David Cage is one of the worst writers in the industry

[Pixelspeech]

Indigo Prophecy:

As somebody who has played this game, I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with every point you named (Jesus guys, she's a little girl, not the magic conch), but I still find his games somewhat entertaining, even if I do not have a PS3 to play Heavy Rain on. The stories are stupid, but now that I work 9-5 shifts and am just busy in general, it's sometimes fun to just play something that takes 0 effort as long as I press the colored buttons.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I can't speak for Heavy Rain, but Indigo Prophecy was freaking brilliant for the first two thirds.

That's enough for me to dismiss claims of "Worst Writer in the Industry".

I remember when I first played it. The first segment of the game I thought, oh wow, this is going to be really interesting. I love this cool murder mystery and how this is playing out. Then abruptly everything goes off the rails and I wonder if I went off my meds partway through playing or something.

 

[King Billi]

You quoted the wrong guy, so you know. Maphysto is the one who wrote that post.

I know now. Sorry for that.

I'm quite confused actually... How did I even manage that?

 

[Fox12]

Sounds to me like someone just finished watching the last part of Super Best Friends Play Indigo Prophecy.

^_^

Beat me to it : P

Holy cow it was glorious though... I mean, Heavy Rain was bad, but Indigo Prophecy was on a whole other plane.

David Cage has the right idea, but his actual skill is nowhere near his ambition. Naturally he doesn't seem to realize that (or won't admit it) and so his pompous, conceited, self upsessed attitude is still poisoning the atmosphere. Honestly, he paints himself as the Messiah of the game industry.

 

[debtcollector]

I've already posted in another thread, directly in response to the OP's apparent vendetta against David Cage, who I suspect stole his high school girlfriend or something. There's really nothing I can say to change his mind, as he's pretty clearly completely absorbed in his own opinion and unwilling to accept that other people have different opinions from him.

So I'm going to say this: pointing out plotholes in movies, games, books or really any medium does not make you inherently better than it. Plotholes are things that inevitably happen if you scrutinize a work of fiction closely enough. They can be found just about anywhere, from The Lord of the Rings to Inception. In the same vein, the existence of plot holes do not immediately devalue a work of fiction. For example, the classic LotR plothole is the "Why didn't the Fellowship just ride the Eagles to Mordor?" argument. Regardless of what the answer is, (and the fact remains that the answer is a pretty shitty cop-out) does the fact that this was an unconsidered option devalue the entire series?

Movies and games especially are intended to be experienced moment-to-moment, and so it's difficult to notice plotholes until after you have finished experiencing them. If you notice the plotholes as they happen, then either they are particularly egregious or you weren't really immersed in the experience at all. If the latter, whatever, that's fine, play games how you want.

The "plotholes" you suggest (at least for Heavy Rain, as I can't testify for or against Indigo Prophecy's writing) are trivial matters. You question character motivations that may seem irrational from the standpoint of an observer, but are really incredibly common behaviors in similar stories. The double-bluffs, the love interest, the rogue cop who believes in you--come now. Do not stand there, throwing these tropes at us and demand that we accept them as proof of David Cage's failure as a human being. You are being petty.

The more I look at the original post, the more I cannot imagine that it was written with any seriousness. It stinks of narrow-mindedness, of a dogged need to convince yourself and everyone else that your opinion is correct, despite the absolute minimum effort you put forth into formulating it. And then you have the gall to dismiss everyone else's opinion as "WRONG" and even have some half-assed conclusion that contradicts your entire point and shatters your credibility ("sure there are much worse stories, but those are in games in which story is an afterthought, and I like those games, and don't like Cage's and that's why they suck").

So here is my suggestion. Go outside, take a look at something that isn't the Internet or a video game, or anything on a screen really. Take a moment to appreciate the fact that you are, in fact, alive. When you've calmed down, maybe you'll remember that David Cage didn't actually kill your family, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself he did.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

So, since Beyond Two Souls is coming out people have been talking a lot about David Cage's other two games, Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain.

I'm sorry for nitpicking, but he's had at least three games before Beyond. Before Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy was Omikron: The Nomad Soul. You can get it from GOG if you want to see if it's better than the other two.

Ah yes, you're right. I always forget about Omikron because I never actually played it since I didn't own a dreamcast, and I didn't really get into PC gaming until 2007.

 

[FPLOON]

This thread made me realize that I have no idea what Beyond Two Souls is. I read the title and my brain begins uploading images of Dark Souls II.

This thread made me picture both Ellen Page and William DaFoe's characters having sex with one another during one of Ellen Page's character's flashback sequences... (I need some soap to go with my bleach, please...)

OT: *confused* Okay... I'm not going to hate David Cage because you tell me to... *goes tsundere for a second* I'll just won't like his writing or game design... Although, while playing through Heavy Rain, I actually never cared for the plot at all... and that rarely happens when playing any video game period... (You got to give David Cage some props right there, right?)

captcha: be my friend
Aw... That's so sweet, captcha... Of course we can be friends... (Just don't have sex with me and immediately fall in love with me afterwards, okay?)

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

I've already posted in another thread, directly in response the OP's apparent vendetta against David Cage, who I suspect stole his high school girlfriend or something. There's really nothing I can say to change his mind, as he's pretty clearly completely absorbed in his own opinion and unwilling to accept that other people have different opinions from him.

So I'm going to say this: pointing out plotholes in movies, games, books or really any medium does not make you inherently better than it. Plotholes are things that inevitably happen if you scrutinize a work of fiction closely enough. They can be found just about anywhere, from The Lord of the Rings to Inception. In the same vein, the existence of plot holes do not immediately devalue a work of fiction. For example, the classic LotR plothole is the "Why didn't the Fellowship just ride the Eagles to Mordor?" argument. Regardless of what the answer is, (and the fact remains that the answer is a pretty shitty cop-out) does the fact that this was an unconsidered option devalue the entire series?

Movies and games especially are intended to be experienced moment-to-moment, and so it's difficult to notice plotholes until after you have finished experiencing them. If you notice the plotholes as they happen, then either they are particularly egregious or you weren't really immersed in the experience at all. If the latter, whatever, that's fine, play games how you want.

The "plotholes" you suggest (at least for Heavy Rain, as I can't testify for or against Indigo Prophecy's writing) are trivial matters. You question character motivations that may seem irrational from the standpoint of an observer, but are really incredibly common behaviors in similar stories. The double-bluffs, the love interest, the rogue cop who believes in you--come now. Do not stand there, throwing these tropes at us and demand that we accept them as proof of David Cage's failure as a human being. You are being petty.

The more I look at the original post, the more I cannot imagine that it was written with any seriousness. It stinks of narrow-mindedness, of a dogged need to convince yourself and everyone else that your opinion is correct, despite the absolute minimum effort you put forth into formulating it. And then you have the gall to dismiss everyone else's opinion as "WRONG" and even have some half-assed conclusion that contradicts your entire point and shatters your credibility ("sure there are much worse stories, but those are in games in which story is an afterthought, and I like those games, and don't like Cage's and that's why they suck").

So here is my suggestion. Go outside, take a look at something that isn't the Internet or a video game, or anything on a screen really. Take a moment to appreciate the fact that you are, in fact, alive. When you've calmed down, maybe you'll remember that David Cage didn't actually kill your family, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself he did.

You know what? I second this. If only for the points about plot holes in writing that were brought up, and not for the bits that get a little... personal. I really don't know the OP's posting history regarding his "vendetta" against Mr. Cage, but it would have to be quite colorful to deserve this kind of dressing down.

 

[lacktheknack]

I can't speak for Heavy Rain, but Indigo Prophecy was freaking brilliant for the first two thirds.

That's enough for me to dismiss claims of "Worst Writer in the Industry".

I remember when I first played it. The first segment of the game I thought, oh wow, this is going to be really interesting. I love this cool murder mystery and how this is playing out. Then abruptly everything goes off the rails and I wonder if I went off my meds partway through playing or something.

Yep. Most of the complaints leveled against Indigo Prophecy happen in the last third, so when it gets to the "Rescue Your Ex" section, turn it off and imagine the rest of the story yourself, and suddenly it's a pretty cool game.

 

[captainballsack]

I don't like Cage because he thinks the "art" of games lies in its story telling ability, then uses Ueda to back him up on it.

Shadow of the Colossus is an artistic masterpiece because it perfectly blends story, art style and game mechanics thematically. Themes of isolation, patience, loss and utilitarianism all occur simultaneously through minimalistic story/art/game design; everything in that game flows and complements itself to leave you with a literary experience that can only be accomplished through the interactive medium. Same goes for Ico; the game mechanics reflect the story and the story reflects the game mechanics equally to create something wholesome and beautiful. When you wrap that up in an art style that ALSO reflects what themes the gameplay and narrative are trying to convey, you're left with a masterpiece.

Heavy Rain throws gameplay out the window. What is artistic about Heavy Rain is what is artistic about a Visual Novel, not a game. The minimal amounts of "game" is what dilutes and distracts the Heavy Rain experience from being what it should be: an interactive, choose your own adventure book.

He envisions the future of games being one without actual gameplay, when if he truly hoped to master the art in the way Ueda and Team Ico have, he would be looking at how well he can blend everything fundamental in game design, game art and game narrative to produce something that communicates his literary themes wholesomely.

Games ARE art, but games aren't VNs. What is artistic about a game isn't what Cage envisions it is, and that is why I don't think he can produce great games.

 

[Maphysto]

Being a hack is not unique.

And Dirty Hipsters didn't say "HE'S SHIT BECAUSE I SAID SO", he outlined very clear reasons why he's a bad writer.

...

Let me be clear about one thing. When we say that David Cage is a bad writer, we are not expressing opinions, we are stating facts. He is objectively a bad writer, with little to no grasp of how a story should be structured or told to his audience. He is, furthermore, an objectively bad game designer. He doesn't want to make games for people to play, he wants to make movies for them to watch. But since his egregious lack of talent means he'll never get a job in movies or TV, he's had to settle for making 3-hour long cutscenes broken up by the barest concessions to gameplay he can get away with.

Please don't take our criticisms of him and his games as some sort of order that you should stop liking him. You're allowed to like whatever the fuck you want. But you need to man up to the fact that his games and writing are bad, and if you like them, you probably have bad taste. And if you're so thin-skinned that you can't read criticisms of something you like without throwing a tantrum, you should probably consider getting off the internet. it's not a very fun place for people that can't take some flak.

Okay I think I understand now.

"HE'S **** BECAUSE I USED THE WORD OBJECTIVELY A FEW TIMES"

"It's okay though you can like his **** games if you want to, you just have admit you're a moron with bad taste if you do."

"Also if you dare to disagree then you obviously can't handle criticism and are just throwing a tantrum"

By the way this is what constitutes "Throwing a tantrum" now.

Yeah he's not the greatest at what he does, but what he does is certainly unique, and that can be enough for some people.

Listen man, some people will like things that you don't, is that really so hard to accept?

Hit my post a little harder, I still see some straw sticking out.

I take no issue with people liking things I don't. I take MASSIVE issue with people behaving as if their approval of a thing means it is above all criticism, and that anyone who would ever dare to speak ill of the thing they like are wrong by default.

And disagreeing with criticism doesn't mean you're throwing a tantrum. Sarcastically misrepresenting your opposition's arguments without providing a coherent counter-argument, however, is hardly in the realm of maturity. I notice that you haven't actually made any attempts to refute the criticisms made against Cage. Would you like to do so, or would you prefer to continue saying "I know you are, but what am I?"

 

[lapan]

Games ARE art, but games aren't VNs. What is artistic about a game isn't what Cage envisions it is, and that is why I don't think he can produce great games.

Cinematic games do have their place. However if you try to turn every game into one of them or vice-versa, that's where i draw my line.

 

[Casual Shinji]

You can lambast David Cage all you like, but if there's one thing you should refrain from doing it's telling people they shouldn't like what they like. That's just all kinds of silly.

And yeah, David Cage is a horrible writer and game developer, but in a sense that has become it's own form of entertainment. For me anyway. Cage doesn't realize it himself, but he's actually a master at crafting Naked Gun-esque comedy games. I didn't notice this untill I played the demo for Beyond: Two Souls, and laughed my ass off through the whole thing. And now I'm seriously anticipating the barrel of laughs that is the full game.

 

[leodetroit]

I don't want to defend David Cage, but calling him one of the worst writers in the industry is pretty weird. I mean you are comparing him to writing something like Battlefield, COD, Elder Scrolls, just cause and other really, really weak plots. He's not good, but he isn't the worst that the industry has to offer.

 

[Savo]

One of the worst? Hardly. The man can write quite well on occasion, it's just that his stories have an obnoxious tendency to fly out of control halfway through. He has a great mind for coming up with compelling premises, his use of atmosphere is often excellent, and there are fantastic individual scenes spread throughout his work, it's just that he can't pull it all together into a coherent whole.

He's one of those writers that has tons of potential but wastes a lot of it. I seriously feel that if he had a strict editor or co-writer of some sort to reign in his self-destructive tendencies when it comes to his writing, we might have a pretty damn good storyteller on our hands. I enjoy his games, but I always feel like they could have been so much more if more careful thought were put into them. I hope so badly that Beyond breaks this trend, but the commercial I last saw for it wasn't making me hopeful.

 

[Cybylt]

I can't speak for Heavy Rain, but Indigo Prophecy was freaking brilliant for the first two thirds.

That's enough for me to dismiss claims of "Worst Writer in the Industry".

That's sort of how all of the games his team has made so far go. Hell he wanted to go all out on supernatural elements in in Heavy Rain as well with the protagonist being psychically linked to the killer but it was shut down and he still got the blackouts into it.

The reaction to a Cage game at the various points is typically:

Within Hour One "Huh, this could get pretty interesting."

Hour Two "Oh shit this is getting intense."

Hour Three "What... what the fuck?"

I have no real problem with what he does since he and his team are still capable of making games that can pull people in but I wish the guy would get off his own dick with that talk of emotional games and gameplay more or less being directly linked to graphical fidelity.

And I guess to contribute to the list of plot holes:

Ethan of Heavy Rain is suspected as the killer due to trauma from his son's death two years ago. The Origami killer started his work a year prior to that and he was in a coma for several months during which other killings occurred.

Madison reacts in shock upon hearing the name of the killer. A name that has never been mentioned in her presence before nor a person she's ever met. That's a straight up red herring making you think Ethan could be the killer.

Madison has the personal phone number of Naahmin Jayyydin, who she had never met before as far as I can remember.

Not a plot hole but an annoyance, the cops of this world are all terrible terrible people and due process is nonexistent.

Madison and Ethan's romance and sexual relationship coming up after knowing each other for very little time and the sex scene coming up after the man had crawled through glass and been horribly electrocuted.

Also the lack of possibility of any character potentially being the killer, instead being a strictly linear game where most of the QTEs fix themselves so you can get right back on track to seeing the one ending.

 

[Adultism]

Jeez, so much troll bait in here its hard to sift through.

I'm going to just my honest opinion and say I enjoyed both of those games as I played them, but I can clearly see all the anger and hatred over a GAME has taken over you guys so I'll just leave this here. I should also add we hate and like the game for different reasons but I feel like saying someone is a bad writer is your opinion and you are not a huge important figure in this world so shhhh and V

Spoiler

 

[RubyTuesdays]

On a similar note, am I one of the last people alive who really wasn't impressed with Half-Life 2's story? And thought Half-Life's simpler story actually worked out better? And that Lamar the Pet Headcrab contributed to more of the overall plot than Alyx Vance, who came off as a complete stalker the way she kept popping up over and over again, despite being pretty much an ordinary citizen?

At least it was fun and had gameplay consisting of more than just button prompts.