Dark Souls - without soul?

[endtherapture]

I've played Dark Souls and I enjoy it but one of the things that I don't enjoy about the game is the robotic qualities of the enemies.

Most DS players tell you to learn the moveset of the enemies to complete the game, as the enemies only have predetermined amount of attacks that you simply have to learn the wind up for and react to.

For me this seems quite an archaic concept. It makes the enemies and bosses seem like robots, with no thoughts or personality. I'd really like to see the next game of the series include some AI that is more adapative and thinks like a creature with a mind and a soul, instead of just randomly using it's preset moves up.

 

[Zhukov]

Okay... usually I'd be all for bashing on Dark Souls, but in this case I think you're either being unfair or not expressing yourself clearly.

I mean, "enemies only have predetermined amount of attacks". Isn't that what all enemy AIs do in basically every game ever do? They have a set of available actions which they trigger according to scripts and in response to player actions.

Personally, I was occasionally impressed by how adaptive some of the bosses could be. You'd think you'd found a blind spot then they'd go and use their tail or something. Some of the human-sized enemies could be pretty tricky too.

 

[Casual Shinji]

How about you give some examples of games where the AI isn't "robotic" then, because honestly, your complaint covers just about every game enemy ever conceived. What enemy doesn't cycle through a predetermined amount of moves, which we as the player then try to exploit?

 

[Sniper Team 4]

What really irks me about that game is that I don't feel any atmosphere in it. No compelling character or story, and no particularly immersive atmosphere to get into.

That's what makes the game feel very boring to me: all I see in it is the high difficulty challenge... and nothing else.

I get where you're coming from on that. That, and the lack of help I got when I asked for it, turned me off of Dark Souls really fast when I first tried it years ago. "I'm way into the game now, and I still have no idea what is going on or why I am ringing these bells," was one of my biggest complaints to my friend who was absolutely in love with the game. I still think the story itself is very lacking, but it is there. Be prepared to have a lot of fans tell you that it's in the lore, which now that I know and understand, I must admit is pretty deep and interesting. It makes the game much more fun for me to play this second time around.
I must ask why you didn't like the atmosphere though. That was the only thing that made me what to give the game another chance soon after I quit. I found the levels and the world beautiful and very engrossing, but it wasn't enough to make me stick around the first time.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

What really irks me about that game is that I don't feel any atmosphere in it. No compelling character or story, and no particularly immersive atmosphere to get into.

That's what makes the game feel very boring to me: all I see in it is the high difficulty challenge... and nothing else.

I found the opposite, that the characters were actually good and so was the atmosphere, but good at creating a sense of loneliness and despair and inevitability that I found quite immersive. I can see why you'd get that, but...I don't know, just saying that from the view of someone who does like Dark Souls, atmosphere is a point in it's favour rather than just a downside that isn't very significant.

OT: If your complaint is that the AI are predictable, I agree to an extent, but the challenge is in getting to a point where you can predict, and adapting quickly. Often going into new areas ramped up the difficulty just by virtue of not being familiar with parry timings etc. But I do agree, once you get parry timings down you're pretty safe against a lot of enemies. I haven't, however, played Dark Souls 2 yet, and with shields not being as reliable, backstabs taking place out of invulnerability and groups aggroing at the same time, I reserve judgment. It may have improved. However I will say, Ornstein and Smough, just having the two of them fighting you at the same time is challenging and thrilling, despite their individual AI not being anything special. You're forced to react and not able to always observe what is happening, and it is just so good.

 

[verdant monkai]

What really irks me about that game is that I don't feel any atmosphere in it. No compelling character or story, and no particularly immersive atmosphere to get into.

That's what makes the game feel very boring to me: all I see in it is the high difficulty challenge... and nothing else.

Have to agree with this.

Also why was there nothing good in the chests ever? In DS1 you would stumble across whole armour sets which made it feel like Christmas. Now in DS2 they all contain crap like Lloyd Talismans and fucking fruit. The npc's weren't cool either, Lautrec and Solaire were mysterious and you wanted to be like them/have their armour. Nearly all the DS2 npc's are just guys. You can see their faces and they just seem unhelpful rather than mysterious.

 

[Something Amyss]

For me this seems quite an archaic concept.

The whole game is an archaic concept, from my understanding. It's an oldschool game for oldschool players who think true gameplay is about rote memorisation.

 

[endtherapture]

How about you give some examples of games where the AI isn't "robotic" then, because honestly, your complaint covers just about every game enemy ever conceived. What enemy doesn't cycle through a predetermined amount of moves, which we as the player then try to exploit?

The soldiers in Crysis 1 have interesting AI - flanking moves etc.

A bit of adaptability in the AI in Dark Souls would be nice depending on what style of moves and weapons you use. Say you have heavy armour or a two handed weapon, vary the types of moves used.

At the moment the bosses and enemies just seem very devoid of personality in my opinion.

 

[Bombiz]

What really irks me about that game is that I don't feel any atmosphere in it. No compelling character or story, and no particularly immersive atmosphere to get into.

That's what makes the game feel very boring to me: all I see in it is the high difficulty challenge... and nothing else.

Have to agree with this.

Also why was there nothing good in the chests ever? In DS1 you would stumble across whole armour sets which made it feel like Christmas. Now in DS2 they all contain crap like Lloyd Talismans and fucking fruit. The npc's weren't cool either, Lautrec and Solaire were mysterious and you wanted to be like them/have their armour. Nearly all the DS2 npc's are just guys. You can see their faces and they just seem unhelpful rather than mysterious.

That person was criticizing the whole series in general. Not DKS2. So unless you think DKS1 had no atmosphere I think you should revise your statement.

 

[Thyunda]

Okay... usually I'd be all for bashing on Dark Souls, but in this case I think you're either being unfair or not expressing yourself clearly.

I mean, "enemies only have predetermined amount of attacks". Isn't that what all enemy AIs do in basically every game ever do? They have a set of available actions which they trigger according to scripts and in response to player actions.

Personally, I was occasionally impressed by how adaptive some of the bosses could be. You'd think you'd found a blind spot then they'd go and use their tail or something. Some of the human-sized enemies could be pretty tricky too.

The god-damned Stray Demon beneath the Asylum. I figured I'd be able to one-life him no trouble, like I did the Gaping Dragon. Big, slow, simple.

Started off simple. Big overhead swing, easy to avoid. Then he followed it up immediately by splattering me against the wall. Second try. I approach. Splat. I'm dead.

I do not like that boss.

 

[loa]

So you want every enemy to be completely unpredictable because that would be fun or something?
How about you go to the dragon shrine in dark souls 2 and see how much fun you have.

 

[Johnny Impact]

My observation is that human players are often predictable, too. Don't get me wrong, humans are always far more challenging than bots. But a guy controlling a Boomer in Left 4 Dead is going to display certain behaviors: hide, climb, avoid line of sight, wait until Survivors are distracted, try to be close to them when you die. AI-controlled Boomers do those things. Humans just do them better.

Dark Souls is meant for people who like old-school single player games. Observe, exploit, memorize. If you don't like dodge-and-counter gameplay, DS just isn't for you. Doesn't make you a bad person, doesn't make DS a bad game.

I like the faded, entropic atmosphere of Dark Souls a lot. I always have the feeling that things used to be so much better, that grand things happened here once, but no more. The great clock of the universe is almost wound down. Again, not for everyone.

 

[endtherapture]

So you want every enemy to be completely unpredictable because that would be fun or something?
How about you go to the dragon shrine in dark souls 2 and see how much fun you have.

Not completely unpredictable, but just to have AI that doesn't just regurgitate the same 6 moves regardless of what you do. A system of moves which adapt to how you fight would be far more interesting.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Uh, i just gonna link this: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/8802-Dark-Souls
If you want the tl;dr jump to 4:10.

Yes, the combat is very "classic" but it's not like new titles really revolutionized anything. Shooters works the same since 20 years. RPG's do the same, RTS do the same. There are usually more and/or diffrent gimmicks but the basics are the same - often just done very shitty.
Or is anyone really trying to convince someone else that Skyrim has a better combat-system than DkS? If the DkS-series has a bad combat system then 99.9% of all games do to and the statement is basically useless.

The series is atmospheric, has a great combat system and (it's sad this has to be repeated over and over again) treats me as a fully functional person. It gives you tools, provides some problems and then let's you solve them in whatever way you come up with. No hand holding and i'm not feeling like me playing the game is ruining the developpers vision of his game.
The beginning in the first game is rough and apparently alot of people couldn't put up with finding out stuff on their own but i think they did a great job in the second installment with giving new players guidelines and introducing them smoother into the game.

And OT: Really? Complaints about AI? Can you tell me to which brilliant AI you're comparing it to, because i'd really want to play that game!

 

[Schmeiser]

I'm not sure but enemies charging at you as soon as you start drinking estus is quite smart, darkwraiths attacking with the grab if you block for too much, black knights shield bash you if you hold block for too long. Never knowing ( or atleast i haven't found a sign) when artorias is gonna use the triple jump attack or just double and fucks you over. Enemies back stab you if you turn their back to them and keep spamming it.

For me dark souls has better AI than most games but that's just me.

I would really love an example instead of just AI IS DUMB. And for the people not knowing what's the game about it's actually all in the game but i guess people don't wanna waste their time reading item descriptions and want just huge dialogues with everything explained, it's all there in the world and the npcs and enemies.

Nothing is random in dark souls.

 

[verdant monkai]

The person you're quoting is trolling. Saying a game with atmosphere has no atmosphere isn't even trying
As fa as the NPCs go, how is Lucatiel not helpful? You don't see her face either, though that seems like a curious complaint. How is Licia not mysterious?
Did you literally just avoid half the chests in the game? They contain spells and weapons that many people use constantly.
Either you're doing a better job of trolling than they other guy, or you haven't actually played the games.

It didnt seem like they were trolling. I think you are just having trouble accepting an opinion which isn't your own.
Lucatiel was ok... but her weird beard mask and Spanish ponse gear wasn't all that cool. Whereas the knights in Dark souls 1 are. Matter of opinion really isn't it.

You are imprinting your own meanings onto my words here. I said Lautrec and Solaire were mysterious, whereas the DS2 npc's weren't cool.

Read posts properly in future.

That person was criticizing the whole series in general. Not DKS2. So unless you think DKS1 had no atmosphere I think you should revise your statement.

Nah I cant be asked.

 

[loa]

Not completely unpredictable, but just to have AI that doesn't just regurgitate the same 6 moves regardless of what you do. A system of moves which adapt to how you fight would be far more interesting.

If you block all the time, some enemies will slap your shield to the side.
If you stand to the feet of large enemies, they will stomp you and do other location-specific attacks.
If you drink an estus or spam spells, some bosses will make a straight b-line to you.
Some enemies will block exits of rooms so you can't run past the other enemies.

What more do you want?
Demanding team dynamics like in crysis is a bit ridiculous because this is neither a fast paced egoshooter with cover mechanics nor do you ever want to fight more than 1 enemy at once.
So what exactly do you want?

 

[StriderShinryu]

For me this seems quite an archaic concept.

The whole game is an archaic concept, from my understanding. It's an oldschool game for oldschool players who think true gameplay is about rote memorisation.

If you're really bad at the game and die numerous times trying to memorize what to do, it may not be the game series for you.
Personally, I spent most of my time playing these games taking in my surroundings and thinking. I was able to spot traps or ambushes and avoid them. I was far from perfect, but I didn't need to be.
A huge chunk of the game is you being able to think and apply the things that you've learned. Thats where a lot of the fun comes from and I'm not shocked if you're not having fun by refusing to do that. Of course you'll be caught off guard from time to time, but even then you learn. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single section of thing in the souls games that require rote memorization. That may just be an error on your part.

Very much this. The Souls games are built upon the player achieving a foundation of knowledge and knowing how to use that knowledge to their advantage. There's also a strong push towards caution and accepting failure as a means to improvement. In those senses, it's not really about memorization at all. If you learn how to play the game, and play it as it's designed to be played, you'll actually do very well without much memorization at all. This is one of the keys reasons why I also feel that Dark Souls 2 is frequently commented on as being so much easier than Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1. Yes, some of the design elements make it easier but many of those who have played DS2 also came at it from the vantage point of having at least played one of the previous Souls games. They already had a high base level of knowledge going in, and they already knew what sort of approach was complimentary to the design of the game.

For my own personal experience, I really didn't put all that much time into Dark Souls 1 and I haven't played Demon's Souls at all. I, however, just recently completed a fun through of Dark Souls 2 where I didn't use a shield at all. Honestly, on my first playthrough of the game, which was also my first real dedicated solo play of any Souls game at all, I didn't really conceive of that being possible. In practice, I cut my teeth on the Old Knights in Heides Tower and that's about it. I didn't spend time memorizing enemy patterns or locations. I simply learned how enemies generally worked and, more importantly, learned the mechanics of the game and what my character was capable of. Once you have that foundation of knowledge you just have to apply it.

As for the OP, I think that the limitations in AI aren't really any more existent in Souls than in any other game. They may, in some sense, be more visible simply because you are often fighting in smaller scale battles (1v1 or 1v2 is most common) but also because the games punish you so harshly for your mistakes. In most games, enemy AI is just as limited if not more so, but it really doesn't matter because you're swarmed with enemies and/or a single misread of an enemies routine isn't going to kill you. The Souls AI routine deficiencies are more glaring because your own failures to interpret them are magnified. Now, that's not to say that I wouldn't like better AI in Souls games and other games as well, but it's not really fair to call Souls out for AI shortcomings when it's a problem with almost every game out there.