

[SimuLord]

The sum total of "this is way too much to simply be chance" is at the basic core of how I found (and keep) my faith in the gods.

Just because something is incredibly unlikely, doesn't mean that gods did it. If you look at the build up to any extremely unlikely event you will find perfectly mundane reasons for it.

Theist (of any religious stripe): "Wow, Franklin really had a great point."
Atheist: "It was all just science, you're just too blinded by God/the gods to see it."

Next predictable argument, please.

 

[dkyros]

The more I live the more I fear that I am becoming an atheist. Not because I need a diety or some higher being, but rather because I see the comfort in it. Now one thing that brings some strength to this mess of an argument is that science does a lot to explain what is happening around us accurately. However, accuracy does not entail understanding. I will bring two examples where this is evident. First, the Ptolemaic system which still can accurately predict the position of planets in the night sky using a geocentric model. This was a tour de force which gave a lot of strength to the idea that the earth was the center of the universe for the equations were always correct. This is a small ***** in the armor of science but as we know science is always evolving and this theory is no longer in use but it leads one to say how can I accept current theories without truly knowing the mechanisms that cause the events to happen.
Second, we can delve into the science of pharmacokinetics, or the study of how the body affects drugs. This uses crude estimates on how drugs are metabolized, distributed and excreted by the body. At present there are very complex equations requiring the use of computer programs to solve them and yet at a fundamental level the body is considered a "black box" in which we do not know what is happening exactly.
These arguments are not ironclad but they raise doubt. But unlike in religion where doubt in God almost destroys faith, doubt in science can be fixed bc science doesn't claim to know everything at the moment.

 

[Lexodus]

I think everything happens for a reason, even if it happens by coincidence.

Holocaust? Child molestation?

When taken simply the above statement of "everything happens for a reason" is fine enough. When thought about logically for, say, a minute it becomes a bit more sinister.

Firstly, unrelated Nazis, secondly the Holocaust did happen for a reason. That reason was that Hitler fucking hated the Jews and told people to gather them up and exterminate them.

 

[feather240]

This is blasphmey against the Dicelord!

"On a subatomic scale, all physical matter is controlled by a set of random quantum mechanics!..."

OT: With the complete omision of conincidence, I would have to say that there is more than likely a higher power.

So, cause and effect doesn't- >.<

 

[Dimensional Vortex]

So you're saying that things don't happen randomly, therefore there must be a higher power.

Why does that necessarily follow?

There's no reason to assume that any particular patterns that might be present in the universe were put there by some supernatural being, is there?

Why are there always these comments from people who don't read the post properly? He said "Don't you think that highers the possibilty of there being a greater power?" now let me bold the specific word here POSSIBILITY He never directly said that there must be a god because of his idea, he said it heightens the possibility of a God.

I think everything happens for a reason, even if it happens by coincidence.

Holocaust? Child molestation?

When taken simply the above statement of "everything happens for a reason" is fine enough. When thought about logically for, say, a minute it becomes a bit more sinister.

It does, yes, but there is both good and evil in the world.

Evil is subjective. Good, as well. Which is why there are various political parties as well as religious beliefs. Condoms are good to me. They prevent disease and unwanted pregnancy. Condoms are evil to Catholics. They waste a chance at life and promote sex for fun.

It's really subjective. However back to the topic. If you claim that a child is molested for some celestial 'reason' then I must inform you that I'm quite horrified at your theology.

I don't believe that god cares. I believe god created the world, then left it as it was. Humans molest children, not god. Humans are the evil ones, god doesn't have anything to do with it.

If you were christian, I guess you could blame The devil?

"Everything happens for a reason" is more existentialism to me, than theology.

I think everything happens for a reason, but you have to make your own reason.

What do you call a person who watches a sex act being performed upon a child?
Does 'god' see all?

There is obviously a horrific conclusion to be driven from asking these questions together.

Certainly the person doing harm is 'evil'. But what of the one who just watches it happen and does nothing? If you were shot and were lying bleeding on the street and I walked by, I would stop and help. If I stood there and watched I'd absolutely be evil. As such, the concept of an all-knowing all-seeing deity is quite evil in my eyes.

That person is a coward or uncaring. Selfish since he watches it being done, but doesn't do anything to help, probably to not get in trouble himself.

So god could be considered uncaring. If god see all, but does nothing.

I don't know if she does though. I don't know anything about god, I just believe in a god.

I'm quite a feminist so I tend to be shocked when anyone asserts that the Jewish/Christian/Muslim 'god' is a female.

To me it's silly to believe in something that you don't know anything about, or to assert information when you don't know. Like the statement of 'her' creating everything and then stepping back ala Deism.

I'm a theist. My mental image of god is female.

Which is fine as long as it isn't the god from the Bible or Quran. I have no clue why a woman would want to take claim to such a god. A god that is rampantly sexist, a god that punishes the 'original sin' of man with "work" and of women with "pain, misery, and bleeding monthly". A god that actively seeks out men to do all the important work and treats women, even the mother of a messiah, as nothing more than a vagina. It confuses me. But different strokes.

Go read the Qur'an before you start speaking out against it, if you have read it you will know that there are some verses in it that are sexist, and others that aren't. Also what your saying is a bit stupid, "why a woman would want to take claim to such a god." Because they believe in it, someone shouldn't have to drop their entire belief in religion, in the afterlife, in the universe because what they believe in is partly sexist. Also don't come up with the argument that says "Look at what happens in the middle east." A lot of people in the middle east have a largely messed up view in their religion.

 

[Cliff_m85]

So you're saying that things don't happen randomly, therefore there must be a higher power.

Why does that necessarily follow?

There's no reason to assume that any particular patterns that might be present in the universe were put there by some supernatural being, is there?

Why are there always these comments from people who don't read the post properly? He said "Don't you think that highers the possibilty of there being a greater power?" now let me bold the specific word here POSSIBILITY He never directly said that there must be a god because of his idea, he said it heightens the possibility of a God.

I think everything happens for a reason, even if it happens by coincidence.

Holocaust? Child molestation?

When taken simply the above statement of "everything happens for a reason" is fine enough. When thought about logically for, say, a minute it becomes a bit more sinister.

It does, yes, but there is both good and evil in the world.

Evil is subjective. Good, as well. Which is why there are various political parties as well as religious beliefs. Condoms are good to me. They prevent disease and unwanted pregnancy. Condoms are evil to Catholics. They waste a chance at life and promote sex for fun.

It's really subjective. However back to the topic. If you claim that a child is molested for some celestial 'reason' then I must inform you that I'm quite horrified at your theology.

I don't believe that god cares. I believe god created the world, then left it as it was. Humans molest children, not god. Humans are the evil ones, god doesn't have anything to do with it.

If you were christian, I guess you could blame The devil?

"Everything happens for a reason" is more existentialism to me, than theology.

I think everything happens for a reason, but you have to make your own reason.

What do you call a person who watches a sex act being performed upon a child?
Does 'god' see all?

There is obviously a horrific conclusion to be driven from asking these questions together.

Certainly the person doing harm is 'evil'. But what of the one who just watches it happen and does nothing? If you were shot and were lying bleeding on the street and I walked by, I would stop and help. If I stood there and watched I'd absolutely be evil. As such, the concept of an all-knowing all-seeing deity is quite evil in my eyes.

That person is a coward or uncaring. Selfish since he watches it being done, but doesn't do anything to help, probably to not get in trouble himself.

So god could be considered uncaring. If god see all, but does nothing.

I don't know if she does though. I don't know anything about god, I just believe in a god.

I'm quite a feminist so I tend to be shocked when anyone asserts that the Jewish/Christian/Muslim 'god' is a female.

To me it's silly to believe in something that you don't know anything about, or to assert information when you don't know. Like the statement of 'her' creating everything and then stepping back ala Deism.

I'm a theist. My mental image of god is female.

Which is fine as long as it isn't the god from the Bible or Quran. I have no clue why a woman would want to take claim to such a god. A god that is rampantly sexist, a god that punishes the 'original sin' of man with "work" and of women with "pain, misery, and bleeding monthly". A god that actively seeks out men to do all the important work and treats women, even the mother of a messiah, as nothing more than a vagina. It confuses me. But different strokes.

Go read the Qur'an before you start speaking out against it, if you have read it you will know that there are some verses in it that are sexist, and others that aren't. Also what your saying is a bit stupid, "why a woman would want to take claim to such a god." Because they believe in it, someone shouldn't have to drop their entire belief in religion, in the afterlife, in the universe because what they believe in is partly sexist. Also don't come up with the argument that says "Look at what happens in the middle east." A lot of people in the middle east have a largely messed up view in their religion.

I have. There are good portions in the Bible as well, but that doesn't negate the horrific. Same goes with the Quran.

Women believing that the Jewish/Christian/Muslim 'god' is female is as confusing to me as gay Catholics. *shrugs* Sorry, just my frame of thought on this.

Someone shouldn't drop their beliefs because their religious text of choice is immoral, sexist, homophobic, and hate-filled.....but it should spark skepticism.

But that's a different topic.

 

[TWRule]

"Everything happens for a reason" is more existentialism to me, than theology.

I think everything happens for a reason, but you have to make your own reason.

I'd like to point out that you are using a rather unorthodox definition of existentialism here. To an existentialist, nothing in the realm of human choice is pre-determined. Only the facticity of our existence (i.e. the natural laws like gravity that we are all subject to) is determined. In existentialism, our choices are completely baseless ultimately - one choice is just as good as the next, which means what we choose comes down to probability and free agency.

To say an apple falls when I drop it from height and the event of the holocaust are both things that happen for "a reason" is to use two different senses of the word reason. The holocaust was the result of a series of human choices, but no one chooses to be bound by natural law. The later is pure causation; an event occurs because something occurred prior. The former, conversely, cannot be determined into the future because of the element of free agency. People of free will are variables. If you don't believe in the existence of free will, then that's a whole different discussion - but certainly not one that has to do with existentialism.

Anyway, to respond to the OP: No, logically, even removing the idea of probability needn't presuppose a "higher power" (which I'm assuming you mean as a conscious deity). It would be fallacious to do so. It doesn't follow because even if natural law is deterministic, nature cannot necessarily determine human choices. You must account for the possibility of free will, where humans (not deities) affect the circumstances we find ourselves in, in addition to natural law.

 

[Sehnsucht Engel]

"Everything happens for a reason" is more existentialism to me, than theology.

I think everything happens for a reason, but you have to make your own reason.

I'd like to point out that you are using a rather unorthodox definition of existentialism here. To an existentialist, nothing in the realm of human choice is pre-determined. Only the facticity of our existence (i.e. the natural laws like gravity that we are all subject to) is determined. In existentialism, our choices are completely baseless ultimately - one choice is just as good as the next, which means what we choose comes down to probability and free agency.

To say an apple falls when I drop it from height and the event of the holocaust are both things that happen for "a reason" is to use two different senses of the word reason. The holocaust was the result of a series of human choices, but no one chooses to be bound by natural law. The later is pure causation; an event occurs because something occurred prior. The former, conversely, cannot be determined into the future because of the element of free agency. People of free will are variables. If you don't believe in the existence of free will, then that's a whole different discussion - but certainly not one that has to do with existentialism.

Anyway, to respond to the OP: No, logically, even removing the idea of probability needn't presuppose a "higher power" (which I'm assuming you mean as a conscious deity). It would be fallacious to do so. It doesn't follow because even if natural law is deterministic, nature cannot necessarily determine human choices. You must account for the possibility of free will, where humans (not deities) affect the circumstances we find ourselves in, in addition to natural law.

I do believe in the existence of free will and I didn't go into details, because I had better things to do at that moment. I used the word existensialism, because I felt it was better than theology.

 

[Fear Gingers]

Man there is so much you could talk about in this topic, i mean first of all free will do you actually have free will or is it an illusion eitherway both cant be disproved. then theres the Chaos theory vs intelligent design, is the universe existing through a series of random events or did a higher power create this.
Personally I believe a higher power or God could exist whether it does I dont know or even if it exists in our plane of existance. Secondly with as little as we know of the universe and considering how immensly large the universe actually is there very well could be a being of omnipotent level, however it could be that their level of technology is so far advanced over ours that is seems like magic.

Then again 'God' or the theory of God was created by man in a time when we wern't self aware of our place in the universe, and was probably most likely created to explain things we didnt know, similar to 'luck'. and logically it could be said that the first and oldest religion is the right one and the rest are either constructed or altered versions of the original. if thats true then i think we should be bhuddist, although im not sure if thats the oldest religion

 

[Urgh76]

I think everything happens for a reason, even if it happens by coincidence.

Holocaust? Child molestation?

When taken simply the above statement of "everything happens for a reason" is fine enough. When thought about logically for, say, a minute it becomes a bit more sinister.

It does, yes, but there is both good and evil in the world.

Evil is subjective. Good, as well. Which is why there are various political parties as well as religious beliefs. Condoms are good to me. They prevent disease and unwanted pregnancy. Condoms are evil to Catholics. They waste a chance at life and promote sex for fun.

It's really subjective. However back to the topic. If you claim that a child is molested for some celestial 'reason' then I must inform you that I'm quite horrified at your theology.

I don't believe that god cares. I believe god created the world, then left it as it was. Humans molest children, not god. Humans are the evil ones, god doesn't have anything to do with it.

If you were christian, I guess you could blame The devil?

"Everything happens for a reason" is more existentialism to me, than theology.

I think everything happens for a reason, but you have to make your own reason.

What do you call a person who watches a sex act being performed upon a child?
Does 'god' see all?

There is obviously a horrific conclusion to be driven from asking these questions together.

Certainly the person doing harm is 'evil'. But what of the one who just watches it happen and does nothing? If you were shot and were lying bleeding on the street and I walked by, I would stop and help. If I stood there and watched I'd absolutely be evil. As such, the concept of an all-knowing all-seeing deity is quite evil in my eyes.

That person is a coward or uncaring. Selfish since he watches it being done, but doesn't do anything to help, probably to not get in trouble himself.

So god could be considered uncaring. If god see all, but does nothing.

I don't know if she does though. I don't know anything about god, I just believe in a god.

I'm quite a feminist so I tend to be shocked when anyone asserts that the Jewish/Christian/Muslim 'god' is a female.

To me it's silly to believe in something that you don't know anything about, or to assert information when you don't know. Like the statement of 'her' creating everything and then stepping back ala Deism.

I'm a theist. My mental image of god is female.

I guess this would be my mental image of god

Spoiler: Cookie for reference

OT: Big gap in your argument: Fate

 

[SimuLord]

The sum total of "this is way too much to simply be chance" is at the basic core of how I found (and keep) my faith in the gods.

Just because something is incredibly unlikely, doesn't mean that gods did it. If you look at the build up to any extremely unlikely event you will find perfectly mundane reasons for it.

Theist (of any religious stripe): "Wow, Franklin really had a great point."
Atheist: "It was all just science, you're just too blinded by God/the gods to see it."

Next predictable argument, please.

My argument is only predictable because its obvious...

Look, you can say its Gods or what not, but you have no real reason to believe that other than optimism.

Atheists, I'd like you to take careful note of this attitude, because it's why religious people (of any religious stripe) can't stand you.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

The sum total of "this is way too much to simply be chance" is at the basic core of how I found (and keep) my faith in the gods.

Just because something is incredibly unlikely, doesn't mean that gods did it. If you look at the build up to any extremely unlikely event you will find perfectly mundane reasons for it.

Theist (of any religious stripe): "Wow, Franklin really had a great point."
Atheist: "It was all just science, you're just too blinded by God/the gods to see it."

Next predictable argument, please.

My argument is only predictable because its obvious...

Look, you can say its Gods or what not, but you have no real reason to believe that other than optimism.

Atheists, I'd like you to take careful note of this attitude, because it's why religious people (of any religious stripe) can't stand you.

It's a broadly generalizing statement, but even generalizations have mark in a some population to start off with. It's the same flip-side, if a theist claims an atheist only chooses his/her position to "rebel" against the "status quo".

OT: I'm an Agnostic Atheist myself, but I'm still working through all my philosophical references to try and find whatever I actually take to heart at the moment. It's a confusing process, to say the least.

 

[SimuLord]

The sum total of "this is way too much to simply be chance" is at the basic core of how I found (and keep) my faith in the gods.

Just because something is incredibly unlikely, doesn't mean that gods did it. If you look at the build up to any extremely unlikely event you will find perfectly mundane reasons for it.

Theist (of any religious stripe): "Wow, Franklin really had a great point."
Atheist: "It was all just science, you're just too blinded by God/the gods to see it."

Next predictable argument, please.

My argument is only predictable because its obvious...

Look, you can say its Gods or what not, but you have no real reason to believe that other than optimism.

Atheists, I'd like you to take careful note of this attitude, because it's why religious people (of any religious stripe) can't stand you.

And what attitude is that exactly?

The flippant dismissal of deep spirituality and faith as "having no real reason to believe". It's condescending, arrogant, and (to the religious mind) a confession of ignorance and lack of a soul.

We might as well be different species, theists and atheists. Our thought process is completely at odds and we don't speak the same language.