No, so now go, read other treads who have asked the same thing, and stop making these stupid treads. It ultimately doesnt matter since the devs will do what they think is best.
current souls fans, would an easier souls game make you not want to play it
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Wow, thanks. I think that's the nicest someones ever been to me on a gaming message board.NightHawk21 said:
I usually try to empathize with both sides of an argument to find a middle ground. However I am having quite a lot of trouble understanding the backlash against the suggestion of an easy mode option. The only way I could argue against it would be from the perspective of an easy mode where the player becomes invincible and all challenge is removed, but that is pretty ridiculous as learning enemy attack patterns is a part of the game and is extremely likely to still be a part of it even in easy mode.
So maybe my earlier use of the term elitism is misused, I'd relate it more to a sort of in-group hysteria. Where the extreme negative reaction of a few had spread to others who haven't even tried to empathize with those they are arguing against. An easy mode implemented even just adequately would be a good thing for the Souls series. Implemented well would be fantastic and hopefully foster the growth of the franchise.
So... I want to know the same thing as you, "why would you be against it?"
s69-5 that video, 61 is... garbage, I stopped it 10 mins in because he swears black and blue throughout the whole thing, it's really really offensive and I found it a bit ironic that you were trying to report someone for the use of the word 'Elitist' while also posting something like that. That's just disgusting.s69-5 said:
The only real statement he seemed to be making that far in what that because more people on message boards were complaining about an easy mode that it was a good reason they shouldn't do it, also that it was never their intention to. Now this may be news to you but a large percentage of gamers don't bother posting on message boards, with casuals more likely to fall into that group. People arguing against an easy mode are essentially a vocal minority of Dark Souls Players, however do not represent the wider community.
This effects things in two ways. Because there is no intent to have an easy mode at this time, the intention of said arguers is to suppress any potential discussion of it and to discourage the developers from mention of it in the future. It is utterly selfish behavior as stated in one of my previous posts you can build the game up for normal difficulty and reverse engineer an easy mode that would still provide an adequate challenge to "casual" or "newer" players.
I may take it that your point was in the last 30 mins of that video, but... I'm not listening to something that needlessly vulgar. If you could, feel free to summarize it for me.
You make some good points at face value, unfortunately its only at face value and not in reality. Lets take a closer look shall we?NightHawk21 said:
The creators: The development team said, before dark souls was released, that the difficulty was an important tool to create a sense of accomplishment and discovery. With the inclusion of an easy mode that sense of accomplishment is lessened, if not lost. So yes, it cheapens the game for them in the sense that the stated goals of the game and their artistic method are lessened
The investors: On paper targeting people outside the core audience of a franchise sounds like more sales. The problem is history has proven this to be completely false. Anytime a franchise has reinvented itself to pull in more players it has always had the same 3 core problems. 1. The core audience it was targeting becomes disatisfied and leaves. 2. The reinvention never really targets new people, giving a mediocre experience to them and translates into less sales. 3. The franchises are quickly forgotten or slowly die out. Now your argument also falls flat because investors are often less concerned about good products and more concerned about getting a good company name. The more money companies make when they're sold the more of a cut an investor gets. So yes, it cheapens it for the investor since they have less money coming in over the long haul (although thats not being fair to investors like me who invest because they believe in the project and not purely for monetary reasons)
The consumers: Which consumers are you talking about exactly? I assume it to be the people who bought and currently play dark souls. Ive said many times before that for Dark souls to have any sense of accomplishment there must be a chance of failure. An easy mode removes that chance to fail therefore making our experience mean nothing. So yes, it cheapens it for us too
Now for the artistic side. I have a similar view. I believe artistic method is sacrosanct. Unless a gamer has been promised something (and I only put that exception in there because of the ME3 endings debacle) they have no right to demand change. However every person has a right to criticize art. This isnt comparing two lawn mowers and writing a review on which cuts my lawn better its looking at a piece of art and deciphering the expressions of the development team, then expressing how those expressions could have been done better. Now we know that the expression of Dark souls is in the form of difficulty, made to give the player a sense of accomplishment and discovery. How does an easy mode better provide a player with an equal or greater sense of accomplishment and discovery if it removes the chance of failure in the process?
Ya I'm not going to watch at 37 minute long video (which the guy admits right at the start might get ranty), I'm not that invested in this topic. I don't understand why you think the core game, and every single mode would have to be modified. It just doesn't make any sense to me, and there have been a lot of possible solutions posted in this thread that I think would address the problems well without injuring your experience. Here's a post with 3 very good solutions I think could be implemented pretty easily:s69-5 said:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/for...-make-you-not-want-to-play-it?page=3#16212593
You'll notice I never actually called anyone an elitist directly, I called the argument elitist. I have nothing against these people directly, and looking back on it the part following that might be a tad out of line (irregardless of whatever truth that may have for some of the people that hold that idea).s69-5 said:
As for my points, I fail to see how my first post wasn't valid to you. Are we thinking of the same post? The one in which I tried (and failed) to find a reason why an easy mode shouldn't be added assuming the core gameplay stays the same?
I didn't know you got to decide what games are made for what people. I thought people decided that for themselves and saying "Man I would really love to play this game, but I can't" to the developer (along with lots of other people which is why this is even an issue) was a perfectly legitimate form of feedback.s69-5 said:
In a perfect world I think you should be able to play Dishonored and Far Cry 3 in 3rd person if first person makes you ill, I've heard both are fantastic games it would be a shame for you not to experience. I think the current situtation is somewhat different in that there is apparently a substantial amount of people asking for an easy mode while I now two people that can't play fps games (you and one person IRL). Still I would suggest you try to find some people with similar conditions and maybe write to the developer and see if they can't release a patch that will allow you to play the campaign in 3rd person. You might not get the full experience, what with the advantages 3rd person offers, but that is ultimately your choice to make.
Lastly I'd love to know where you pulled that last quote from. This thread has been running a few days so I can't remember every post, but I think you might want to reread it again (in its entirety, without the eclipses), as I believe you misinterpreted as me saying they don't like the game, when I'm fairly certain it should be they don't like the hard difficulty. Hope that clears it up
I would pose a question to finish up this reply. If an easy mode could be implemented in such a way that the core game is not changed (ie. the game you know and love is the same, just there is an option of an easy mode for other people. You can think of it as a completely separate game with the same characters, story, monsters and progression if that helps), would you still be against it?
Ok, where to begin.s69-5 said:
A - There are boss fights that can drag on for a while hence the higher attack power would result in a slightly shorter fight duration where as you mentioned normal mobs would be relatively unaffected. The higher hp would likely only allow limited increased survivability, not invincibility, the player would still need to learn to avoid attacks and to look for openings. Also most mobs knock back and interrupe making outright attacks even with increased hp unviable.
B - There were quite a few areas where enemies were grouped up. I'm talking about removing like 1 from a pack of 3 or 2 from a pack of 5. In these quantities there should still be enough enemies to challenge an easy mode player but not enough to overwhelm them, with the higher soul quantities to reduce the amount of grinding players would need to do if they were stuck.
C - They may appear glacial to a pro like you, but to newbies those glacial moves as you call them can seem lightning fast. Not everyone has lightning fast reflexes or the gaming experience to instantly know what a movement means, and learning these movements is part of the game, but that becomes redundant if you cannot see them. However I do know that this is an unlikely scenario for easy mode and likely would require the most testing, the other two points are more robust. However just outright saying fail just makes your argument seem quite biased.
It does seem like you are just taking the negative for the sake of it without even trying to empathize with other players who want to get into the series and want to take away from it a complete experience. How hard is it to understand that sharing a game you love with others is a good thing?
I'd still play it, because I play everything From makes (even miserable piles of shit like ACE R were still miserable in their own interesting ways), but I do think it would lose something. I think people tend to do the Souls games a disservice by discussing their difficulty in a vacuum, the way one would describe God Hand or an old-school platformer: The difficulty, and the constant fear of death that it creates, are crucial to the atmosphere of tension that drives the games atmosphere and evokes elements of horror, an atmosphere which is in turn crucial to establishing a sense of the game's world and the story unfolding within it. A Dark Souls that isn't hard is like a Silent Hill with a dodge-roll and a fully functional combo system (which was still far from the worst SH game): Sure, it's playable and it can even be fun, but it's kind of missing the point.
I don't resent the existence of a difficulty option for people who want it, although I feel they won't be getting the full experience, but I would be disappointed to see the difficulty go down across the board.
Besides which, neither of the Souls Games is actually that hard. Sure, you'll get stomped into the ground if you try to play it like you would an action game, but the difference between these games and God Hand or Devil May Cry is that you don't have to do that. For every situation that appears to require a superlative feat of reflexes, there's a safe and simple way to get around it if you just stop for a minute and think outside the box. Most modern games don't demand that sort of patient and methodical play, and it has been my experience that most of the people who find it too difficult just aren't adjusting to that style of play. A lot of them probably wouldn't even enjoy playing like that, and that's fine. Most From titles are pretty niche for a reason. However, I'm not sure that lowering the difficulty will actually make the game any more enjoyable to those people. I imagine that if you sat someone down with a Dark Souls where you could just run through fighting all the enemies face to face without stopping to plan and look ahead and work out tricks that they would just end up missing the combat system of a game like Ninja Gaiden, which is much better suited to that style of play.
I don't resent the existence of a difficulty option for people who want it, although I feel they won't be getting the full experience, but I would be disappointed to see the difficulty go down across the board.
Besides which, neither of the Souls Games is actually that hard. Sure, you'll get stomped into the ground if you try to play it like you would an action game, but the difference between these games and God Hand or Devil May Cry is that you don't have to do that. For every situation that appears to require a superlative feat of reflexes, there's a safe and simple way to get around it if you just stop for a minute and think outside the box. Most modern games don't demand that sort of patient and methodical play, and it has been my experience that most of the people who find it too difficult just aren't adjusting to that style of play. A lot of them probably wouldn't even enjoy playing like that, and that's fine. Most From titles are pretty niche for a reason. However, I'm not sure that lowering the difficulty will actually make the game any more enjoyable to those people. I imagine that if you sat someone down with a Dark Souls where you could just run through fighting all the enemies face to face without stopping to plan and look ahead and work out tricks that they would just end up missing the combat system of a game like Ninja Gaiden, which is much better suited to that style of play.
Ya I heard this before, but I don't understand it what way exactly. What would change about your game if someone else who you will never have ingame contact with is playing a slightly easier version of the game?s69-5 said:
Ok, let me respond to your concluding statement.s69-5 said:
No, but you could still play hockey, you could even join a local team. Hockey is a game that can be played at local, state, national and even international levels. It allows a wide range of people to play what is exactly the same game with varying degrees of difficulty based on skill level.
It's not a great comparison if you were comparing it to Dark Souls or to a singular game difficulty... It's just the opposite, it works more for my argument where many players are able to experience the same game and get a similar feeling of accomplishment.
You also feel like Jim's Video was "out of his ken", I've never heard this term before. I take it to mean you think it was inaccurate, would you mind describing the parts you felt were wrong? Or did you feel it was bad as a whole video? I'd shudder to think of your criteria for a good video if you are seriously saying that video 62 was superior in any way...
I'm also confused. So you don't think any of my suggestions of easy mode types would count as easy mode types, you don't care if the story line and characters are made more obvious, stopping just short of quest markets. But you said that easy mode would require a complete restructure of the game in such a way that it would negatively effect hardcore players. (let me know if I pharaphrased you right). What exactly do you think easy mode would be?
my issue with daks souls' difficulty is that oftentimes it's not because you are playing wrong, or badly, but the game is often times designed to be soul crushingly,flat out cheap. Personal examples include:
1) Cruse frogs. Fuck those guys. I can take the insta kill from the fog, but requiring me to grind 6k souls just to restore myself? not fun. Add to that you lose 33% HP and can no longer summon helpers into your world until it's cured, and frustration goes through the roof.
2) Twin silver knight archers in Anor Londo when you're climbing up the butresses.
3) Bed of Chaos. Getting pushed straight into a hole as you try to open up the other side's orb is a nightmare. And its a bloody long run back.
4) Tying to parry anything, ever. Nano-second timing required, and it's just crushingly difficult to learn. And then you have to learn it for every weapon you will see from every enemy in the game you want to do it too.
5) multiplayer connectivity. Recently I have been (trying) to play with friends, but attempting to summon specific others into your world is oftentimes a nightmare. PLEASE PLEASE give us buddy lists and drop in drop out in the next one!
6) Hellkite dragon. Yusomean!
7) Invader twinks with maxxed out armor and lightning weapons. soooooo many players like this. I really wish the invasion cauculation for matchmaking was based on the players equipment invested soul level, rather than character level.
I'm sure there others have played through and never experienced these issues, and others still have had worse than what I just described. Difficulty is relative, but I think we can all agree. Dark souls is hard. I don't want an easier game; I just want less BS cheap game that doesn't give me a brain aneurysm.
When I die because i rolled into the fatty demon bosses fire attack, I blame myself. When I allow myself to get surrounded and get gang raped by mobs, I blame myself. When I get invaded and lose to a guy in nothing but his under pants, I blame myself. When I fall off the environment, I sometimes blame myself. Don't change this. Just get rid of those damn curse frogs!
1) Cruse frogs. Fuck those guys. I can take the insta kill from the fog, but requiring me to grind 6k souls just to restore myself? not fun. Add to that you lose 33% HP and can no longer summon helpers into your world until it's cured, and frustration goes through the roof.
2) Twin silver knight archers in Anor Londo when you're climbing up the butresses.
3) Bed of Chaos. Getting pushed straight into a hole as you try to open up the other side's orb is a nightmare. And its a bloody long run back.
4) Tying to parry anything, ever. Nano-second timing required, and it's just crushingly difficult to learn. And then you have to learn it for every weapon you will see from every enemy in the game you want to do it too.
5) multiplayer connectivity. Recently I have been (trying) to play with friends, but attempting to summon specific others into your world is oftentimes a nightmare. PLEASE PLEASE give us buddy lists and drop in drop out in the next one!
6) Hellkite dragon. Yusomean!
7) Invader twinks with maxxed out armor and lightning weapons. soooooo many players like this. I really wish the invasion cauculation for matchmaking was based on the players equipment invested soul level, rather than character level.
I'm sure there others have played through and never experienced these issues, and others still have had worse than what I just described. Difficulty is relative, but I think we can all agree. Dark souls is hard. I don't want an easier game; I just want less BS cheap game that doesn't give me a brain aneurysm.
When I die because i rolled into the fatty demon bosses fire attack, I blame myself. When I allow myself to get surrounded and get gang raped by mobs, I blame myself. When I get invaded and lose to a guy in nothing but his under pants, I blame myself. When I fall off the environment, I sometimes blame myself. Don't change this. Just get rid of those damn curse frogs!