Dark Souls - without soul?

[Drizzitdude]

I cannot tell if the op is just messing with us. Pretty much every rpg, no pretty much every game rather forces enemies to follow a predetermined set of moves for a variety of situations. Name an rpg where enemies literally have an unlimited skill/move set, it doesn't exist. Dragons will breath fire when your far away, enemies do sweeping attacks when you come at an angle or attempt to counter you when you swing, its all very common stuff so I don't see what the complaint is. What are you trying to compare the game to that makes this method seem "archaic"?

On the topic of enemies not patrolling that isn't really true. There are plenty of enemies that do have patrol paths but I will agree that they don't do anything aside from that. I can look past that though due to the fact it contributes to the high quality level design, also if you were a rotting corpse with no soul or memories and with nothing but other dead dudes around you what would you do? It isn't like you would hit the clubs or have a nice meal. You essentially a zombie, you would probably sit around and moan all day.

If we're looking at RPGs - take Dragons Age, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale - the enemies have AI that can react to what you're doing - they have the same skill set as you and will use those abilities reactively - for example to take out your weak mages first, so you have to counter and manage the agro for example, as well as engaging in spell battles etc. These enemies do feel like actual living beings and not very gamey.

But you find that those game are able to have those types of things because your actions are limited as well by the combat system. Sacrificing active combat for a turn and dice based mechanic is just simpler overall and enemies react in a similar way to the play because the players actions are also limited by a relatively small moveset.

I would also take dragon age off that list because you can very easily facetank your way through that game even on the harder difficulties. Enemies tend to "react" less in that game and very simply follow normal patterns like "focus high threat targets" that are extremely simple. The only thing I would consider gamey about dark souls is that the enemies do indeed just stand around waiting for you to come fight them, but it isn't like enemies in other games do much else (unless you count skyrim, where they sit on their ass, eat and then sleep while waiting for you to kill them)

 

[TrevHead]

snip

I certainly see the point you are making about boiling a discussion down into us vs them however I feel it's sad that so many ppl automatically see elitism when 9/10 it's only a matter of gaming preference over some that enjoy a new game genre (which Souls is IMO) and those who don't.

However you are right there is a lot of bad blood over this game, which really shouldn't be there, I'll reframe future arguments in Souls threads in a not so binary way.

 

[Vigormortis]

I certainly see the point you are making about boiling a discussion down into us vs them however I feel it's sad that so many ppl automatically see elitism when 9/10 it's only a matter of gaming preference over some that enjoy a new game genre (which Souls is IMO) and those who don't.

However you are right there is a lot of bad blood over this game, which really shouldn't be there, I'll reframe future arguments in Souls threads in a not so binary way.

And I'll be sure to listen to all counter-points offered to my criticisms of something.[footnote]Not that I've ever really NOT listened to them, nor ever not wanted to, but you get what I'm saying.[/footnote]

 

[NerAnima]

In any case, I don't honestly care for Kaathe and the Dark-Stalkers, that Covenant has been nothing but a pain since I started. I'll decide if I want the fire to be lit or not, I'm not having my fate dictated by a snake with "joke teeth and mustache tumors." (I'll be amazed if anyone knows who I'm referencing.)

Of course, it's up to you to decide what do you do in the end.

But the existence of Kaathe, and what he tells you if you do meet him, changes the plot of the game from:
"Meet Frampt, he tells you to reach big bad, kill him, save the world"

to

"Frampt told you to kill Gwyn, but he's (may be) a lying ************. He's on cahoots with Gwyndolyn, and they both want you to unknowinly but willingly sacrifice yourself to keep their own power a little longer. So you may go and kill that freak too, before you actually kill Gwyn anyway, but in this case you liberate humanity from the opression of gods. Whom by the way caused this whole "hollow" mess in order to force humanity to sacrifice their humanity, because that keeps their power going for a little longer, while they try to get some fool to immolate himself. Or not. Maybe it's just Kaathe lying to you. Good luck sucker".

Yeah, doesn't mean I don't still hate Kaathe, but it just means that I can't trust either of those snake....things.

Still, I like a lot of the other characters, even if I have to kill them, and then I feel like a *****...

 

[Skin]

They still feel like robots to me, which breaks the illusion of Lordran and reminds me I'm playing a game.

You are playing a game though... Seems like you just don't like the game and trying to discredit it by using nonsensical arguments.

I honestly feel like this thread should be closed because of the low quality post in the OP. All you did was state an opinion that has almost 0 discussion value.

 

[endtherapture]

They still feel like robots to me, which breaks the illusion of Lordran and reminds me I'm playing a game.

You are playing a game though... Seems like you just don't like the game and trying to discredit it by using nonsensical arguments.

I honestly feel like this thread should be closed because of the low quality post in the OP. All you did was state an opinion that has almost 0 discussion value.

Well it's not a nonsensical argument because it's how I feel. I haven't played an hour of the game, got stuck on the Taurus Demon, and given up, I've got about 30 hours into the game and am at the Demon Ruins right now. The game is supposedly one of the most atmospheric experiences in gaming...but when I got to Anor Londo the whole illusion of Lordran was completely killed for me by how "gamey" that section was and how the enemies and level design was set up.

It's an opinion, and the entire gaming industry revolves around the opinions of people, rather than objective facts. Just cos you're in love with Dark Souls doesn't mean every thread that doesn't praise this game should be closed.

snip

I agree that Dark Souls was a breath of fresh air into the industry but a lot of DS fans do have an elitist attitude about them - "You don't understand this game" "We don't want this game ruined by casuals". I'd hardly say I'm a casual gamer, I mod Skyrim extensively, some of my favourite games are isometric RPGs and Infinity Engine games, and I generally prefer games with thought over spectacle - but a lot of DS fans just accuse you of being stupid if you don't fall in love with the game which is a pretty condescending attitude to have.

 

[TrevHead]

Well it's not a nonsensical argument because it's how I feel. I haven't played an hour of the game, got stuck on the Taurus Demon, and given up, I've got about 30 hours into the game and am at the Demon Ruins right now. The game is supposedly one of the most atmospheric experiences in gaming...but when I got to Anor Londo the whole illusion of Lordran was completely killed for me by how "gamey" that section was and how the enemies and level design was set up.

It's an opinion, and the entire gaming industry revolves around the opinions of people, rather than objective facts. Just cos you're in love with Dark Souls doesn't mean every thread that doesn't praise this game should be closed.

Actually OP I do agree with you somewhat, and you point certainly isn't none nonsensical. While everybody says every AI is like that is correct OFC not every game requires the player to observe the AI's patterns in a "gamey" way, you certainly don't in Skyrim (which you say you mod for) and Bethesda's other WRPG's.

Both games are built for their intended audience Skyrim to me has mostly dumb gameplay and the enemies seem dumb because they aren't "gamey". On the other hand DS1 is right up my street and very gamey it's like playing an old Japanese arcade game or a Treasure boss / Street Fighter 2 where the only way to play is to not be dumb and wail on the enemy, but take a step back, analyse it's patterns and it's AI. It's slow paced combat and it's parry / backstab mechanics enforces. It's totally new to the WRPG genre, more like a MMO or JRPG.

I agree that Dark Souls was a breath of fresh air into the industry but a lot of DS fans do have an elitist attitude about them - "You don't understand this game" "We don't want this game ruined by casuals". I'd hardly say I'm a casual gamer, I mod Skyrim extensively, some of my favourite games are isometric RPGs and Infinity Engine games, and I generally prefer games with thought over spectacle - but a lot of DS fans just accuse you of being stupid if you don't fall in love with the game which is a pretty condescending attitude to have.

I'd ask that you cut some slack to those ppl who say "well duh, every AI has patterns" as I'd guess that many players play other games in the same mindset as DS, I know I did for years when I had my Shmup / arcade gaming hat on (at the time Bethesda's WRPGs were extremely vapid experiences for me, that's why I loath Fallout 3 so much which I played at that time).

While I respect that the "gamey" aspect's of DS1 pulls you out of the immersion, the same can't be said for most of the ppl who love the game. Infact for me it's the very opposite, as the way DS handles difficulty, always keeping me on my toes and analyse enemy AI added to the immersion and what made such a gripping experience. Skyrim on the otherhand I've being playing (1st playthrough) this past 2-3 weeks due to being ill and wanting a game to relax to, while I've spent 100+ hours mostly exploring / side quests the fact that the combat is so uninteresting in a gamey way I can't stand playing it any longer, it's lost it's charm and immersion as all I see is a "dumb game with dumb enemies".

(BTW Sorry if much of this is just going over what I said to your 1st quote, I've being swapping between both sections as I type making a mess out of my train of thought and this post and I'm too lazy to retype it)

To weigh in what you say about the "Souls fanbase" more correctly the more vocal types on this forum like me, I can understand why you'd see the fanbase in such a way, we are a defensive lot however the Souls series is a rare gem to many ppl as it's the only AAA in donkey's years to approach difficulty and the rest of it's game design in such a uncompromising way. A very very important thing for us purist types who have seen game genres and series watered down to suit other demographics. If we had 10 new games to pressed all our buttons like DS did we wouldn't have being so protective, some players don't enjoy modern AAAs and stick to retro only. (imo a point lost on many gamers asking for easy modes etc) The fact that FROM were putting out PR statements like "widening the audience", "going after Skyrim money" and a new director who wants to "streamline and simplify" put the gamers on edge aswell.

Basically it sucks if you like AAA and have very niche and under-represented tastes. Not that any of it should exclude other types of gamers. Also sorry if I've used hardcore / casual in the past, not meant as a put down to non DS fans I just mean the game is very niche and complex just like Eve or LoL. I even call myself a casual gamer who plays hardcore games.