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Nickolai77

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I apologise if this question has already been asked and answered, but: Do you think that CD's are over-priced?

Typically, in the UK, a CD costs between £12-20, but i can download an album from i-tunes for £7.99, which i think that is a much more reasonable price for a CD. I don't like having to spend more than £10 on a CD. Ideally,i think a CD would be priced between £7-12 pounds, depending on it's length.

(For reference, £7.99 is equivalent to $13.95 Australian dollars, £10=$17.47, and £20=$34.94.
 

BonsaiK

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Nov 14, 2007
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Nickolai77 said:
I apologise if this question has already been asked and answered, but: Do you think that CD's are over-priced?

Typically, in the UK, a CD costs between £12-20, but i can download an album from i-tunes for £7.99, which i think that is a much more reasonable price for a CD. I don't like having to spend more than £10 on a CD. Ideally,i think a CD would be priced between £7-12 pounds, depending on it's length.

(For reference, £7.99 is equivalent to $13.95 Australian dollars, £10=$17.47, and £20=$34.94.
From a consumer perspective, wouldn't it be great if all music was $1. Or even free? Hey, it'd be just fantastic if there was a website that could just give you music for nothing...

From the artist's perspective, they just spent $xx,xxx recording that thing, money for which they had to be advanced by the record company (which is a loan) and they don't see any money back from CD sales until the initial expenses are recouped, so they definitely want you to be paying something. Or even if they funded it themselves that still cost some cash. Not all artists dream of having a big-ass mansion on the hill and a Rolls Royce from CD sales, but they would at the very least like to be able to recoup what they spent making the thing, and if they could earn something approaching a livable wage, that would be fan-fucking-tastic.

From the perspective of the record company, they want the damn things to be worth as much as people will reasonably pay for them, so they can make money to pay for all their staff and for funding the next big enterprise or whatever, or at the very least, stay in business.

CDs have actually come down in price somewhat over the years simply because it's gradually sunk into people that:

* What we had before (vinyl) was better audio quality
* Cheap plastic and paper on a CD is kinda meh compared to big artwork and sexy vinyl
* You're one URL away from getting this music for free

The way I look at it is this: if I pay $30 for a CD (which is the maximum going rate for a single CD that isn't an import in Australia, although usually the price is closer to $20-25), that's because I think that artist's music is worth $30 of my money. If I say "I want to pay $14 for my CD", what I'm really saying is "that artist didn't record an album worth $30, their album is only worth $14 in my opinion". So in other words, my answer to your question is that I think CDs should be priced what they're worth... and they usually are, or they don't sell very well, which is fine too. I'm not sure if I'm answering your question or not, but then I actually find it a bit of an esoteric question anyway, because to me La Roux isn't worth the same as The Spice Girls, know what I mean?
 

Ham_authority95

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BonsaiK said:
It's good to think realistically about this. Some of the most well-known artists still have day jobs, I would list some but I'm sworn to secrecy - however you'd be amazed.

Government jobs are excellent. Usually no weekend work, decent money, and organising leave to go touring isn't too hard. If you've got the skills for it and you can handle leaving your soul at the door it could work out really well. Many semi-pro artists take refuge in this kind of work when not on the road.

Anything else that isn't going to conflict with gigging hours is fine. Or if it does, an understanding employer that doesn't mind giving you unpaid leave at the drop of a hat helps. Various well-known artists do factory work and other fairly brain-off stuff and save their brain for their music. What you want to especially avoid is jobs that tie you up at night every weekend, where the bosses don't give a shit about you, have no idea about musical culture apart from what they see on TV and thus probably won't understand the needs of a musician, like service station attendant, fast food, 24/7 convenience store, a lot of hospitality industry stuff, I'd avoid those jobs. Fine to get you started but once you start gigging those jobs become a liability. The exception is hospitality industry within the music business itself, in which case your employers are more likely to understand.
Ok sweet. I'm pretty much doing some brain-off work at my dads shop right now, so I can continue with that even until after I leave highschool.

The only problem I see with it is that I'm tired as shit when get home, which can be corrected with a nap if I have the time.
 

BonsaiK

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Ham_authority95 said:
BonsaiK said:
It's good to think realistically about this. Some of the most well-known artists still have day jobs, I would list some but I'm sworn to secrecy - however you'd be amazed.

Government jobs are excellent. Usually no weekend work, decent money, and organising leave to go touring isn't too hard. If you've got the skills for it and you can handle leaving your soul at the door it could work out really well. Many semi-pro artists take refuge in this kind of work when not on the road.

Anything else that isn't going to conflict with gigging hours is fine. Or if it does, an understanding employer that doesn't mind giving you unpaid leave at the drop of a hat helps. Various well-known artists do factory work and other fairly brain-off stuff and save their brain for their music. What you want to especially avoid is jobs that tie you up at night every weekend, where the bosses don't give a shit about you, have no idea about musical culture apart from what they see on TV and thus probably won't understand the needs of a musician, like service station attendant, fast food, 24/7 convenience store, a lot of hospitality industry stuff, I'd avoid those jobs. Fine to get you started but once you start gigging those jobs become a liability. The exception is hospitality industry within the music business itself, in which case your employers are more likely to understand.
Ok sweet. I'm pretty much doing some brain-off work at my dads shop right now, so I can continue with that even until after I leave highschool.

The only problem I see with it is that I'm tired as shit when get home, which can be corrected with a nap if I have the time.
Well if there's one person who's probably going to be understanding, it's your dad. Hopefully.
 

Ham_authority95

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BonsaiK said:
Well if there's one person who's probably going to be understanding, it's your dad. Hopefully.
He's are well-aware of how serious I am about being a musician(and how broke I'll be), so as long as my work ethic doesn't decline, he'll let me keep my job.
 

thedeathscythe

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Thanks for the reply! I have another question that struck me randomly.

I remember reading that Rolling Stone magazine said that Gimme Shelter, by the Rolling Stones, was an example of a perfect song, and when I thought about it, I couldn't agree more. I have a couple songs that I consider perfect. Are there any that you would say are perfect off the top of your head?
 

BonsaiK

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thedeathscythe said:
Thanks for the reply! I have another question that struck me randomly.

I remember reading that Rolling Stone magazine said that Gimme Shelter, by the Rolling Stones, was an example of a perfect song, and when I thought about it, I couldn't agree more. I have a couple songs that I consider perfect. Are there any that you would say are perfect off the top of your head?
"Gimme Shelter"? Seriously? Well I suppose that's an unsurprising opinion given the source.

I suppose the question here is - how are they defining "perfection"? Does that just mean that they like it a lot? Music journalism isn't really very far removed from gossip columns, and their recommendations should really be taken as "what's hip to leave on your coffee table right now", rather than an actual musical recommendation. Most popular reviews of pop and rock albums completely sidestep the musical content - they talk about everything else. In the cases when they are forced to talk about the music itself they tend to use very ephemeral, emotion-laden terms, because if they write in there anything approaching actual musical fact, like stuff that can be reasonably verified, then they have the possibility of getting it wrong, and revealing that they don't really know what they're talking about when it comes to music and thus looking like douches.

From an industry perspective I suppose a perfect song would be the one that the most amount of people are willing to shell out money for. Elton John's "Candle In The Wind" is currently the highest-selling worldwide single of all time so I guess there you go. Not really my cup of tea personally, but I can't argue with 33 million records sold.

Notice how I've dodged the question of my own personal music taste. That's because I don't feel that it's relevant - I don't think my opinion of music from a personal taste point of view is any better than anyone else's, and I don't really want to put my favourite artists up on a pedestal - not in this thread anyway. You could ask any random in the street what they think a perfect song is and of course it will be different for everyone. It's a bit like asking "what is the perfect man/woman?" - I don't think a universal answer to that question is helpful. Different people like different shit.
 

thedeathscythe

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BonsaiK said:
thedeathscythe said:
-snip-
Yeah, I guess it is biased, eh? Like Xbox Magazine giving best console of the year to...Xbox.

But there's something about that song that let's me put it on repeat for hours (I'll take it off to listen to more of their stuff, though, but I have listened to it for extended periods, to say the least). I suppose everyone defines it differently, and there's no wrong answer. It just made me think about what a truly perfect song would be. Probably one EVERYONE in the world likes, which is impossible.

The more and more I think about it, the more and more an article trying to describe the perfect song seems to just come off as "Read me to find out!" and not really "Here's why this song is really good.". Nevertheless, the song shall remain on repeat for me for the time being :D
 

InnerRebellion

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I'm a keyboard player and I write poems. My friends want me to try and be in their band, but they don't know what kind of music they want to play yet. What genres does keyboard actually go with, and what purpose should it serve in the music?
Also, as I am a poet, my friends also want me to write lyrics. Normally, my poems are short. How exactly can I get these poems to extend into decent length songs?
 

BonsaiK

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RhombusHatesYou said:
Should I abandon my dreams of chasing fame and fortune as part of an all kazoo experimental jazz quintet?
You probably won't ever top the charts around the world, but novelty acts have their place and can make money. At least your idea is different, with good execution who knows where it could lead? ;)
 

BonsaiK

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InnerRebellion said:
I'm a keyboard player and I write poems. My friends want me to try and be in their band, but they don't know what kind of music they want to play yet. What genres does keyboard actually go with, and what purpose should it serve in the music?
Also, as I am a poet, my friends also want me to write lyrics. Normally, my poems are short. How exactly can I get these poems to extend into decent length songs?
Keyboards can go with any genre, because ever since the birth of sampled sound, a keyboard can sound like literally anything at all. Listen to this song - a three-piece band - vocals, keyboards, and drums:


There's really no limit to what you can do with a keyboard, and no specific place it has to be in. The traditional place for it as a backing instrument to fill out the sound, but you can do solos with it if you really want:


The only limitation might be in the equipment itself, but if you have a fairly modern setup the musical world is your oyster really.

Most songs are only about half a page of "poetry" at most. Don't be fooled into thinking you need heaps of words to make something decently catchy and interesting. For every "American Pie" there are hundreds of songs with only a few lines, that were just as popular:


The Young Gods' track I posted above also has bugger-all lyrics, I'm sure you noticed.

A good length for a pop song is usually about four lines of text for each verse, and you only need two verses, the third is optional. The chorus can be any old thing as long as it's catchy.

If you've got short poems that's great, they may work well as songs already. Although rather than trying to transfer a poem wholesale into a song, you might want to get poems you've already written and cherry-pick the catchiest lines, and build songs out of that. When writing for vocalists it pays to give attention to things like vocal meter, so the lyrics flow properly. It's not just rappers who have to worry about "flow", regular singers also need to make sure their syllables flow correctly and they're not rushing words which should be given more space or whatever.
 

Ham_authority95

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People say that they don't pirate because they "want to support the artist."

My question is, how much money from record sales ACTUALLY goes to the artist, instead of the record label?
 

BonsaiK

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Nov 14, 2007
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Ham_authority95 said:
People say that they don't pirate because they "want to support the artist."

My question is, how much money from record sales ACTUALLY goes to the artist, instead of the record label?
That's a really good question. It varies wildly from case to case.

Firstly, does the artist owe the record label money? When big artists get signed they often get a big chunk of money to record their album. However that money is not a gift, it's a loan, which then needs to be paid back through album sales. The band typically sees no money at all until the debt is repaid. Let's take the example of a pop band who had a couple of huge and I mean huge singles that they released off their own bat, a record label picks them up and likes them so much that they give then $100,000 to record their album. The band goes "fuck yeah $100,000 thanks a bunch", records their album, and spends the change on cars, clothes, hookers, drugs, whatever. Their album does okay, they do end up selling a few thousand copies of their album, enough to repay the loan, but they still never see any money. Why not? Because every time the label does things to promote that artist, that money gets added to the existing debt. More sales fuel more promotion and it just goes around and around, the band never gets in the black. A few years later, the band goes cold in the marketplace as music fashion changes, their albums stop selling, and they're in debt up to their eyeballs, they eventually go "fuck this" and pack it in. Ever wonder what happens to those bands that were huge for a few years and then suddenly dropped off the radar, now you know...

So, let's assume that the band were clever, and were offered $100,000 and said "actually, no - we'll record our album for $5000, and by the way we'll have our lawyer look over the contract and make sure that you can't do any promotion and charge our debt without our collective authorisation" so the label gives them the $5000, they record their album, it does reasonably well, the label doesn't go crazy with stupid advertising, and they're in the black in a few months. So how much money are they getting?

Well, did they write their own songs? If not - uh oh. Cover songs - the original songwriters are the ones who collect the royalties. A band I'm friends with (who shall remain nameless) had a massive national hit a few years ago - with a cover song. I took the singer to lunch one day and said "so how much money have you seen?" - the answer - "we get a wage from the label, which is about enough money for pizza and cigarettes, but we don't see any CD sales money at all, we owe them too much money. The only other money we see is from merch sales". If you're selling a single that's a cover song and it becomes a big hit, you'd better at least hope that you wrote track 2.

If the band did write their own material, well it varies depending on what's in the contract. The lowest royalty rate you'll see on a major label is about 5%, and the highest might be 25%. Obviously a band who is hot in the marketplace or has a significant track record of sales weilds more negotiating power and can demand better treatment here. Independent labels sometimes offer better deals than this, sometimes not. Really small labels will often go 50/50 with artists once expenses are covered as a matter of principle, but then getting a big monster hit on one of these small labels is unlikely because they might not be able to give you the promotional push a larger label with more money can. Of course if you release completely independently, then you get all the money, but then you're also paying your own production, promotional and logistic costs, the stuff a label would normally take care of for you.

This is a wild oversimplification, I haven't talked about "reserves", "overruns" or what happens when you sell music on the internet (where royalties are less due to legal technicalities) but that'll give you some general idea. The short answer to your question is "probably not much - but as a general rule, the bigger the label, the more potential sales you can make, but the less money you see per unit".
 

Ham_authority95

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BonsaiK said:
Ham_authority95 said:
People say that they don't pirate because they "want to support the artist."

My question is, how much money from record sales ACTUALLY goes to the artist, instead of the record label?
This is a wild oversimplification, I haven't talked about "reserves", "overruns" or what happens when you sell music on the internet (where royalties are less due to legal technicalities) but that'll give you some general idea. The short answer to your question is "probably not much - but as a general rule, the bigger the label, the more potential sales you can make, but the less money you see per unit".
Ok. Thanks for answering this. I now understand why my under-ground metalhead friends say "Support your bands by going to concerts and buying shirts, not buying records."
 

BonsaiK

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Nov 14, 2007
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Ham_authority95 said:
BonsaiK said:
Ham_authority95 said:
People say that they don't pirate because they "want to support the artist."

My question is, how much money from record sales ACTUALLY goes to the artist, instead of the record label?
This is a wild oversimplification, I haven't talked about "reserves", "overruns" or what happens when you sell music on the internet (where royalties are less due to legal technicalities) but that'll give you some general idea. The short answer to your question is "probably not much - but as a general rule, the bigger the label, the more potential sales you can make, but the less money you see per unit".
Ok. Thanks for answering this. I now understand why my under-ground metalhead friends say "Support your bands by going to concerts and buying shirts, not buying records."
This is correct. If the bands made merch (shirts, badges, stickers, etc) themselves, they see 100% of the money from them. Of course they had to pay for them to be made but it's still easily possible to operate at a profit. Concerts are another thing - the venue and any technical staff (mixer, lights, etc) take a cut but if they get enough heads through the door they can do well and once bands get popular enough to fill medium-size venues, serious money gets made. Festivals work differently - the bands see no "head in the door" money at all (they still make merch money if they sell merch though), but bigger high-drawing bands will just get given a flat fee to perform at a festival, smaller bands will do it to build a fanbase. I guess anybody who cares about supporting their local music industry should try and make the effort to see their favourite bands when they can.
 

Ham_authority95

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BonsaiK said:
Ham_authority95 said:
BonsaiK said:
Ham_authority95 said:
People say that they don't pirate because they "want to support the artist."

My question is, how much money from record sales ACTUALLY goes to the artist, instead of the record label?
This is a wild oversimplification, I haven't talked about "reserves", "overruns" or what happens when you sell music on the internet (where royalties are less due to legal technicalities) but that'll give you some general idea. The short answer to your question is "probably not much - but as a general rule, the bigger the label, the more potential sales you can make, but the less money you see per unit".
Ok. Thanks for answering this. I now understand why my under-ground metalhead friends say "Support your bands by going to concerts and buying shirts, not buying records."
This is correct. If the bands made merch (shirts, badges, stickers, etc) themselves, they see 100% of the money from them. Of course they had to pay for them to be made but it's still easily possible to operate at a profit. Concerts are another thing - the venue and any technical staff (mixer, lights, etc) take a cut but if they get enough heads through the door they can do well and once bands get popular enough to fill medium-size venues, serious money gets made. Festivals work differently - the bands see no "head in the door" money at all (they still make merch money if they sell merch though), but bigger high-drawing bands will just get given a flat fee to perform at a festival, smaller bands will do it to build a fanbase. I guess anybody who cares about supporting their local music industry should try and make the effort to see their favourite bands when they can.
How much would the flat fee for festivals be? And how much of that fee do bigger bands earn back by playing the festivals?
 

BonsaiK

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Nov 14, 2007
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Ham_authority95 said:
How much would the flat fee for festivals be? And how much of that fee do bigger bands earn back by playing the festivals?
Well, no band gets charged to pay a festival, unless it's something like the numerous "band competition" style events that exist (which no band should ever enter by the way).

A small band would possibly get no money for playing a festival if they're local, they would just do it for the exposure most likely. At a bare minimum a band will get their travel expenses covered and maybe accommodation expenses too if they are coming from out of town. Bigger bands who have the capability to pull a big crowd to a festival have the leeway to charge fees to perform. It's hard to place a ballpark figure on this because the fees vary wildly from band to band. It's really just down to what festival organisers feel that the particular band is worth to them. It can be a few thousand just to cover costs, up to ridiculous sums for the really big acts. I know one band (no names) who will not play anywhere for under $1 million, but they can get away with charging that much because they are enough of a household name that people will come to see them. Of course in the case of charity/benefit/fundraiser events bands may waive part or all of these fees by choice, or because the financial arrangements of the festival require that they do so.
 

BonsaiK

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Nov 14, 2007
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FargoDog said:
Hello. A couple of pages ago I asked some stuff about the band I'm in, but I had a question about solo artists.

To put it more into context, I was wanting to do some side-project stuff away from my band just by myself. I was wanting to do acoustic/blues stuff really, in the vain of John Mayer (who I'm a big fan of, despite a lot of people apparently disliking him). Anyway, I was wondering if you could suggest the best way to go about this and just out of curiosity, how do most solo-artists get into the industry?
If you want a gentle start, try doing some open mic nights and see how you go - any town or city of a reasonable size has venues that do open mic nights somewhere. They're a good testing ground. If you're received well, try building a little following and then booking some gigs for yourself.

Some solo artists pitch themselves straight to labels and have success, but if you don't look incredibly marketable like Taylor Swift etc that's unlikely to yield fruit. A better way is just to do a shit-ton of gigs, as many as possible, meet other artists, build a network, and repeat. After a while you might have a network that stretches across a whole country and then you can do a tour and sleep on people's floors punk rock style... then pitch yourself to a label. If you've got experience and a following under your belt, a label is more likely to take you on because they know they've got someone they can sell records to...