current souls fans, would an easier souls game make you not want to play it

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

No, because the appeal of the Souls series is its difficulty.

Not the smooth action or the interesting settings or the foreboding atmosphere or the character growth? The Souls series is carried by more than just its difficulty, but its difficulty is what elevates it to godhood.

If they made a good action RPG, so long as it's not so easy it can't be enjoyed, then I might still play it. However, if they make Dark Souls 2 significantly easier, I will be seriously disappointed.

What gets people into it in the first place is its legendary difficulty. I haven't played enough to get into any of the things you listed. Neither have any of the people I know. I know one person who played lots of Demon's Souls, but he doesn't care about the characters or the setting. He says its interesting, but they don't let you know enough about it to actually care about it.

 

[lapan]

No, because the appeal of the Souls series is its difficulty.

The difficulty is honestly overhyped. It has a steep learning courve and people mistake that with difficulty. Once you learn the gameplay it get's a shitton easier. The appeal for me is personally the variations on different weapons, not being bound to specific classes and being able to chance the playing style completely at all times.

Being able to take on every enemy in the game with dual-shields for example is a very exciting feeing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJat7fGQJ7I&list=PLIlU_HVFob8CWzMpm4O_Y_JIfvxc14z8o


OT:
It would depend on how they implement this difficulty. Splitting the playerbase will hurt PVP, especially if they really plan to go back to a regional server system. Changing the basic combat mechanics would change it into a different game.
I'd be okay with a better tutorial as long as it's either skipable or not one of those annoying tuts where it only let's you press the button it wants at that moment. Making a more reliable summoning system would also be a valid option to make the game easier.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Wow OP you just made up a whole article on no information at all, you should be a writer at IGN.
Mostly presuming a game can only come out in one flavor, perhaps we all need to go back to basics and learn games are an interactive medium, i.e. the user chooses his experience... and until this is a comprehendable concept we can't really tackle the subject.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

No, because the appeal of the Souls series is its difficulty.

The difficulty is honestly overhyped. It has a steep learning courve and people mistake that with difficulty. Once you learn the gameplay it get's a shitton easier. The appeal for me is personally the variations on different weapons, not being bound to specific classes and being able to chance the playing style completely at all times.

Being able to take on every enemy in the game with dual-shields for example is a very exciting feeing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJat7fGQJ7I&list=PLIlU_HVFob8CWzMpm4O_Y_JIfvxc14z8o


OT:
It would depend on how they implement this difficulty. Splitting the playerbase will hurt PVP, especially if they really plan to go back to a regional server system. Changing the basic combat mechanics would change it into a different game.
I'd be okay with a better tutorial as long as it's either skipable or not one of those annoying tuts where it only let's you press the button it wants at that moment. Making a more reliable summoning system would also be a valid option to make the game easier.

I agree. Most of my problems came from playing it on PC without a gamepad.
[sup][sup]I like your avatar.[/sup][/sup]

 

[BlackFlyme]

I wouldn't want to play it because if casuals can play it it won't add to my e-peen. Seriously easy mode takes out enjoyment of beating the game. The fun from the series (I've only played Demon Souls) is overcoming the challenge. This is coming from someone who sucks and never beat it.

LOOK! HIDDEN TEXT!

Here's the thing: Somebody shows me the game of chess. I like chess, so I learn all about it until I can play chess and not insta-lose against the chess pro hobo down in the park.

Now, if chess is my thing, nine men's morris might well look a bit like it from afar, being all black-and-white or brown-and-cream or opaque-and-clear or ebony-and-ivory - but it's definitely not the same game. You can't make chess 'more easy', as the game is in its perfect shape already. You can't add squares or a piece. With a Souls game, you only really need to create a new world to conquer, new foes to identify and dispose of in the most stylish manner and new riddles, traps and environmental hazards to glue me to the edge of my comfy gaming chair until it's all over again. Farm FMV, melonfarm QTE, the Souls games are where it's at. It's a white truffle, a diamond sailing the sea of mud, the marriage ring shining brightly in a pile of dog poop.

Oh no, you found it (So was it by highlighting or quoting?)

Although I don't get your chess metaphor at all. You can make chess more easy, face a kid then face a veteran. Same mechanics, but do you feel the same victory beating a kid? I can't even tell if that was the point you were going for.

I believe that he is talking about the mechanics of the game itself. In a game that already features dodging, parrying, the ability to stagger the enemy, and various different methods of attacking the enemy whether through magic, archery, etc., can you make it easier without actually changing the A.I. itself? Likewise, can you change the mechanics of chess while still keeping fair for both players?

Changing these mechanics to give the player a longer period to parry, staggering enemies more easily while being staggered less, or having shields block more damage types comes to mind. But would chess still be fun if all your pieces could move twice as far as the opponent's pieces?

 

[Carnagath]

There already is an easy mode that kills the atmosphere and trivializes all the encounters, it's called co-op, where a bunch of people sprint around and mash R2 and everything dies. I wouldn't care if they added another one, I'll just avoid it as I do with co-op. As for the tutorials, they would be a good thing. Exploration happens in the game world, not the UI. Nobody likes having their laptop around all the time to check out the wiki page, so making it more clear how everything works and synergises would be great.

 

[TehCookie]

I wouldn't want to play it because if casuals can play it it won't add to my e-peen. Seriously easy mode takes out enjoyment of beating the game. The fun from the series (I've only played Demon Souls) is overcoming the challenge. This is coming from someone who sucks and never beat it.

LOOK! HIDDEN TEXT!

Here's the thing: Somebody shows me the game of chess. I like chess, so I learn all about it until I can play chess and not insta-lose against the chess pro hobo down in the park.

Now, if chess is my thing, nine men's morris might well look a bit like it from afar, being all black-and-white or brown-and-cream or opaque-and-clear or ebony-and-ivory - but it's definitely not the same game. You can't make chess 'more easy', as the game is in its perfect shape already. You can't add squares or a piece. With a Souls game, you only really need to create a new world to conquer, new foes to identify and dispose of in the most stylish manner and new riddles, traps and environmental hazards to glue me to the edge of my comfy gaming chair until it's all over again. Farm FMV, melonfarm QTE, the Souls games are where it's at. It's a white truffle, a diamond sailing the sea of mud, the marriage ring shining brightly in a pile of dog poop.

Oh no, you found it (So was it by highlighting or quoting?)

Although I don't get your chess metaphor at all. You can make chess more easy, face a kid then face a veteran. Same mechanics, but do you feel the same victory beating a kid? I can't even tell if that was the point you were going for.

I believe that he is talking about the mechanics of the game itself. In a game that already features dodging, parrying, the ability to stagger the enemy, and various different methods of attacking the enemy whether through magic, archery, etc., can you make it easier without actually changing the A.I. itself? Likewise, can you change the mechanics of chess while still keeping fair for both players?

Changing these mechanics to give the player a longer period to parry, staggering enemies more easily while being staggered less, or having shields block more damage types comes to mind. But would chess still be fun if all your pieces could move twice as far as the opponent's pieces?

The whole new vs veteran player was an A.I comparison, why wouldn't that work? When it comes to difficulty settings, I prefer games that do it like that, since it keeps all the other pieces. Though I did point out that I still wouldn't like it if it did that since Dark Souls is suppose to be a game that challenges you.

 

[BlackFlyme]

The whole new vs veteran player was an A.I comparison, why wouldn't that work? When it comes to difficulty settings, I prefer games that do it like that, since it keeps all the other pieces. Though I did point out that I still wouldn't like it if it did that since Dark Souls is suppose to be a game that challenges you.

I agree, changing the A.I. difficulty is probably the best way to change difficulty in a game, but as many have mentioned, Dark Souls does not lend itself well to an easy mode. I was just trying to make sense of the chess analogy, as mechanically, the game is fine, which I think was the point he was trying to say, although I believe the dual wielding system needs some work.

I also agree that the main draw of the game is it's challenge, and an easy mode would only work against the game, unless they drastically change the game to the point where it would not be recognizable anymore, which I'm sure few people would want.

Although I think the A.I. could use some work, as I'm sure most people who have played co-op can attest to, due to the A.I.'s inability to focus on more than one player at a time, leading to a boss just spinning in circles as players hit it one after the other while flanking, or a mob jumping to it's death because it didn't notice a gap in the floor between it and the player. Though the mobs falling is only really more common in areas like the great hollow or the tomb of giants due to the mobs being as wide as the walkways.

 

[Nomanslander]

What ever happens... happens! I'm still going to play it and like it as long as they don't really fuck up the formula.

But remember Dragon Age 2, and when the devs decided to take the game in another direction. The original game was suppose to be made for the hardcore Buldur's Gate style RPG fans, and with the sequel they decided they wanted to cash in with the more action RPG oriented crowd. Remember that, then remember the reaction from the fans when the game came out.

Well, that's what people are worried about.

As for the subject matter of an easy mode that "theoretically" won't effect the hard mode. Well, remember Bioshock 2 when the devs announced the game would have a MP mode. Everyone said, "Bioshock doesn't need an MP, the game is about the story, not MP." So many people were pissed even though "theoretically" the MP wouldn't have much of an effect on the single player. I mean if you want single player, you got it. If you'd like to try the MP, well there you go...

If you want to the real hardcore DS experience, well the game has it. If you want an easy mode, well, there you go... 0.o

 

[Yopaz]

Two things i'm worried about .

A) allowing people playing on easy mode( if there is one ) , to interact with everyone else online . Now this is for balancing reasons . If i invite a guy playing on easy and he can't carry his weigh ( because his difficulty gets changed to normal), it sucks for both me and him . Now if i join a guy , and my difficulty tuens to easy and i blaze though it , again sucks for both of us . OR of i invade someone on easy mode , they are likely to be less able to defeat me and thus gives me the advantage . Or inversely , getting invaded by someone in easy mode the same level as me but with better gear because grinding gear is easier and such , giving me me a disadvantage .

And B) If the say screw difficulty levels we are making the entire game easier . I want more bone crushing difficulty . I want it harder , tougher . I want MORE dark souls . Not less , i can't go from something hard and satisfying to something easy . It just wouldn't be the same .

Left 4 Dead has difficulty settings and online interaction without running into this problem. Hmm, how can we solve this problem? Maybe if we don't let those playing on different difficulty settings play together?

OT: Depends. If it's just an added easy mode with the normal difficulty still prsent why not? Having difficulty settings could also lead to a hard mode, a very hard mode or even an even more brutal mode. As long as the core game stays intact I can't see any problems with it.

 

[Rawne1980]

Of course I would because i'm not a tool.

"Dark Souls should stay hard because we're elitist pricks".

Dark Souls is not fucking hard. It's only hard if you're shit at it. Demon's Souls was hard because none of us were expecting it. As soon as you found out that grinding was the way to go and not to charge into fights like a muppet it became easy.

Sticking an easy mode into any of the Souls games while leaving in the "hard" mode for those that want to feel special does not, I repeat, DOES NOT change the game for anyone.

New players get to enjoy an easier mode while returning players get to keep the hard mode.

It's still there.

Anyone complaining about an easy mode while the normal mode is still around is just whining for the sake of whining. It's like being around a loud fart, it's foul, there is a faint whiff of shit about it and it comes from arse holes.

As for what's been said about Dark Souls 2, we know nothing yet.

We've had one interview with a vague comment and the rest is just wild speculation.

I'm not going to fly into a rage on speculation because that's just silly.

 

[lapan]

Dark Souls is not fucking hard. It's only hard if you're shit at it. Demon's Souls was hard because none of us were expecting it. As soon as you found out that grinding was the way to go and not to charge into fights like a muppet it became easy.

Actually there is little grinding involved, except that for upgrade materials or some rare weapons that only drop as random enemy drops. I agree on the rest. Once you learn to aproach new enemies with caution and to keep attention to stamina and equipment weight the game gets easy.

Anyone complaining about an easy mode while the normal mode is still around is just whining for the sake of whining. It's like being around a loud fart, it's foul, there is a faint whiff of shit about it and it comes from arse holes.

Depends. If it means that the co-op and pvp userbase gets further split people will complain, and rightly so. Waiting ages to get some multiplayer action going is boring.

 

[gigastar]

Well Dark Souls 2 will certainly be a different beast from Demons- and Dark Souls as this one has new directors at the helm.

We will see how it pans out.

.. based on the information we have been given about how they want to make it more of an action game, want to limit the amount of choices you have to make, and seemingly want to make a linear story that you dont really have as much control over

Get a source for your rumors and speculation next time.

The only thing we have in terms of a source at the moment is an interview with the new directors. I've been trying to find it, but when i try searching google i only get people's reactions to the article.

The only thing i know for sure is that the new directors said they want the game to be more "straightforward and understandable", which can mean just about anything.

If I manage to find the article I'll update this post.


Found it. I gave up on google and went straight to Edge itself.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/dark-souls-iis-new-director-on-making-one-of-the-toughest-series-in-videogames-more-accessible/

I also found an interview with Miyazaki, the director of the first Dark Souls, and it is much more reassuring.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/miyazaki-insists-dark-souls-ii-will-stay-true-to-what-fans-expect/

Yes, but whats said in those interviews are still a far cry from tem making Dark Souls 2...

...more of an action game, want to limit the amount of choices you have to make, and seemingly want to make a linear story that you dont really have as much control over

 

[NightHawk21]

Let me preface this by saying I haven't played the games yet.

For the issue at hand, I don't think anyone has a valid argument for them not including an easy mode as long as its done well. There were a couple valid points raised about stuff like not allowing for easy players to interact with normal characters (and vice-versa), but they mostly point seem to get at the idea that if easy is to exist it should be a separate entity and not affect their difficult version.

Those that are making the argument that no, because dark souls is supposed to be hard, or some other nonsensical statement, well in short your argument is stupid and bad. The difficulty is not going anywhere. There is talk of an addition of an easy mode, not the elimination of the normal mode. The brutal, no forgiveness gameplay that you claim to love will still be there. Why would you deprive other people who might be interested in the game, but not in its difficulty the ability to play and enjoy its contents? Sure they may not get the full experience of the game in your opinion (they probably won't in my opinion), but why is that your call to make? Let them play the game and decide for themselves.

The above argument eventually boils down to plain pointless elitism. People whose lives are empty, their lives are unfulfilling, or maybe they're just bitter and afraid of change, who don't want a change because it makes them feel special.

You know I am so bloody tired of people like you calling purists elitist because they feel that an easy mode cheapens the game. I have reported that very statement I dont know how many bloody times but the moderators of the forum refuse to address the personal attack on us. By definition an elitest seeks to be exclusionary and the souls community is anything but that, we've always been inclusionary. We've always tried to be helpful, to offer advice, to help people adapt to the challenges of Dark souls but for all those attempts people like you keep attacking us and calling us elitest. Im sick of it. How about you all make an actual intelligent argument while listening to our side without relying on insulting our views?

They won't do anything because its not a personal attack by definition. You're statment also makes no logical sense. How could an easy mode, whose only reason is to include a greater amount of people who can't or won't play at that difficulty level. Its good that you're offering helpful advice, a strong community can make or brake games, especially hard ones, but it is important to consider that some people can't play at that level no matter how much they try or just simply don't enjoy it.

Hell look at Dota 2. The game is very hard to play at a good level to the point where I'm a couple hundred hours in and still make plenty of mistakes, but there is a community with a lot of resources for me to draw upon. Some people however like the style and the game, but don't/ can't play at my level or higher and are put against easier players or have the option to play bots.

In much the same way between the two games I imagine, the community actively strives to teach and encourage the players to get better, but some people don't want to or can't invest the time to get that good, so there should be options for them to experience the game as well.

There's your intelligent argument, lets here yours now.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

I wouldn't mind if they added a proper tutorial; the one in DS was a bit brief and didn't really mention the importance of things like poise at all. But that's all I'd want them to do. If they made the game easier across the board, I wouldn't play it. Simple as. The challenge is what makes it rewarding.

 

[Jack Rascal]

In much the same way between the two games I imagine, the community actively strives to teach and encourage the players to get better, but some people don't want to or can't invest the time to get that good, so there should be options for them to experience the game as well.

Sorry to intrude, but I just have to say this. In the developers' own words:

"It's rare for a modern game to be designed so meticulously to enrage and engulf its players in a world that doesn't offer even the most basic assistance. Its enemies are relentless and its areas labyrinthine."

This is what the game is about. This particular line is taken from their mini-guide that came with the pre-order copy and is now available with a little google search. The guide is what you can call "easy mode". Don't have the energy to learn the game on your own? Read the guide. Not all games need to be made with the same mold. You can experience this game without reading the guide if you dedicate time to it or you can read the guide and have an easier ride.

Demon's or Dark Souls is not a difficult game when you strip it to its basics. All you need is patience. If you do not have that and/or are unwilling to spare the time required to learn this game, then I don't think you should be playing it. "Making it more accessible" is not necessarily a good thing.

I don't have anything against easy modes per se, but I am against games changing to include the masses. I don't see how Dark Souls could have an easy mode without changing the core game. When someone comes in and tells me how that can be done, I'm probably all for it.

But, I don't get why so many people insist that this game should be changed to fit their taste or busy life. The reason this game was praised was, well, for what it is. It's a game where you have to learn things on your own, enemies forgive nothing and there is a story but you must find it yourself. So why do want to play the game if you don't want to learn things on your own, hate enemies that can actually offer a challenge and need the story to be spoon fed?

 

[Sordin]

If the changes you mention come to pass I will probably wait until its on sale dirt cheap and pick it up. I hope it wont come to that but in the end I will still pick it up because its set in Lordran and it may have more lore for us which would be great. But to be honest if they do make the changes they mention I may have to go into mourning for the loss of one of my favorite series's.

 

[ThePuzzldPirate]

It comes down to whether or not they mess with the game formula to make it easier. If it starts taking in modern game design which is beautiful linear hallways, health regen, QTE, flashy over efficient and the all encompassing arrow pointing directly where to go than I'm going to stay far away.

I'm in the camp that this game doesn't need an easy mode but the series could do a better job of explaining themselves. The best way to play a game is to actually know the rules for it and just with that, people wouldn't find these games so difficult.

The game still keeps it's mood, difficulty and design while being more accessible, everyone wins.

 

[00slash00]

Well Dark Souls 2 will certainly be a different beast from Demons- and Dark Souls as this one has new directors at the helm.

We will see how it pans out.

.. based on the information we have been given about how they want to make it more of an action game, want to limit the amount of choices you have to make, and seemingly want to make a linear story that you dont really have as much control over

Get a source for your rumors and speculation next time.

The only thing we have in terms of a source at the moment is an interview with the new directors. I've been trying to find it, but when i try searching google i only get people's reactions to the article.

The only thing i know for sure is that the new directors said they want the game to be more "straightforward and understandable", which can mean just about anything.

If I manage to find the article I'll update this post.


Found it. I gave up on google and went straight to Edge itself.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/dark-souls-iis-new-director-on-making-one-of-the-toughest-series-in-videogames-more-accessible/

I also found an interview with Miyazaki, the director of the first Dark Souls, and it is much more reassuring.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/miyazaki-insists-dark-souls-ii-will-stay-true-to-what-fans-expect/

Yes, but whats said in those interviews are still a far cry from tem making Dark Souls 2...

...more of an action game, want to limit the amount of choices you have to make, and seemingly want to make a linear story that you dont really have as much control over

hahaha its a forum post, not a news article. whats more, its a forum post about whether people would consider playing dark souls 2 if all the rumors ended up being true. given that, im sorry but i dont feel citing my sources is all that necessary. but if you insist, youtube epicnamebro channel, it should be one of his more recent videos. in the interview he does talk about the fact that they said they want to make dark souls 2 more action oriented and want to limit your choices in the beginning. also, unless the translation was wrong, they said the guy you see in the trailer is the character you play as and the girl in the trailer is your love interest. if true, that means you arent carving your story as you go, youre following the story they have made for you. not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly a lot different from how souls games have been thus far.