Convince Me That I'm Wrong About RPGs

[Loki Cain]

I'm going to start by talking about pokemon games, in every pokemon game i have ever played i got though the entire game by just useing two or three pokemon, and in some cases even just one. In most other RPGs iv'e played I just focus on the skills i use the most, I level other things as well just not as much. take Fallout 3 for example I would focus on things like small guns and lockpick and speech mostly because in the beginning of the game you have mostly small guns at your disposal for weapons, there really arn't many computers and well with a high speech you can talk your way around almost anything, later in the game ill start leveling computers and energy weapons because computers become more important and i just like lasers. I never have that much trouble with RPGs in fact they are my favorite type of game. anyway the point of all this is im just saying do what you want and you'll figure it out as you go along, much like life... oh and if your really haveing problems just play computer games and use hacks... much unlike life.

My name is Loki Cain and i approve this message.

 

[Kakashi on crack]

Ahem... A really fun RPG that requires no "right" build? Find a good DM and your answer is tabletop DnD. It requires a group effort where, for instance, the bard is good at charming the waitress so the rogue can sneak behind them and grab they key, then the fighter defeats the gaurds for them and a ranger racks where the enemy is. You work as a group, and with the right DM and peopel it can be an extremely fun RP experience where you'll hardly notice you are ever crunching numbers.

 

[Mr Binary]

In a single player RPG I don't think there is an "wrong way" to create or build your character, there may be builds to make things easier but that is always there.

With MMOs I always seem to get the same things you get. "You're using that skill?! Don't use that! Use this!" I tend to ignore that due to my fear of conforming and becoming a template but I still believe that everyone should play how they wish. Yeah, there may be a "Best build" to make your character preform better but how is it really a Role Playing Game if you are the exact same as everyone else?

 

[captaincabbage]

Honestly, you sound like a bit of a pushover for being forced to restart a singleplayer RPG by friends.
Tell your friends to fuck off when they tell you to start again, you play those games the way you want.

Besides, maybe RPGs are just not up your alley. Everyone has their weakpoints. For example, a friend of mine is a fanatic racing gamer and he loves flight and combat sims, however, if you get him in the same room with a third-person shooter then it's almost like he's purposely running into fire, he's that bad.
Out of interest, what RPGs have you played that are deemed "Easy" by everyone else that you find hard?

 

[Veldaroth]

I've found online games that seem to be this way, but not so much RPGs in general. Then again, I play RPGs for the story and perhaps some fun/challenging battles, so I don't really care much about my build. I tend to dump all my stats into persuasion anyway, so whatever. MMOs are the only games I pay close attention to builds with.

Maybe you shouldn't play online games? Or don't talk about your build to your friends?

 

[metal mustache]

well stat building is completly pointless and just another example of the inheirant evil of mmorpg's. I think its different for a single player game, allthough i think there is some flaws in some of them too. I'm going to talk about oblivion specificly. There are a few useless talents in the game like speech craft, which is pointless since you can just take the illusion talent and get charm spells among many other spells; and i don't much see the point in taking security, aren't you just going save before trying to open the very hard lock anyway? i soon became good at the lockpick minigame anyway, and my security skill didn't seem to have any relevance to how easy or hard the lockpicking was, and at the end of the day lock picking didn't do much damage to the daedra.

But then maybe youre just thinking about the wrong way, and those shitty talents are actually supposed to be bad as a sort of way to raise the the difficulty, or make you play the game differently, ie sneak around enemies and run away from them, or jump on top of a rock for safety from the bears. But then it is annoying if you didn't realize that your talents would leave you fucked for combat.

 

[Nyaliva]

-snip-

To be completely honest with you, after reading the OP, I have no idea what you're talking about.
However, this is probably because I haven't played many if any RPG's since Golden Sun on GBA and I don't play any MMOs except RuneScape (only on occasion when I'm so bored I need to contrast it with something more boring to shock me back into a motivational mood). After reading other comments I think I understand what you're asking...

I do find some fun in levelling up my character as much as I can and after a while I feel that that is my ultimate goal but only really in MMOs. However, I don't think there's any way to ruin a character, I just level up something and if I find things are hard I try and pinpoint the problem and level up what would help it. In single player RPGs it's often easier because there's a set path to take and if you can't get further down the path then you level up until you can.

If you want some good RPGs I'd only really be able to suggest Baldur's Gate or (if you don't mind JRPGs) the aforementioned Golden Sun because I can't pinpoint many of the games I've played since them that were RPGs!

Oh and about Pokemon, I remember playing as a kid and getting through everything easy as but when I went back and played it again a couple of years ago, I had to level up my pokemon until it was grindtastic in order to get anywhere. Maybe kids are just immune to RPG grinding. And to deal with your problem, I'd say you need to level up like one pokemon of each type and then just use which types would be effective against each gym leader. Oh god...I'm reverting to my 8 year old self!!!!!

 

[Cypher10110]

...
This got me thinking about other RPGs I've played. In every single one of them, somebody's complained that I was doing things completely wrong.
...
I then began to ask myself questions: Why is it that, if I don't do everything PERFECT, I've screwed up? How can so many people (every RPG fan I've ever met) care so much about what a computer or walkthrough says?
...
And most importantly: How many RPGs have REAL customization? Do RPGs really have billions of customization options? Or do they have three or four "options", and a billion fuckups?

This has turned me off from the entire RPG genre. And, in case you haven't noticed, a LOT of games these days have Stats and Skills and all that jazz. I don't want to go the rest of my life unable to enjoy these games. So please, Escapist. Convince me that I'm horribly, horribly wrong.
...

I feel your pain, bro.

In MMORPGs the idea of one "right" way to play is ridiculously common. In games like League of Legends (LoL), Heroes of Newerth (HoN), and Defense of the Ancients (DotA), the same sort of thing happens. If you really want to maximize a certain "potential" of a character/class/etc you use a combination of in-game knowledge mixed with out-of-game "theory-crafting".

There are people who make mathematical models and work out (based on these models and play-testing etc) what is the "best" way to play. They post their findings on the forums, and people flock to this information and absorb it. Some people take it at face value "oh good a guy is telling me how I can play the game so I don't have to figure it out myself", some use the information to adjust what they're doing, maybe continuing to experiment, and others don't pay any attention.

The real shame is that the vast majority of players who read guides just want "quick and easy" results to make them better at the game. There's (usually) more to it than that.

If you want to maximize a certain aspect of a character then you have 2 real choices.
1. get stats that maximize a certain aspect your character (damage, survivability, speed, etc)
2. adjust your play style to maximize a certain aspect of your character (tactics, teammates, positioning, awareness, reaction-times, etc)

When playing with others, they'll see how you are currently playing, perhaps have an idea of how you could potentially play, and may even have knowledge of a "best" way to play (which at the end of the day is someone's opinion, grounded in a mixture of facts and assumptions).

Every character/class in every game has their own unique set of abilities, "roles" and "potential" within the game. Sometimes a strange build can have unseen advantages in certain circumstances.

----*Random sidetrack anecdote*----
I personally like to play with the potential of characters in League of Legends (LoL) - "What happens if I trade a little damage for survivability? Can I get alot of survivability with a minimum sacrifice in damage?", some people might look at my items and say "why do you have so much health? you're supposed to be an assassin!", to them I say "my character is unique in that I Regen my health and energy quickly, and a large health pool allows me to stay in a fight longer, and move from one fight to the other with less risk". It's not the conventional "best" way, but with my play-style, and my friends to back me up, it works better than the conventional "best" way, so I stick with it. I'm more useful to my team, it helps us control the game, and in the end, win.
-------------------------------

In an MMO you're typically looking to maximize your damage/healing output in a certain time-frame. You can maths that shit up, and people do, to figure out "the best possible way". There are so many different variations that will get you perhaps 60% or 80% of the way there, while using the rest of the "potential" in other areas.

As far as simulators and spreadsheets go, they will mathematically tell you, based on whatever parameters programmed in, what is the "best" in it's logic-based opinion. But just because it's all maths and maths "cant be wrong" doesn't mean it's the best for you. All maths is based on at least SOME conceptual assumptions. For example if you're spending most of the time moving, you don't have time to use long-casting abilities. So a build based completely on instant-cast abilities might actually be better in that circumstance.

If people whine that you're not playing properly, and your holding them back, listen to their suggestions, but ultimately you must decide for yourself what you need to do. Maybe there's something you can do as a team different; always look for ways things can be better. Don't just follow a guide, use the guide as a... well as a GUIDE, TO GUIDE YOU. Not as a fucking bible to live by.

TLDR; My personal take on the whole matter is; "What is your goal? Are you achieving it? How can you better achieve it?"

If your goal is simply to do damage then get +damage, if your goal is simply to last longer, then get +last longer. Usually theres a mixture of factors, and choosing which to prioritize is up to you.

I have never tried to be "the best" at anything. I want to be "good" at a few things. Play to your strengths, mitigate your weaknesses.

Thankfully in my move away from the MMORPG scene into the "PVP Battle Arena" scene, there is much more room for experimentation. Even if you're "doing it wrong" and win, it's still a win; so maybe it wasn't as "wrong" as everyone thought. As long as you achieve the goal you set out for (maybe it's "win the match", or maybe it's just "have fun"), then it doesn't matter weather or not some programmed script agrees with you or not.

Don't lose faith in RPGs, man. Always try to be better, but don't forget to experiment. Finding a way to play the game BETTER than anyone you know is always satisfying.

 

[Torrasque]

I kinda get what you are saying, but don't understand why you put so much merit into what other people say.

Take WoW for instance.
In Wrath of the Lich King, there was alot of customization in every spec of every class, but there was a certain talent set that you had to get in order to do "competitive" healing/dps/tanking/pvp. These talents are the talents that most people agree, are the most beneficial for your role. So for instance, you would get increased mana regeneration capabilities instead of increased defensive abilities, if you were a healer in a raid. Or you would get defensive abilities and threat-keeping talents if you were tanking.
In these talent sets, there was usually flexibility for about 3-8 points that you could put into anything you wanted, while still keeping the competitive talent set.
(all of this was generalized for non-WoW players, but this next part gets kind of detailed)
I had a Death Knight in wotlk that I played for shits and giggles, and I enjoyed tanking with him. Near the end of wotlk, the spec to be for tanking, was blood. It had the best survivability, best threat generation, and was just really good at tanking. But I spec'd frost. Why? Because I liked the spec, liked the aoe threat, liked the survivability, and it required skill to pull off. I tanked a hell of alot better than blood tanks that had MUCH better gear than me.

Moral of the story: If you do not know what you are doing, you should usually listen to what other people say, because they might know more than you, and make you better.
If you do know what you are doing, disregard what everyone else is saying, forge your own way, and laugh at everyone else when you do what they are doing, better.

TL;DR version, this v

If you're playing a single player RPG, I don't believe there is any "wrong way" to build your character. There's certainly a build that "makes things the easiest" but there's always going to be that build.

When it comes to MMO's such as WoW there is indeed a "best build" that runs standard as to making your character perform at its optimum. That's because it's all a numbers game. Punch in enough numbers into the formulas and eventually you'll come up with the best and fastest route from point A to point B.

Mathematically speaking there's always going to be a "best build", especially in online games where you've got nerds crunching numbers day an night to out frag their competition.(trust me I've been that nerd) When it comes to a single player game like Deus Ex, tell them to piss off if they don't like how you're playing the game.

Also - kind of off topic - WoW has been completely streamlined so every class has a streamlined spec where if you don't have the talents everyone else has, you're legitimately doing it wrong. And for that reason, I stopped playing -_-

 

[Torrasque]

Oh and about Pokemon, I remember playing as a kid and getting through everything easy as but when I went back and played it again a couple of years ago, I had to level up my pokemon until it was grindtastic in order to get anywhere. Maybe kids are just immune to RPG grinding. And to deal with your problem, I'd say you need to level up like one pokemon of each type and then just use which types would be effective against each gym leader. Oh god...I'm reverting to my 8 year old self!!!!!

lol dude, my 12 year old self could beat the fucking shit out of me now, because my 12 year old self was the pokemon master.
I'd like to say I know more now, than I did then, but damn... I leveled 8 pokemon to lvl 100 in Silver (no rare candies) by fighting the Elite 4 endlessly, and enjoyed it.
Now, I groan when I have to lvl my lvl 37s to 40 in order to beat Claire =/

 

[Realitycrash]

Why bother? If you don't like RPGs, nothing we say is going to convince you. Seeing others play one might, tho.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Are you talking about all RPG's, or just MMO's? Because I'm pretty sure RPG's like Mass Effect don't have this problem.

 

[Lexodus]

If you're getting through the game just fine, then you don't need to find the perfect build, and you haven't ruined your character. I also highly doubt that every single person you've met who enjoys RPGs is absolutely set on creating the best possible character.

While such things are prevalent in MMOs, I'm having a hard time believing what you say about all single player RPGs being the same. You're going to need to give some good, specific examples.

Example: I was a good way through Deus Ex. My friend was over, and saw me playing. He instantly asked about my stats. Apparently, I was relying too much on hacking and non-heavy weapon combat (I was trying to play with stealth). He went on about how I'd be twice as far in the game if I had payed next to no attention to anything besides guns. He yelled at me for at least ten minutes before I got fed up and just quit the game. I never finished it, because I didn't want to start all over and he said "I told you so" after dying more than twice on any part.

Your friend just sounds like a dick. I've never met anyone like that; then again, I don't know how much you identify yourself as a nerd, meaning you may hang out with more elitists than me.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

And most importantly: How many RPGs have REAL customization? Do RPGs really have billions of customization options? Or do they have three or four "options", and a billion fuckups?

Really only one, Deus Ex.

 

[Booze Zombie]

You don't need to number crunch to be good, just read what all of the stats do, figure out what's going to make your character stronger in the long run and go with that.

That way the early game is a challenge and when you're higher level you feel like you've improved.

E.g: I'm playing a mage in Dragon Age and I want to kill things, so I keep upping my magic stat and occasionally willpower so I have enough energy to cast spells with, then I just look at the skill trees, figure out which of the skills are the most useful and aim to obtain them.

It doesn't seem very complicated to me.

 

[Engarde]

I would recommend you simply try to ignore those who order you and try things your own way to enjoy your singleplayer experience.

I can be a bit commanding like that sometimes, though what gets me is people who simply don't get the basic mechanics, like which stat does what and things. They make me maaaaad. So as long as you are happy that you want that skill / stat / whatever, go for it. Just make sure you know what it does. >_>

 

[GlorySeeker]

Play the game the way you want it. RPGs are about roleplaying. Builds, are based on preference, if you ask me. In WoW, Ive been bitched at for my Tank build(Warrior) And know what I tell em," I tank just fine, if you dont like it, Reque. Fuck you damn DPS."