Dark Souls has ruined the RPG for me...

[ImperialSunlight]

"This is the Nexus.
It holds together the northern land of Boletaria.
Thou can'st not exit the Nexus, but each of the five Archstones will connect thee to another node."

Yeah, I'm in the same boat to a degree. Once you taste of the fruit of greatness nothing else will be the same. Games like Skyrim are still fun and I still like their worlds and such, but I haven't played a game that can stand up to the souls games. Skyrim particularly is interesting in theory, I like the world it's set in, but the actual application is often lackluster and breaks immersion. As an rpg, I feel that Skyrim, at least unmodded Skyrim is really lacking both in style and function.

Dark Souls, on the other hand, is immersive (in terms of atmosphere, at least) and works well mechanically in its own right, while also having a fascinating overarching world as a bonus.

 

[Itchi_da_killa]

"This is the Nexus.
It holds together the northern land of Boletaria.
Thou can'st not exit the Nexus, but each of the five Archstones will connect thee to another node."

Yeah, I'm in the same boat to a degree. Once you taste of the fruit of greatness nothing else will be the same. Games like Skyrim are still fun and I still like their worlds and such, but I haven't played a game that can stand up to the souls games. Skyrim particularly is interesting in theory, I like the world it's set in, but the actual application is often lackluster and breaks immersion. As an rpg, I feel that Skyrim, at least unmodded Skyrim is really lacking both in style and function.

Dark Souls, on the other hand, is immersive (in terms of atmosphere, at least) and works well mechanically in its own right, while also having a fascinating overarching world as a bonus.

The combat in Dark Souls houses the most fun for me. I love being able to deflect an attack with the shield, either by raising it up between me and the enemy or by parrying the attack. Successfully executing a parry and re-post is a great "fuck yeah" moment that many games can't offer. Having that option speaks volumes, because in most games, it's mandatory to take damage when fighting enemies. The different types of rolling and dodging helps the sense of actual combat. The move sets for the weapons and the many classes of weapons gives you a great amount of options to customize the way you battle. Each with their own pros and cons of course, but that makes it so much more interesting. Planning your armor combinations is loads of fun. I can go on and on. Dark Souls/Demons Souls are not perfect technically (what game is?), but it serves the player (customer) a lot better than most action/RPG games on the market.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

So we agree that you need a HIGH amount of player agency, that rules out Dark Souls as an RPG then. You don't need character growth in a statistical fashion, are you saying DnD ceases being an RPG at max level? You don't need combat either. I still don't get why you think RPGs need combat.

1) If you don't think Dark Souls has a high amount of player agency then you clearly weren't paying attention when you played the game.

2)Character growth in a statistical fashion is a distinguishing factor of an RPG in both tabletop and videogames. And while RPGs don't need combat you do need statistics for non combat actions. Like Bluffing and Diplomacy.

You've admitted before that you haven't played many RPG games so I don't know what makes you so sure you have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

And, that's exactly my whole point. In Dark Souls, you basically use a character with a shield and a Dex weapon or a character with a shield and a Str weapon. Mages aren't even a viable playstyle.

That is pretty wrong, dude. Sorcery is considered overpowered by the majority of players. My first character was a sorcerer, so I should know. The other ~12 or so were each built differently from eachother, so your oversimplification is overly simplifying things. I can get into details if you want, but just trust me on this one so I don't get myself started.

You don't get enough magic to get from bonfire to bonfire in Dark Souls as a mage. You HAVE to melee combat to get through the game. Magic was overpowered in Demon's Souls, I've never heard anyone say that magic was overpowered in Dark Souls.

Sorcery in Demon's was kind of easy mode through the game. It was way overpowered, and waaaaaay to easy to do..well..everything. My first mage character for instance, at about level 60 cast two spells (homing soul mass) at the false king and he fell over.

Learning how to mage in Dark though was bad. I don't have a problem with the limited use spells etc but for new players, trying to be a mage type character was quite close to impossible without looking up guides and the like.

I'm hoping they have found a middle ground between this, but we shall see.

---

So we agree that you need a HIGH amount of player agency, that rules out Dark Souls as an RPG then. You don't need character growth in a statistical fashion, are you saying DnD ceases being an RPG at max level? You don't need combat either. I still don't get why you think RPGs need combat.

1) If you don't think Dark Souls has a high amount of player agency then you clearly weren't paying attention when you played the game.

2)Character growth in a statistical fashion is a distinguishing factor of an RPG in both tabletop and videogames. And while RPGs don't need combat you do need statistics for non combat actions. Like Bluffing and Diplomacy.

You've admitted before that you haven't played many RPG games so I don't know what makes you so sure you have a clue what you're talking about.

Dark Souls does not have a high amount of player agency, the focus is on dungeon crawling. What do you spend most of your time doing in Dark Souls? Dungeon crawling. What do you spend most of your time doing in Mass Effect? Role-playing. That's why Dark Souls is not an RPG and Mass Effect is. What you do most in a game is what genre the game falls into to.

You don't need statistics in a live-action RPG. I don't play that many RPGs because most of them suck, JRPGs with their lackluster turn-based battles that require no strategy and WRPGs with their action combat that is rather poor.

 

[Ishal]

"This is the Nexus.
It holds together the northern land of Boletaria.
Thou can'st not exit the Nexus, but each of the five Archstones will connect thee to another node."

Yeah, I'm in the same boat to a degree. Once you taste of the fruit of greatness nothing else will be the same. Games like Skyrim are still fun and I still like their worlds and such, but I haven't played a game that can stand up to the souls games. Skyrim particularly is interesting in theory, I like the world it's set in, but the actual application is often lackluster and breaks immersion. As an rpg, I feel that Skyrim, at least unmodded Skyrim is really lacking both in style and function.

Dark Souls, on the other hand, is immersive (in terms of atmosphere, at least) and works well mechanically in its own right, while also having a fascinating overarching world as a bonus.

The combat in Dark Souls houses the most fun for me. I love being able to deflect an attack with the shield, either by raising it up between me and the enemy or by parrying the attack. Successfully executing a parry and re-post is a great "fuck yeah" moment that many games can't offer. Having that option speaks volumes, because in most games, it's mandatory to take damage when fighting enemies. The different types of rolling and dodging helps the sense of actual combat. The move sets for the weapons and the many classes of weapons gives you a great amount of options to customize the way you battle. Each with their own pros and cons of course, but that makes it so much more interesting. Planning your armor combinations is loads of fun. I can go on and on. Dark Souls/Demons Souls are not perfect technically (what game is?), but it serves the player (customer) a lot better than most action/RPG games on the market.

Heck yes, man. Yeah! You caught the bug! Once you feel comfortable parrying with a shield, role up a new character that has higher mobility (maybe a dex hybrid of some sort) and use a parrying dagger, or just bare hand parry. Once you're confident moving around and using the timed rolls its incredible fun to two hand weapons and play without a shield. High risk, high reward play that Dark Souls is more than happy to deliver. Also, Jolly Co-operation!

 

[Directionless]

"Dark Souls has ruined RPGs for me" is like saying "Gears of War has ruined shooters for me". Do you know how many different kinds of RPGs are out there; all with elements you'll never find in Dark Souls?

How Dark Souls has ruined Skyrim for you is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, Skyrim is boring as balls, but it is SUCH a different game from Dark Souls they may aswell be different genres.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Actually, there's an npc that can be found right after the tutorial that can increase the number of spellcasts on your first spell from 30 to 60. That's more than enough to get you from place to place in the first areas. The same npc will also enchant your melee gear to scale with your intelligence for the few cases you'll want to use melee.

And if you ask if magic is op on the Dark Souls subreddit or any other Dark Souls board, you'll see what the consensus is.

What NPC? Pretty much everyone says playing a mage is much tougher in Dark Souls (vs Demon) at least until you get the good spells.

I did a quick Google search (I don't go to reddit, that site is so horrible) and here's the 2nd search result where 84% say it's not overpowered:
http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t9387-is-the-sorcerer-overpowered

 

[infinity_turtles]

What NPC? Pretty much everyone says playing a mage is much tougher in Dark Souls (vs Demon) at least until you get the good spells.

I did a quick Google search (I don't go to reddit, that site is so horrible) and here's the 2nd search result where 84% say it's not overpowered:
http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t9387-is-the-sorcerer-overpowered

The link is talking about the starting class. The consensus in the thread is more that the sorcery you start with helps with early bosses, the low endurance and vitality make you vulnerable, and that anything you start with you can get anyway so might as well as start as something less vulnerable.

Also, the NPC is Rickert, a smith in New Londo. He sells a second(if you started as a sorcerer) copy of Soul Arrow so you can can have it attuned twice, as well as Heavy Soul Arrow and a catalyst, letting you make it from bonfire to bonfire using only spells. Sorcerery builds are pretty much the only ones who have any purpose for the guy, whether it's to get an early catalyst and a couple sorceries for non-sorcerer class starts, or to get the second Soul Arrow for sorcerer starts.

*edit* And yes, Dark Souls makes it harder for Mages compared to Demon's Souls. In Demon's Souls they had it it easy from start to finish. Having to manage your spells is part of how they balanced them in Dark Souls, though some of the sorceries are still rediculously overpowered(The ones added in the DLC mainly) While it needs tweaking, I like the way they balance it. Sorcery is very strong, but you have conserve your important spells. Reminds me of D&D.

 

[Itchi_da_killa]

"Dark Souls has ruined RPGs for me" is like saying "Gears of War has ruined shooters for me". Do you know how many different kinds of RPGs are out there; all with elements you'll never find in Dark Souls?

How Dark Souls has ruined Skyrim for you is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, Skyrim is boring as balls, but it is SUCH a different game from Dark Souls they may aswell be different genres.

My title was meant to be kind of humorous, that's all. Some people understood that. I was saying that I loved the game so much that I haven't been able to find another rpg game that excites me as much...so far. So I was hoping by starting this thread that some people could give me suggestions. And many people of the community who left suggestions have totally helped me decide on some games that might sustain my hunger. Mission accomplished, and Skyrim "is" boring as balls. Hope that answers the question that was so beyond you.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Dark Souls does not have a high amount of player agency, the focus is on dungeon crawling. What do you spend most of your time doing in Dark Souls? Dungeon crawling.

False.

There's tons of player agency. The fact that you can leave messages that effect other player's game worlds represents player agency. You leave that message in their world and if they find it helpful your game world changes with you receiving Humanity. The fact that killing certain NPCs bear different results on the game world is an example of high player agency. Like I've been saying this whole time, you did not pay any attention to what's going on in Dark Souls. The item Humanity is the item in that game that pretty much leads to all of the world changing events, thus its pretty much the player agency tool of the game alongside paths taken and NPCs trusted.

What do you spend most of your time doing in Mass Effect? Role-playing.

False again. Mass Effect and most Bioware RPGs not called Dragon Age: Origins are generally weak in the role-play aspect. If you think that those dialogues with the good/neutral/bad options are representative of role play, you don't know what role play is. I'm starting to think that you don't even play tabletop RPGs often.

Mass Effect's "roleplaying" is paper thin and can only be done in its dialogue. Everything else you do in Mass Effect outside of that doesn't build character. In Dark Souls you can roleplay through action instead of relying solely on dialigue. Bioware games besides DA:O leaves the deciding factor of the game's ending off until the end. You could play a bad guy the whole time in Knight's of the Old Republic 1&2, Jade Empire, and Mass Effect, and still get the good ending. The roleplaying in Bioware games are pretty limited. You play a blank slate character and have polarizing decisions pelted at you to choose from until the end and then choose which ending you want. The role play isn't strong. Mass Effect is also known for ripping out the majority of its RPG mechanics in its second game and people were disappointing. You're also forgetting that what makes Mass Effect an RPG is that it holds the RPG tenants I mentioned earlier. Same with Dark Souls. Both hold the tenants.

That's why Dark Souls is not an RPG and Mass Effect is. What you do most in a game is what genre the game falls into to.

Yeah, at this point I don't think you're even holding tabletop RPG tenants in your argument. You're just holding ropeplay in general as your argument. All tabletop games have mechanics and statistics. Those represent your character. The role playing aspect of tabletop games is all the players and the game master. Which, once again, are working together to tell an interactive story. The character sheet is there to represent your persona's strengths and weaknesses combat and non combat. The personality and story is you the player and your decisions along with actions as well as you're personality.

What you're talking about is a specific kind of roleplaying which doesn't involve a lot of combat. Maybe a low-mid combat campaign. Maybe you should play the game To The Moon. It's an RPG game with no combat and all the story and player agency you want. But you have to realize that your definition of an RPG is more of a style of how they are play rather than the only way they are played.

Dark Souls holds all the tenants of a tabletop RPG therefore it is a RPG video game. Its not that hard to comprehend.

You don't need statistics in a live-action RPG. I don't play that many RPGs because most of them suck, JRPGs with their lackluster turn-based battles that require no strategy and WRPGs with their action combat that is rather poor.

In a live-action RPG you do need statistic if your playing a tabletop RPG. If you're just roleplaying with no character sheets such as in forums for example then you don't need them. But in D&D, you do. That's how the game is played. And Video game RPGs follow the tenants carried in tabletop RPG mechanics.

And I trust you're aware that I cannot take you saying that you don't play RPGs because most of them suck seriously. You're the same person who started a thread about Kingdom of Amalur and full on admitted you haven't played many RPGs outside of KoA.

If you think WRPGs suck, go play the Icewind Dale franchise, the Baldur's Gate franchise, Planescape: Torment and the Neverwinter Nights franchise. They are all licensed D&D video games that work off of official D&D rulesets and are regarded as some of the greatest WRPGs of all time.

As for JRPGs I find you statement about hating turn based combat laughable because all tabletop RPGs and even live roleplay combat takes place in turns.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

What NPC? Pretty much everyone says playing a mage is much tougher in Dark Souls (vs Demon) at least until you get the good spells.

I did a quick Google search (I don't go to reddit, that site is so horrible) and here's the 2nd search result where 84% say it's not overpowered:
http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t9387-is-the-sorcerer-overpowered

Rickert of Vinheim. I don't know how it was in Demon's Souls, but just because it's "harder" to play doesn't mean it's weak. A sorcerer in general just needs a bit more careful play since you need to find/rescue the NPCs who sell spells and some items contribute to sorcery damage. When set up well, it's one of the most damaging things in the game - and it's ranged, too.

Maybe you should read that thread, and not look at the 16 people who say the starting sorcerer class is not op (because they're right, but that's not relevant to what we're talking about here).

I did skim through the thread. One of the people that actually posted something rather lengthy said that for a 1st-time player, sorcery is tough to start out with. Also, most people aren't going to know that NPC is there to up their spells.

Dark Souls does not have a high amount of player agency, the focus is on dungeon crawling. What do you spend most of your time doing in Dark Souls? Dungeon crawling.

False.

There's tons of player agency. The fact that you can leave messages that effect other player's game worlds represents player agency. You leave that message in their world and if they find it helpful your game world changes with you receiving Humanity. The fact that killing certain NPCs bear different results on the game world is an example of high player agency. Like I've been saying this whole time, you did not pay any attention to what's going on in Dark Souls. The item Humanity is the item in that game that pretty much leads to all of the world changing events, thus its pretty much the player agency tool of the game alongside paths taken and NPCs trusted.

There is not tons of player agency in Dark Souls. The fact that you lead off with the message mechanic says everything. It's just a minor little thing that is cool and unique but it mainly adds to atmosphere than anything else. The point of killing NPCs is usually to get things earlier than you can. Humanity is mainly to be human to summon players to help or to get summoned yourself. Most players will stay hollow to not get invaded. All you Dark Souls fanboys make so much out of these rather minor mechanics that you're just speaking hyperbole, you make them out to be way more than they are.

There's far more dungeon crawling than player agency.

Mass Effect's "roleplaying" is paper thin and can only be done in its dialogue. Everything else you do in Mass Effect outside of that doesn't build character. In Dark Souls you can roleplay through action instead of relying solely on dialigue. Bioware games besides DA:O leaves the deciding factor of the game's ending off until the end. You could play a bad guy the whole time in Knight's of the Old Republic 1&2, Jade Empire, and Mass Effect, and still get the good ending. The roleplaying in Bioware games are pretty limited. You play a blank slate character and have polarizing decisions pelted at you to choose from until the end and then choose which ending you want. The role play isn't strong. Mass Effect is also known for ripping out the majority of its RPG mechanics in its second game and people were disappointing. You're also forgetting that what makes Mass Effect an RPG is that it holds the RPG tenants I mentioned earlier. Same with Dark Souls. Both hold the tenants.

You completely mold your Shepard into a unique character in Mass Effect. You can even create your own character arcs. You create Shepard's character development yourself. Your own character that is perceived by others is conveyed mainly through what you say. Dialog is very important. Mass Effect gives you plenty of important decisions to make so you can role-play through actions as well; since when is shooting someone in the back not an action?

Dark Souls holds all the tenants of a tabletop RPG therefore it is a RPG video game. Its not that hard to comprehend.

Tabletop RPGs have non-combat skills...

In a live-action RPG you do need statistic if your playing a tabletop RPG. If you're just roleplaying with no character sheets such as in forums for example then you don't need them. But in D&D, you do. That's how the game is played. And Video game RPGs follow the tenants carried in tabletop RPG mechanics.

And I trust you're aware that I cannot take you saying that you don't play RPGs because most of them suck seriously. You're the same person who started a thread about Kingdom of Amalur and full on admitted you haven't played many RPGs outside of KoA.

If you think WRPGs suck, go play the Icewind Dale franchise, the Baldur's Gate franchise, Planescape: Torment and the Neverwinter Nights franchise. They are all licensed D&D video games that work off of official D&D rulesets and are regarded as some of the greatest WRPGs of all time.

As for JRPGs I find you statement about hating turn based combat laughable because all tabletop RPGs and even live roleplay combat takes place in turns.

Live-action RPGs and tabletop RPGs are 2 completely different mediums.

I don't play many video game RPGs because so many of them suck, the combat system sucks along with the story and characters. JRPGs and their crappy turn-based combat and WRPGs with their crappy real-time combat; if the games didn't focus on combat so much then I could deal with the lackluster combat but more of your time is spent fighting in RPGs for some reason. I didn't say ALL RPGs suck, I said most, I never said there aren't any good ones. Also, I'm so fucking tried of Tolkien fantasy so you pointing out games that are literally video game versions of DnD does not help. I want new worlds, races, classes, etc. from my RPGs, not playing slightly different versions of your standard fighters, rogues, and mages. If I want DnD, I'll play Pathfinder (since DnD 4.0 sucks).

There's nothing wrong with turn-based combat when done properly. One of the biggest things about turn-based combat is having positioning be extremely important like DnD. For example, XCOM is basically DnD's exact combat system but tailored for gun combat and it's great. However, JRPGs are just your party members on one side and the enemy on the other just trading attacks, it's not strategic at all and it's just boring. FFXII proves that the FF turn-based battle systems are devoid of strategy; FFXII under-the-hood is just FFX's combat system but with gambits. If a few if-then-else statements (gambits) can make a game play itself, it's not strategic. You can't program XCOM (or say Chess) to play itself with a few if-then-else statements, but you can program any FF game (except Tactics) to play itself with a few if-then-else statements. Most JRPG turn-based combat systems just keep you in menus for literally no reason. Xenosaga II actually had a pretty interesting turn-based combat system (it needed some work) but the fans hated it for being too slow (turn-based combat is supposed to be fucking slow because you are supposed to have to stop and think) and then Xenosaga III went back to boring ass repetitive turn-based combat. Resonance of Fate has a good turned-based system (it needs work as well as there's really only 2 strategies but player positioning is at least important) and Valkyria Chronicles has a good system as well.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Oh it's also very doable without that NPC if you (gasp) use your weapon once in a while. I don't even know what you're trying to say, really. You said sorcery isn't viable. It absolutely is, beyond all doubt. I'm just informing you of this.

With all the enemies, it's kinda hard to imagine being able to fully go through dungeons finding all the loot and secrets and such as a mage just using magic (or at least using magic for the majority of enemies). It just seems to me you need to block and attack especially your first time through. I was a Dex/Faith build and it didn't seem like had got that many spells to use, I do realize Miracles are probably the least offensive of the three magics though.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

snip

Yeah I think it's time for me to bow out of this conversation. I've already proven my point and instead of arguing my points directly you seem more interested in telling people what you didn't like about Dark Souls' RPG implementations rather than posting an argument about how its not an RPG.

I'd say that you should actually play some more RPG both Western and Japanese before just saying "most RPGs suck" and trying to define what an RPG is.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Yeah I think it's time for me to bow out of this conversation. I've already proven my point and instead of arguing my points directly you seem more interested in telling people what you didn't like about Dark Souls' RPG implementations rather than posting an argument about how its not an RPG.

I'd say that you should actually play some more RPG both Western and Japanese before just saying "most RPGs suck" and trying to define what an RPG is.

LMAO, whatever the thing I do most in a game better be good, most RPGs in general have you fighting more than anything, and for the most part their battle systems suck so why should I play them? It's not like their stories even end up being that good even the ones known story like Xenosaga that I slogged through (all 3 of them). It's hard finding JRPGs I can actually play as I won't play ones with random battles, they seem to have finally given up with random battles but last gen was still full of JRPGs with random battles and this gen has had very few console JRPGs. And I just explained point-by-point why most JRPGs turn-based battle systems suck as they aren't about positioning and you can program them to play themselves with a few if-then-else statements, I'm not interested in playing a game that I can program to play itself. I tried the demo for Ni No Kuni and it was fucking horrible. Lastly, I'll play more WRPGs when they stop with the fucking generic Tolkien fantasy that's been done to death (WRPGs are really like shooters using the same setting over and over again; all you got last gen was WWII shooters, all you get this gen are modern military shooters), I played Mass Effect because it wasn't fucking Tolkien fantasy, it was new worlds, new races, new classes.

I simply explained to you how to classify a game with simple as fuck rules like whatever you do the most is what the game's genre is. Isn't a game called an FPS when you mainly shoot enemies from a 1st-person perspective? Isn't a game called a platformer when you do more platforming than anything else? You dungeon crawl much more than anything in Dark Souls thus it's a dungeon crawler, I never said it doesn't have RPG elements, they just aren't the core of the game. How hard is that concept to grasp? But no, you come back with that Dark Souls is totally an RPG because you can write shit on the ground, seriously?!?! And you say Mass Effect's role-playing has no actions and it's just lame dialog; what a character says is extremely important to how they are perceived by others and there's a bunch of actions to decide as well (Can you shoot a beloved teammate in the back that you've grown to love in Dark Souls? Hell no).