Dark Souls 2: SotFS (or therefore, "Baa-baa Black Sheep" and other musings thread)

[Dalisclock]

Or maybe I have it all wrong and DS2 is exactly as they intended, and it will ultimately prove to be not for me, but I said the same thing about DS1 back in 2013; it wasn?t until 2016 when I tried it again in earnest and ended up loving it. I just find it sad that a sequel to a game I now love, one that shamelessly tries to imitate its predecessor, could seemingly fall so short.

Dark Souls 2, for what strengths and flaws(and it has plenty of both) it has, is a mess. Whatever was planned when the game was first started went out the window when the original director was booted from the project and a new one replaced him halfway through development. Miyazaki was making Bloodborne at the time(which was his real passion) and presumably was keeping an eye on things but I suspect it was a very generalized supervision if anything(Is the Dark Souls 2 office on fire? No, Good.) I suspect that goes a long way to explain why the world design feels both inconsistent(Going up an elevator from a Windmill and ending up in a Lava Field) and occasionally phoned in. It would also explain the Copy-Paste feeling of the bosses(Two Dragonriders? No, that doesn't feel like you guys ran of out time/ideas).

For what it's worth, The DLC areas feel much, much more polished.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Or maybe I have it all wrong and DS2 is exactly as they intended, and it will ultimately prove to be not for me, but I said the same thing about DS1 back in 2013; it wasn?t until 2016 when I tried it again in earnest and ended up loving it. I just find it sad that a sequel to a game I now love, one that shamelessly tries to imitate its predecessor, could seemingly fall so short.

Dark Souls 2, for what strengths and flaws(and it has plenty of both) it has, is a mess. Whatever was planned when the game was first started went out the window when the original director was booted from the project and a new one replaced him halfway through development. Miyazaki was making Bloodborne at the time(which was his real passion) and presumably was keeping an eye on things but I suspect it was a very generalized supervision if anything(Is the Dark Souls 2 office on fire? No, Good.) I suspect that goes a long way to explain why the world design feels both inconsistent(Going up an elevator from a Windmill and ending up in a Lava Field) and occasionally phoned in. It would also explain the Copy-Paste feeling of the bosses(Two Dragonriders? No, that doesn't feel like you guys ran of out time/ideas).

For what it's worth, The DLC areas feel much, much more polished.

At the end of the day these are games, and I try not to think into them too much as futile as it may be. Or, toss a few grains of salt on all the "wtf's" and force out a good chuckle. Or, if my curiosity and thirst for logic and reason still hasn't been satiated, I'll turn to google in hopes of finding something like this [https://fextralife.com/iron-keep-a-castle-in-the-right-spot/] which might put my mind at relative ease.

Having said that, I really enjoyed the game once I was committed - to acknowledging that is - that it wasn't a continuation of Miyazaki's vision and accepted it for what it was; a brilliant clusterf*ck of interactive entertainment.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Sure, but the game literally tells you will do things without knowing why. The opening cutscene says it. The Emerald Herald says it.

I get the overall gist of the tale and what I?m ultimately trying to accomplish, I just mean none of my actions seem to have a point, none of the stuff I?ve collected seems to be useful, there hasn?t been a reason for any of my specific actions. In DS1, I fought the Bell Gargoyles to ring the first bell; I bested Sen?s Fortress to get to Anor Londo; I killed O&S to get the Lord Vessel, etc. In DS2? I killed the Lost Sinner because he just happened to be at the end of the long corridor I just happened to be wandering down at the moment; I didn?t even realize he WAS one of the ?great? souls I?m supposedly looking for because it was such a non-event; it was just a thing that happened.

Dark Souls 2, for what strengths and flaws(and it has plenty of both) it has, is a mess. Whatever was planned when the game was first started went out the window when the original director was booted from the project and a new one replaced him halfway through development. Miyazaki was making Bloodborne at the time(which was his real passion) and presumably was keeping an eye on things but I suspect it was a very generalized supervision if anything(Is the Dark Souls 2 office on fire? No, Good.) I suspect that goes a long way to explain why the world design feels both inconsistent(Going up an elevator from a Windmill and ending up in a Lava Field) and occasionally phoned in. It would also explain the Copy-Paste feeling of the bosses(Two Dragonriders? No, that doesn't feel like you guys ran of out time/ideas).

For what it's worth, The DLC areas feel much, much more polished.

Le sigh, that?s sad, but makes sense. Unfortunately, I don?t have the DLC, and honestly, I?m not much interested in getting it. My plan is to pretty much lower my expectations, finish this game once, and likely never play it again. I?ve no interest in doing another build or NG+ right now; should the stars align and something finally clicks (other than my tongue when I walk through my 143rd fog door and am greet with another re-skinned gank boss,) maybe I can start enjoying the game enough to change my mind.

At the end of the day these are games, and I try not to think into them too much as futile as it may be. Or, toss a few grains of salt on all the "wtf's" and force out a good chuckle. Or, if my curiosity and thirst for logic and reason still hasn't been satiated, I'll turn to google in hopes of finding something like this [https://fextralife.com/iron-keep-a-castle-in-the-right-spot/] which might put my mind at relative ease.

Having said that, I really enjoyed the game once I was committed - to acknowledging that is - that it wasn't a continuation of Miyazaki's vision and accepted it for what it was; a brilliant clusterf*ck of interactive entertainment.

Lol, so Dark Souls 2 is like Minecraft? A large ?do as you please? world where you just rummage around, fight some zombies, experience some cheap deaths and inevitably lose all your shit.

Yeah, I get it?s just a game, and I?m not overthinking it, just holding it to the standard set in my mind by its predecessor. My play time is extremely limited; I prefer to use it to progress, get somewhere, accomplish something, find something useful, etc. So when a game is essentially leading me in circles, filling my inventory with onesie-twosie consumables I don?t need, lading me down with mediocre equipment that?s most times WORSE than what I?ve been using for 15 hours, frustrating me with an overabundance of unimaginative bosses and all without a clear goal outside of enigmatic hyperbole about endgame events, it doesn?t earn many points with me.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

Does anybody know how to parry in this game??
I just came off of a no-shield run in Dark Souls 1 and am starting a no-shield run in Dark Souls 2 and I cannot figure out the timing for the life of me

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Sure, but the game literally tells you will do things without knowing why. The opening cutscene says it. The Emerald Herald says it.

I get the overall gist of the tale and what I?m ultimately trying to accomplish, I just mean none of my actions seem to have a point, none of the stuff I?ve collected seems to be useful, there hasn?t been a reason for any of my specific actions. In DS1, I fought the Bell Gargoyles to ring the first bell; I bested Sen?s Fortress to get to Anor Londo; I killed O&S to get the Lord Vessel, etc. In DS2? I killed the Lost Sinner because he just happened to be at the end of the long corridor I just happened to be wandering down at the moment; I didn?t even realize he WAS one of the ?great? souls I?m supposedly looking for because it was such a non-event; it was just a thing that happened.

Dark Souls 2, for what strengths and flaws(and it has plenty of both) it has, is a mess. Whatever was planned when the game was first started went out the window when the original director was booted from the project and a new one replaced him halfway through development. Miyazaki was making Bloodborne at the time(which was his real passion) and presumably was keeping an eye on things but I suspect it was a very generalized supervision if anything(Is the Dark Souls 2 office on fire? No, Good.) I suspect that goes a long way to explain why the world design feels both inconsistent(Going up an elevator from a Windmill and ending up in a Lava Field) and occasionally phoned in. It would also explain the Copy-Paste feeling of the bosses(Two Dragonriders? No, that doesn't feel like you guys ran of out time/ideas).

For what it's worth, The DLC areas feel much, much more polished.

Le sigh, that?s sad, but makes sense. Unfortunately, I don?t have the DLC, and honestly, I?m not much interested in getting it. My plan is to pretty much lower my expectations, finish this game once, and likely never play it again. I?ve no interest in doing another build or NG+ right now; should the stars align and something finally clicks (other than my tongue when I walk through my 143rd fog door and am greet with another re-skinned gank boss,) maybe I can start enjoying the game enough to change my mind.

At the end of the day these are games, and I try not to think into them too much as futile as it may be. Or, toss a few grains of salt on all the "wtf's" and force out a good chuckle. Or, if my curiosity and thirst for logic and reason still hasn't been satiated, I'll turn to google in hopes of finding something like this [https://fextralife.com/iron-keep-a-castle-in-the-right-spot/] which might put my mind at relative ease.

Having said that, I really enjoyed the game once I was committed - to acknowledging that is - that it wasn't a continuation of Miyazaki's vision and accepted it for what it was; a brilliant clusterf*ck of interactive entertainment.

Lol, so Dark Souls 2 is like Minecraft? A large ?do as you please? world where you just rummage around, fight some zombies, experience some cheap deaths and inevitably lose all your shit.

Yeah, I get it?s just a game, and I?m not overthinking it, just holding it to the standard set in my mind by its predecessor. My play time is extremely limited; I prefer to use it to progress, get somewhere, accomplish something, find something useful, etc. So when a game is essentially leading me in circles, filling my inventory with onesie-twosie consumables I don?t need, lading me down with mediocre equipment that?s most times WORSE than what I?ve been using for 15 hours, frustrating me with an overabundance of unimaginative bosses and all without a clear goal outside of enigmatic hyperbole about endgame events, it doesn?t earn many points with me.

If your title screen said, "Scholar of the First Sin" then you do have it, unless you just downloaded an update from the vanilla version which doesn't include the DLC. You would have to actually buy the re-release to get that on the older consoles, but in that case it pays to just get it on the newer consoles/PC because they include the full suite of changes.

Anyways, what I meant was facetiously that the game had its well known share of issues involving logic, continuity, etc., at least according to most fans. But best not to let it spoil your personal take on the game. I went in with as fresh a perspective as possible after initially being hampered with consternation and trepidation over what I've heard, and it helped me through a lot of the early learning curve.

Its size is more intimidating than anything. Once I got a feel for the differences I ripped through the whole game sooner than I had for Demon's Souls and Dark Souls combined. I took months long breaks at a time with those due to the intimidation factor, but not DS2. Once I got through Heides Tower and past the dragon I didn't really look back. Perhaps it was due to the fact there was so much to it that the progression seemed to hinge more on discovery vs actual difficulty with anything; at least until some of the DLC.

These games shouldn't really cause as much torment as they seem to be for you, unless you're also just being facetious (mostly?). With some patience, planning and persistence, even the black sheep known as DS2 can be incredibly rewarding, so I'd persevere as long as your wits can bear it. You may be surprised at how clever and innovative some of the later stuff in the game can be.

 

[Terminal Blue]

At the end of the day these are games, and I try not to think into them too much as futile as it may be. Or, toss a few grains of salt on all the "wtf's" and force out a good chuckle. Or, if my curiosity and thirst for logic and reason still hasn't been satiated, I'll turn to google in hopes of finding something like this [https://fextralife.com/iron-keep-a-castle-in-the-right-spot/] which might put my mind at relative ease.

I'm actually very interested in this kind of growing revisionist sentiment towards DS2's level design, because I think intentional or not it does have an interesting effect. I described the game as having a dreamlike quality earlier, and I stand by that. Dranglaic, unlike Lordran, doesn't really feel like a real place, and I think while it's easy to understand the backlash to that there's a value in it, accidental or not.

I mean, did you notice that Bloodborne's old hunters DLC actually did the same thing? You climb up a clocktower, walk out and suddenly you're in the fishing hamlet. If this was a real, contiguous space, the research hall and the hunters nightmare would be underwater, but we know it isn't real space. Noone complained about this because they understood immediately that they were in a place where physical laws didn't always apply. The problem with the Earthen peak elevator isn't that it doesn't make sense, it's that it doesn't make so little sense that the player cottons on immediately that it isn't supposed to.

 

[Dalisclock]

At the end of the day these are games, and I try not to think into them too much as futile as it may be. Or, toss a few grains of salt on all the "wtf's" and force out a good chuckle. Or, if my curiosity and thirst for logic and reason still hasn't been satiated, I'll turn to google in hopes of finding something like this [https://fextralife.com/iron-keep-a-castle-in-the-right-spot/] which might put my mind at relative ease.

I'm actually very interested in this kind of growing revisionist sentiment towards DS2's level design, because I think intentional or not it does have an interesting effect. I described the game as having a dreamlike quality earlier, and I stand by that. Dranglaic, unlike Lordran, doesn't really feel like a real place, and I think while it's easy to understand the backlash to that there's a value in it, accidental or not.

I mean, did you notice that Bloodborne's old hunters DLC actually did the same thing? You climb up a clocktower, walk out and suddenly you're in the fishing hamlet. If this was a real, contiguous space, the research hall and the hunters nightmare would be underwater, but we know it isn't real space. Noone complained about this because they understood immediately that they were in a place where physical laws didn't always apply. The problem with the Earthen peak elevator isn't that it doesn't make sense, it's that it doesn't make so little sense that the player cottons on immediately that it isn't supposed to.

Ironic you should say that because in BB if you look into the water at the start of the fishing village you can actually see Yarnham below the surface. You can also see the wrecks ships from the finishing village from the Nightmare Frontier if you look in the right place.

I've read that article before and while I really don't think it was intentional(It feels more like they ran out of time and started stitching the working parts together), you're right it does create a weird dreamlike quality. It is worth mentioning that Drangleic is a place you entered by throwing yourself into a magical whirlpool because a creepy old lady told you to.

And then there's the weird theory that Drangleic is lordran but centuries or millennia down the road(depending on how many cycles), which is supported by a few rather vague points(supposedly the lost Bastille is the undead asylum from DS1, despite being out in the ocean and looking nothing like it) and completely falls apart when you realize that none of the geography matches up.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Ok, this shite game is starting to grow on me a bit. It opened up quite a bit after I beat the Prowling Magus and Congregation and farmed enough Large Titanite Shards to finally upgrade my Heide Knight Sword and Fire Longsword so I stopped feeling like an underpowered peon. Managed through the Gutter and Black Gulch where I stumbled upon yet another Great Soul when I beat the Rotten on my second attempt. Like the Lost Sinner, I had no idea he was a ?goal,? but I gave up trying to make sense of everything and actually am able to appreciate the game as a stand-alone, challenging waste of time rather than the mediocre sequel in a stellar trilogy that it is; I just pick a path a take it to whatever end it has for me grabbing all the shit it has lying around along the way

I DID finally find a second Aromatic Limb of Bygone Days; can anyone tell me where best to use it? I?ve got a ton of boss souls, and the wiki tells me I need to either free Ornifex (sp?) or the guy in the Lost Bastille to get boss weapons, but BOTH require a Perfumed Stick of Yesterday. Who?s the better deal or does it even matter?

And still can?t find the Dull Ember; I think my copy of the game shipped without it?

 

[Avnger]

I DID finally find a second Aromatic Limb of Bygone Days; can anyone tell me where best to use it? I?ve got a ton of boss souls, and the wiki tells me I need to either free Ornifex (sp?) or the guy in the Lost Bastille to get boss weapons, but BOTH require a Perfumed Stick of Yesterday. Who?s the better deal or does it even matter?

In Scholar of the First Sin, there is a Fragrant Branch of Yore in the same room that Ornifex is trapped in, so using one to get the Fang key to unlock that door is essentially neutral resource-wise.

And still can?t find the Dull Ember; I think my copy of the game shipped without it?

Spoiler

SOTFS: If you've killed the pursuer, use the bird nest past his arena to be taken to the Lost Tower bonfire that has 2 chests; one contains the ember.

Normal: The first large lava-containing room you find after entering the Iron Keep. You'll want to check the wiki or something to work your way to its exact location.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I DID finally find a second Aromatic Limb of Bygone Days; can anyone tell me where best to use it? I?ve got a ton of boss souls, and the wiki tells me I need to either free Ornifex (sp?) or the guy in the Lost Bastille to get boss weapons, but BOTH require a Perfumed Stick of Yesterday. Who?s the better deal or does it even matter?

In Scholar of the First Sin, there is a Fragrant Branch of Yore in the same room that Ornifex is trapped in, so using one to get the Fang key to unlock that door is essentially neutral resource-wise.

And still can?t find the Dull Ember; I think my copy of the game shipped without it?

Spoiler

SOTFS: If you've killed the pursuer, use the bird nest past his arena to be taken to the Lost Tower bonfire that has 2 chests; one contains the ember.

Normal: The first large lava-containing room you find after entering the Iron Keep. You'll want to check the wiki or something to work your way to its exact location.

If you can, help me clarify something (interwebz searches are yielding some ambiguous results,) I?m apparently playing the SotFS since my title screen says so, but on the Xbox 360, not the current gen. My inquires lead me to believe the major differences between the vanilla game and the SotFS don?t exist on last gen copies of the game, only on current gen. So when using the wikis, I should disregard and SotFS guides and just use the vanilla guides? If so, what exactly is the difference between vanilla and SotFS that I?m playing?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

At the end of the day these are games, and I try not to think into them too much as futile as it may be. Or, toss a few grains of salt on all the "wtf's" and force out a good chuckle. Or, if my curiosity and thirst for logic and reason still hasn't been satiated, I'll turn to google in hopes of finding something like this [https://fextralife.com/iron-keep-a-castle-in-the-right-spot/] which might put my mind at relative ease.

I'm actually very interested in this kind of growing revisionist sentiment towards DS2's level design, because I think intentional or not it does have an interesting effect. I described the game as having a dreamlike quality earlier, and I stand by that. Dranglaic, unlike Lordran, doesn't really feel like a real place, and I think while it's easy to understand the backlash to that there's a value in it, accidental or not.

I mean, did you notice that Bloodborne's old hunters DLC actually did the same thing? You climb up a clocktower, walk out and suddenly you're in the fishing hamlet. If this was a real, contiguous space, the research hall and the hunters nightmare would be underwater, but we know it isn't real space. Noone complained about this because they understood immediately that they were in a place where physical laws didn't always apply. The problem with the Earthen peak elevator isn't that it doesn't make sense, it's that it doesn't make so little sense that the player cottons on immediately that it isn't supposed to.

Ironic you should say that because in BB if you look into the water at the start of the fishing village you can actually see Yarnham below the surface. You can also see the wrecks ships from the finishing village from the Nightmare Frontier if you look in the right place.

I've read that article before and while I really don't think it was intentional(It feels more like they ran out of time and started stitching the working parts together), you're right it does create a weird dreamlike quality. It is worth mentioning that Drangleic is a place you entered by throwing yourself into a magical whirlpool because a creepy old lady told you to.

And then there's the weird theory that Drangleic is lordran but centuries or millennia down the road(depending on how many cycles), which is supported by a few rather vague points(supposedly the lost Bastille is the undead asylum from DS1, despite being out in the ocean and looking nothing like it) and completely falls apart when you realize that none of the geography matches up.

To me I always felt like Drangleic in Dark Souls 2 is supposed to be a whole kingdom, and every area transition is actually you walking for days to reach the next area. That's why some of the transitions don't really make sense, because they aren't actually back to back but are supposed to be days apart. Your character is starting to succumb to the undead curse, their memory is lapsing, they're forgetting how they got to the next area and how much time it took.

See, as cool as the world of Dark Souls 1 is with all of its inter-connectivity, it's never really made sense to me. You're telling me that all of Lordran is roughly 2 square miles? The entirety of the history of this world took place in areas separated by 800 meters of straight running? Izalith was abandoned because of a demon infestation and they decided to build the Undead Burg 100 feet away? The scale is just too small. You learn the world very intimately, and I appreciated that, but at the same time it makes the world feel tiny.

For all of its problems at least the world of Dark Souls 2 feels much bigger. It feels like you're traversing a country rather than just running over the same spots over and over.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I DID finally find a second Aromatic Limb of Bygone Days; can anyone tell me where best to use it? I?ve got a ton of boss souls, and the wiki tells me I need to either free Ornifex (sp?) or the guy in the Lost Bastille to get boss weapons, but BOTH require a Perfumed Stick of Yesterday. Who?s the better deal or does it even matter?

In Scholar of the First Sin, there is a Fragrant Branch of Yore in the same room that Ornifex is trapped in, so using one to get the Fang key to unlock that door is essentially neutral resource-wise.

And still can?t find the Dull Ember; I think my copy of the game shipped without it?

Spoiler

SOTFS: If you've killed the pursuer, use the bird nest past his arena to be taken to the Lost Tower bonfire that has 2 chests; one contains the ember.

Normal: The first large lava-containing room you find after entering the Iron Keep. You'll want to check the wiki or something to work your way to its exact location.

If you can, help me clarify something (interwebz searches are yielding some ambiguous results,) I?m apparently playing the SotFS since my title screen says so, but on the Xbox 360, not the current gen. My inquires lead me to believe the major differences between the vanilla game and the SotFS don?t exist on last gen copies of the game, only on current gen. So when using the wikis, I should disregard and SotFS guides and just use the vanilla guides? If so, what exactly is the difference between vanilla and SotFS that I?m playing?

IIRC only the current gen versions changed up item/enemy locations, and the old consoles/DX9 PC version simply had the additional DLC content tacked on. Best way to test would be to just use the old guide and if stuff is where it says, you're A-OK.

Also, if you got through the Gulch and The Rotten without much trouble, consider your DS2 mettle tested; at least until the DLC. But even then, it's completely manageable and has some of the best content of the series, let alone game.

 

[Avnger]

I DID finally find a second Aromatic Limb of Bygone Days; can anyone tell me where best to use it? I?ve got a ton of boss souls, and the wiki tells me I need to either free Ornifex (sp?) or the guy in the Lost Bastille to get boss weapons, but BOTH require a Perfumed Stick of Yesterday. Who?s the better deal or does it even matter?

In Scholar of the First Sin, there is a Fragrant Branch of Yore in the same room that Ornifex is trapped in, so using one to get the Fang key to unlock that door is essentially neutral resource-wise.

And still can?t find the Dull Ember; I think my copy of the game shipped without it?

Spoiler

SOTFS: If you've killed the pursuer, use the bird nest past his arena to be taken to the Lost Tower bonfire that has 2 chests; one contains the ember.

Normal: The first large lava-containing room you find after entering the Iron Keep. You'll want to check the wiki or something to work your way to its exact location.

If you can, help me clarify something (interwebz searches are yielding some ambiguous results,) I?m apparently playing the SotFS since my title screen says so, but on the Xbox 360, not the current gen. My inquires lead me to believe the major differences between the vanilla game and the SotFS don?t exist on last gen copies of the game, only on current gen. So when using the wikis, I should disregard and SotFS guides and just use the vanilla guides? If so, what exactly is the difference between vanilla and SotFS that I?m playing?

As @hanselthecaretaker said, I'm pretty sure the 360/PS3/DX9 version of SOTFS is essentially the "game of the year" edition of DS2 w/DLC instead of the revamped version. Actually, a quick and easy way to tell: in the Heide's Tower of Flame area, were there any Heide Knight enemies?

If yes, you're playing the revamped version. If not, you're playing the unchanged version and should disregard any SOTFS walkthroughs/wiki entries.

 

[Xprimentyl]

To me I always felt like Drangleic in Dark Souls 2 is supposed to be a whole kingdom, and every area transition is actually you walking for days to reach the next area. That's why some of the transitions don't really make sense, because they aren't actually back to back but are supposed to be days apart. Your character is starting to succumb to the undead curse, their memory is lapsing, they're forgetting how they got to the next area and how much time it took.

See, as cool as the world of Dark Souls 1 is with all of its inter-connectivity, it's never really made sense to me. You're telling me that all of Lordran is roughly 2 square miles? The entirety of the history of this world took place in areas separated by 800 meters of straight running? Izalith was abandoned because of a demon infestation and they decided to build the Undead Burg 100 feet away? The scale is just too small. You learn the world very intimately, and I appreciated that, but at the same time it makes the world feel tiny.

For all of its problems at least the world of Dark Souls 2 feels much bigger. It feels like you're traversing a country rather than just running over the same spots over and over.

Lol, that?s honestly a point you can make about most open world games. I can drive from south Liberty City to north Liberty City in about 6 minutes real time; I?ve a sneaking suspicion a similar trip in the real New York City after which Liberty City is modeled might take just a tad longer. Or Oblivion or Skyrim: you mean to tell me there?re ancient ruins scattered throughout the land, each filled with powerful, arcane weapons, items and creatures, each within a five minute walk of nearly every modern city in Cyrodiil, and still undiscovered, huh? Genuine scale is something hard to pull off in video games. Considering they?re about interactivity, it really wouldn?t behoove devs to take what constitutes reasonable content (say the entirety of Dark Souls 1?s non-topographical content) and stretch it out across a land the size the epic tale truly merits; it?d be a lot of empty space and/or busy work (i.e.: how long did it take for that walk from the first Anor Londo bonfire to The Archers to get old?) That being said DS2 finally does feel quite a bit bigger than DS1, bigger if incoherent: I kill a scorpion lady who leads me to a dwarven ruin which opens up to encampment with undead farmers and pigs which leads to a spider hole and the boss is a dark priest and re-animated corpses?. Yeeeah, mind if I see those cliffnotes? But I?m beginning to appreciate that disjointedness; didn?t think I would, but I am. Now that the game has opened up, I?m just picking one of several new bonfires I?ve discovered and *shrug* see where they go!

IIRC only the current gen versions changed up item/enemy locations, and the old consoles/DX9 PC version simply had the additional DLC content tacked on. Best way to test would be to just use the old guide and if stuff is where it says, you're A-OK.

Also, b[]if you got through the Gulch and The Rotten without much trouble, consider your DS2 mettle tested;[/b] at least until the DLC. But even then, it's completely manageable and has some of the best content of the series, let alone game.

That?s encouraging to hear. I?d avoided the Gutter/Gulch because I?d heard it was a pain (not a fan of areas that hang their identity on inflicting status ailments,) but it was surprisingly easy, easier than the Shaded Woods which I stil have problems in. I just stayed at the edges and took out each of those spitting statue things; once they were down, there really wasn?t a threat left. And The Rotten got me once because of course a boss that big who hangs his hat on melee is going to have a grab attack; once I knew that, it was just a dance.

But as the rest of the game is growing on me, the combat is still a sticking point for me. I got my Adaptability (still a dick-move stat IMHO) up to 20, and haven?t noticed much of a difference; combat is just punishing. It?s damn-near impossible to land more than one hit without the enemy connecting a counter-attack; the player?s hit box is fucking HUGE and every other enemy has unreasonable reach, lightning-fast reflexes, and oh yeah, here?s four of them at once. The dog thingies in the Gutter? I don?t think I killed a single one without taking damage myself as they answered every attack with that bite attack that only requires that I be in the same area code to register damage. I almost suspect the game is reading my inputs in some cases, like my pressing my attack button is essentially pressing the attack button for enemy I?m attacking. Also, the damage enemies deal seems arbitrary; the lion warriors in the Shaded Ruins? Sometimes, their axes take half my health, then other times, the same attack takes damn near ALL my health. And nothing drives me further up a wall than being knocked down or staggered, which is every gank fest. Just saying, the finesse hasn?t found me yet; it?s mostly frustration and luck. The combat steps on its own feet; yes, my weapons have a 2-3 hit combo, but the risk is so rarely worth the reward: swing once, roll away, take damage while doing so, flask/lifegem up, rinse and repeat

As @hanselthecaretaker said, I'm pretty sure the 360/PS3/DX9 version of SOTFS is essentially the "game of the year" edition of DS2 w/DLC instead of the revamped version. Actually, a quick and easy way to tell: in the Heide's Tower of Flame area, were there any Heide Knight enemies?

If yes, you're playing the revamped version. If not, you're playing the unchanged version and should disregard any SOTFS walkthroughs/wiki entries.

Nope, no Heide Knights in Heide?s Tower area, so it sounds like you and hanselthecaretaker are correct; I?m playing the vanilla DS2 with the SotFS DLC tacked on. Thanks for clarifying; should help the wiki?s be a lot more useful.

So, I finally freed Ornifex AND Straid, so I?ve got access to boss weapons. So far, I?ve killed:

The Last Giant
The Pursuer
The Dragonrider
The Dragonslayer
Flexile Sentry
Ruin Sentinels
Lost Sinner
Scorpioness Najka
Royal Rat Vanguard
The Rotten

My build is STR/DEX (40/18 respectively which boss weapon of those souls listed would suit me best?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Spoiler

To me I always felt like Drangleic in Dark Souls 2 is supposed to be a whole kingdom, and every area transition is actually you walking for days to reach the next area. That's why some of the transitions don't really make sense, because they aren't actually back to back but are supposed to be days apart. Your character is starting to succumb to the undead curse, their memory is lapsing, they're forgetting how they got to the next area and how much time it took.

See, as cool as the world of Dark Souls 1 is with all of its inter-connectivity, it's never really made sense to me. You're telling me that all of Lordran is roughly 2 square miles? The entirety of the history of this world took place in areas separated by 800 meters of straight running? Izalith was abandoned because of a demon infestation and they decided to build the Undead Burg 100 feet away? The scale is just too small. You learn the world very intimately, and I appreciated that, but at the same time it makes the world feel tiny.

For all of its problems at least the world of Dark Souls 2 feels much bigger. It feels like you're traversing a country rather than just running over the same spots over and over.

Lol, that?s honestly a point you can make about most open world games. I can drive from south Liberty City to north Liberty City in about 6 minutes real time; I?ve a sneaking suspicion a similar trip in the real New York City after which Liberty City is modeled might take just a tad longer. Or Oblivion or Skyrim: you mean to tell me there?re ancient ruins scattered throughout the land, each filled with powerful, arcane weapons, items and creatures, each within a five minute walk of nearly every modern city in Cyrodiil, and still undiscovered, huh? Genuine scale is something hard to pull off in video games. Considering they?re about interactivity, it really wouldn?t behoove devs to take what constitutes reasonable content (say the entirety of Dark Souls 1?s non-topographical content) and stretch it out across a land the size the epic tale truly merits; it?d be a lot of empty space and/or busy work (i.e.: how long did it take for that walk from the first Anor Londo bonfire to The Archers to get old?) That being said DS2 finally does feel quite a bit bigger than DS1, bigger if incoherent: I kill a scorpion lady who leads me to a dwarven ruin which opens up to encampment with undead farmers and pigs which leads to a spider hole and the boss is a dark priest and re-animated corpses?. Yeeeah, mind if I see those cliffnotes? But I?m beginning to appreciate that disjointedness; didn?t think I would, but I am. Now that the game has opened up, I?m just picking one of several new bonfires I?ve discovered and *shrug* see where they go!

IIRC only the current gen versions changed up item/enemy locations, and the old consoles/DX9 PC version simply had the additional DLC content tacked on. Best way to test would be to just use the old guide and if stuff is where it says, you're A-OK.

Also, b[]if you got through the Gulch and The Rotten without much trouble, consider your DS2 mettle tested;[/b] at least until the DLC. But even then, it's completely manageable and has some of the best content of the series, let alone game.

That?s encouraging to hear. I?d avoided the Gutter/Gulch because I?d heard it was a pain (not a fan of areas that hang their identity on inflicting status ailments,) but it was surprisingly easy, easier than the Shaded Woods which I stil have problems in. I just stayed at the edges and took out each of those spitting statue things; once they were down, there really wasn?t a threat left. And The Rotten got me once because of course a boss that big who hangs his hat on melee is going to have a grab attack; once I knew that, it was just a dance.

But as the rest of the game is growing on me, the combat is still a sticking point for me. I got my Adaptability (still a dick-move stat IMHO) up to 20, and haven?t noticed much of a difference; combat is just punishing. It?s damn-near impossible to land more than one hit without the enemy connecting a counter-attack; the player?s hit box is fucking HUGE and every other enemy has unreasonable reach, lightning-fast reflexes, and oh yeah, here?s four of them at once. The dog thingies in the Gutter? I don?t think I killed a single one without taking damage myself as they answered every attack with that bite attack that only requires that I be in the same area code to register damage. I almost suspect the game is reading my inputs in some cases, like my pressing my attack button is essentially pressing the attack button for enemy I?m attacking. Also, the damage enemies deal seems arbitrary; the lion warriors in the Shaded Ruins? Sometimes, their axes take half my health, then other times, the same attack takes damn near ALL my health. And nothing drives me further up a wall than being knocked down or staggered, which is every gank fest. Just saying, the finesse hasn?t found me yet; it?s mostly frustration and luck. The combat steps on its own feet; yes, my weapons have a 2-3 hit combo, but the risk is so rarely worth the reward: swing once, roll away, take damage while doing so, flask/lifegem up, rinse and repeat

As @hanselthecaretaker said, I'm pretty sure the 360/PS3/DX9 version of SOTFS is essentially the "game of the year" edition of DS2 w/DLC instead of the revamped version. Actually, a quick and easy way to tell: in the Heide's Tower of Flame area, were there any Heide Knight enemies?

If yes, you're playing the revamped version. If not, you're playing the unchanged version and should disregard any SOTFS walkthroughs/wiki entries.

Nope, no Heide Knights in Heide?s Tower area, so it sounds like you and hanselthecaretaker are correct; I?m playing the vanilla DS2 with the SotFS DLC tacked on. Thanks for clarifying; should help the wiki?s be a lot more useful.

So, I finally freed Ornifex AND Straid, so I?ve got access to boss weapons. So far, I?ve killed:

The Last Giant
The Pursuer
The Dragonrider
The Dragonslayer
Flexile Sentry
Ruin Sentinels
Lost Sinner
Scorpioness Najka
Royal Rat Vanguard
The Rotten

My build is STR/DEX (40/18 respectively which boss weapon of those souls listed would suit me best?

Ha, I could probably count on one hand my deaths in Shaded Woods including bosses and accidental, yet at least 2-3 dozen in Black Gulch and The Rotten together, really trying. That?s a Souls game for ya!

As for weapons, I was primarily strength as well and really took a mid-late game liking to the Drangleic sword, with the Red Iron Twinblade (loved it, especially with a Greatsword in the other hand after a stagger) for most of the DLC and Pursuer?s Ultra Greatsword for some tougher bosses. Then again, I beat Vendrick first try with Greatsword of the Forlorn after struggling with my other ones perhaps a dozen attempts. I was fully hollow though, which maxes it out and has a nice bleed bonus, even though it didn?t matter against him. I think I also had a fire-infused scythe and dabbled with the Fume Knight UGS for a while near the very end for the hell of it. All great stuff.

 

[Avnger]

As @hanselthecaretaker said, I'm pretty sure the 360/PS3/DX9 version of SOTFS is essentially the "game of the year" edition of DS2 w/DLC instead of the revamped version. Actually, a quick and easy way to tell: in the Heide's Tower of Flame area, were there any Heide Knight enemies?

If yes, you're playing the revamped version. If not, you're playing the unchanged version and should disregard any SOTFS walkthroughs/wiki entries.

Nope, no Heide Knights in Heide?s Tower area, so it sounds like you and hanselthecaretaker are correct; I?m playing the vanilla DS2 with the SotFS DLC tacked on. Thanks for clarifying; should help the wiki?s be a lot more useful.

So, I finally freed Ornifex AND Straid, so I?ve got access to boss weapons. So far, I?ve killed:

The Last Giant
The Pursuer
The Dragonrider
The Dragonslayer
Flexile Sentry
Ruin Sentinels
Lost Sinner
Scorpioness Najka
Royal Rat Vanguard
The Rotten

My build is STR/DEX (40/18 respectively which boss weapon of those souls listed would suit me best?

Unfortunately, I generally play Dex builds, so I can't help you out much here. The Pursuer's Ultra Greatsword always seemed interesting, but the wiki is kind of mum about how good it is.

 

[ChupathingyX]

So, I finally freed Ornifex AND Straid, so I?ve got access to boss weapons. So far, I?ve killed:

The Last Giant
The Pursuer
The Dragonrider
The Dragonslayer
Flexile Sentry
Ruin Sentinels
Lost Sinner
Scorpioness Najka
Royal Rat Vanguard
The Rotten

My build is STR/DEX (40/18 respectively which boss weapon of those souls listed would suit me best?

The Dragonrider's bow and shield are both very good choices that can carry you through the game, and the Rotten's Butcher's Knife is pretty good (though it's been a while since I've ever used it). I had a lot of fun with the Lost Sinner's sword personally but it's rather gimmicky.
Also I'm sure people have told you this but don't get rid of any boss souls with weapons you can't use because you can later start playing around with soul vessels to respec your character and use anything you want.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

To me I always felt like Drangleic in Dark Souls 2 is supposed to be a whole kingdom, and every area transition is actually you walking for days to reach the next area. That's why some of the transitions don't really make sense, because they aren't actually back to back but are supposed to be days apart. Your character is starting to succumb to the undead curse, their memory is lapsing, they're forgetting how they got to the next area and how much time it took.

See, as cool as the world of Dark Souls 1 is with all of its inter-connectivity, it's never really made sense to me. You're telling me that all of Lordran is roughly 2 square miles? The entirety of the history of this world took place in areas separated by 800 meters of straight running? Izalith was abandoned because of a demon infestation and they decided to build the Undead Burg 100 feet away? The scale is just too small. You learn the world very intimately, and I appreciated that, but at the same time it makes the world feel tiny.

For all of its problems at least the world of Dark Souls 2 feels much bigger. It feels like you're traversing a country rather than just running over the same spots over and over.

Lol, that?s honestly a point you can make about most open world games. I can drive from south Liberty City to north Liberty City in about 6 minutes real time; I?ve a sneaking suspicion a similar trip in the real New York City after which Liberty City is modeled might take just a tad longer. Or Oblivion or Skyrim: you mean to tell me there?re ancient ruins scattered throughout the land, each filled with powerful, arcane weapons, items and creatures, each within a five minute walk of nearly every modern city in Cyrodiil, and still undiscovered, huh? Genuine scale is something hard to pull off in video games. Considering they?re about interactivity, it really wouldn?t behoove devs to take what constitutes reasonable content (say the entirety of Dark Souls 1?s non-topographical content) and stretch it out across a land the size the epic tale truly merits; it?d be a lot of empty space and/or busy work (i.e.: how long did it take for that walk from the first Anor Londo bonfire to The Archers to get old?) That being said DS2 finally does feel quite a bit bigger than DS1, bigger if incoherent: I kill a scorpion lady who leads me to a dwarven ruin which opens up to encampment with undead farmers and pigs which leads to a spider hole and the boss is a dark priest and re-animated corpses?. Yeeeah, mind if I see those cliffnotes? But I?m beginning to appreciate that disjointedness; didn?t think I would, but I am. Now that the game has opened up, I?m just picking one of several new bonfires I?ve discovered and *shrug* see where they go!

Sure there aren't any game worlds that are actually to scale, but it takes 2.5 hours to run from one side of skyrim to the other. It takes maybe 15 minutes to run all the way across dark souls 1 between the two farthest points.

Dark Souls 1 is very compact and FEELS really small because you're running across the same routes over and over again. Dark Souls 2 feels bigger because you run through most of the areas only once or twice since you can teleport between all the bonfires at will. It makes all the distances feel larger because you're less familiar with them. They're more disconnected (which does cause the game to lose some of the charm of the original), but that makes it feel like you're traveling through more space.

It's kind of like how Demon's Souls is a much smaller overall game than Dark Souls 1 or 2, but it covers a much larger amount of area "in world." Dark Souls 1 covers the same amount of space "in world" as it does in the game. Dark Souls 2 covers a much larger amount of distance "in world" than what you're actually playing.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

To me I always felt like Drangleic in Dark Souls 2 is supposed to be a whole kingdom, and every area transition is actually you walking for days to reach the next area. That's why some of the transitions don't really make sense, because they aren't actually back to back but are supposed to be days apart. Your character is starting to succumb to the undead curse, their memory is lapsing, they're forgetting how they got to the next area and how much time it took.

See, as cool as the world of Dark Souls 1 is with all of its inter-connectivity, it's never really made sense to me. You're telling me that all of Lordran is roughly 2 square miles? The entirety of the history of this world took place in areas separated by 800 meters of straight running? Izalith was abandoned because of a demon infestation and they decided to build the Undead Burg 100 feet away? The scale is just too small. You learn the world very intimately, and I appreciated that, but at the same time it makes the world feel tiny.

For all of its problems at least the world of Dark Souls 2 feels much bigger. It feels like you're traversing a country rather than just running over the same spots over and over.

Lol, that?s honestly a point you can make about most open world games. I can drive from south Liberty City to north Liberty City in about 6 minutes real time; I?ve a sneaking suspicion a similar trip in the real New York City after which Liberty City is modeled might take just a tad longer. Or Oblivion or Skyrim: you mean to tell me there?re ancient ruins scattered throughout the land, each filled with powerful, arcane weapons, items and creatures, each within a five minute walk of nearly every modern city in Cyrodiil, and still undiscovered, huh? Genuine scale is something hard to pull off in video games. Considering they?re about interactivity, it really wouldn?t behoove devs to take what constitutes reasonable content (say the entirety of Dark Souls 1?s non-topographical content) and stretch it out across a land the size the epic tale truly merits; it?d be a lot of empty space and/or busy work (i.e.: how long did it take for that walk from the first Anor Londo bonfire to The Archers to get old?) That being said DS2 finally does feel quite a bit bigger than DS1, bigger if incoherent: I kill a scorpion lady who leads me to a dwarven ruin which opens up to encampment with undead farmers and pigs which leads to a spider hole and the boss is a dark priest and re-animated corpses?. Yeeeah, mind if I see those cliffnotes? But I?m beginning to appreciate that disjointedness; didn?t think I would, but I am. Now that the game has opened up, I?m just picking one of several new bonfires I?ve discovered and *shrug* see where they go!

Sure there aren't any game worlds that are actually to scale, but it takes 2.5 hours to run from one side of skyrim to the other. It takes maybe 15 minutes to run all the way across dark souls 1 between the two farthest points.

Dark Souls 1 is very compact and FEELS really small because you're running across the same routes over and over again. Dark Souls 2 feels bigger because you run through most of the areas only once or twice since you can teleport between all the bonfires at will. It makes all the distances feel larger because you're less familiar with them. They're more disconnected (which does cause the game to lose some of the charm of the original), but that makes it feel like you're traveling through more space.

It's kind of like how Demon's Souls is a much smaller overall game than Dark Souls 1 or 2, but it covers a much larger amount of area "in world." Dark Souls 1 covers the same amount of space "in world" as it does in the game. Dark Souls 2 covers a much larger amount of distance "in world" than what you're actually playing.

I never really thought much about DS1 being "small". It's compact for sure, but that works to its benefit for gameplay purposes. Skyrim is huge but most of the world is blandly similar by comparison. It could easily be recreated in a procedural map editor, whereas DS1's entire world feels more hand-crafted and intentionally thought out. But yeah, some of the "closeness" of different areas can be off-putting if pausing to think about it.

In this way I also appreciated how DS2 felt more sprawling, but also efficient in the plentiful bonfire teleports. I rarely felt like I was backtracking, or wasting too much time retreading old ground. I suppose that's part of the methodical thematic appeal of the original game as well as Bloodborne, but for gameplay purposes it can be a drag.

Basically, each design type has its pro's and con's, but it's interesting to have both.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

To me I always felt like Drangleic in Dark Souls 2 is supposed to be a whole kingdom, and every area transition is actually you walking for days to reach the next area. That's why some of the transitions don't really make sense, because they aren't actually back to back but are supposed to be days apart. Your character is starting to succumb to the undead curse, their memory is lapsing, they're forgetting how they got to the next area and how much time it took.

See, as cool as the world of Dark Souls 1 is with all of its inter-connectivity, it's never really made sense to me. You're telling me that all of Lordran is roughly 2 square miles? The entirety of the history of this world took place in areas separated by 800 meters of straight running? Izalith was abandoned because of a demon infestation and they decided to build the Undead Burg 100 feet away? The scale is just too small. You learn the world very intimately, and I appreciated that, but at the same time it makes the world feel tiny.

For all of its problems at least the world of Dark Souls 2 feels much bigger. It feels like you're traversing a country rather than just running over the same spots over and over.

Lol, that?s honestly a point you can make about most open world games. I can drive from south Liberty City to north Liberty City in about 6 minutes real time; I?ve a sneaking suspicion a similar trip in the real New York City after which Liberty City is modeled might take just a tad longer. Or Oblivion or Skyrim: you mean to tell me there?re ancient ruins scattered throughout the land, each filled with powerful, arcane weapons, items and creatures, each within a five minute walk of nearly every modern city in Cyrodiil, and still undiscovered, huh? Genuine scale is something hard to pull off in video games. Considering they?re about interactivity, it really wouldn?t behoove devs to take what constitutes reasonable content (say the entirety of Dark Souls 1?s non-topographical content) and stretch it out across a land the size the epic tale truly merits; it?d be a lot of empty space and/or busy work (i.e.: how long did it take for that walk from the first Anor Londo bonfire to The Archers to get old?) That being said DS2 finally does feel quite a bit bigger than DS1, bigger if incoherent: I kill a scorpion lady who leads me to a dwarven ruin which opens up to encampment with undead farmers and pigs which leads to a spider hole and the boss is a dark priest and re-animated corpses?. Yeeeah, mind if I see those cliffnotes? But I?m beginning to appreciate that disjointedness; didn?t think I would, but I am. Now that the game has opened up, I?m just picking one of several new bonfires I?ve discovered and *shrug* see where they go!

Sure there aren't any game worlds that are actually to scale, but it takes 2.5 hours to run from one side of skyrim to the other. It takes maybe 15 minutes to run all the way across dark souls 1 between the two farthest points.

Dark Souls 1 is very compact and FEELS really small because you're running across the same routes over and over again. Dark Souls 2 feels bigger because you run through most of the areas only once or twice since you can teleport between all the bonfires at will. It makes all the distances feel larger because you're less familiar with them. They're more disconnected (which does cause the game to lose some of the charm of the original), but that makes it feel like you're traveling through more space.

It's kind of like how Demon's Souls is a much smaller overall game than Dark Souls 1 or 2, but it covers a much larger amount of area "in world." Dark Souls 1 covers the same amount of space "in world" as it does in the game. Dark Souls 2 covers a much larger amount of distance "in world" than what you're actually playing.

I never really thought much about DS1 being "small". It's compact for sure, but that works to its benefit for gameplay purposes. Skyrim is huge but most of the world is blandly similar by comparison. It could easily be recreated in a procedural map editor, whereas DS1's entire world feels more hand-crafted and intentionally thought out. But yeah, some of the "closeness" of different areas can be off-putting if pausing to think about it.

In this way I also appreciated how DS2 felt more sprawling, but also efficient in the plentiful bonfire teleports. I rarely felt like I was backtracking, or wasting too much time retreading old ground. I suppose that's part of the methodical thematic appeal of the original game as well as Bloodborne, but for gameplay purposes it can be a drag.

Basically, each design type has its pro's and con's, but it's interesting to have both.

I agree, I enjoy both.

I'm much more impressed by Dark Souls 1's level design and inter-connectivity because of how much time and thought clearly went into arranging it, but the same time I like the fact that Dark Souls 2 feels more like a journey and is more focused on forward progress.

Dark Souls 1 sometimes felt like you were faffing about in the same 3 areas all the time when you kept having to run back and forth to upgrade weapons. Go to Andre to upgrade X weapon, then to the giant blacksmith to make the boss version of the weapon, then down to blight town to upgrade your pyromancy flame, then back up to the giant blacksmith to buy more titanite over and over again. Anor Londo starts to look a hell of a lot less magical the 50th time you run through it to buy more twinkling titanite.