David Cage is one of the worst writers in the industry

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LegendaryVKickr

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Cyberbob87 said:
I quite liked Fahrenheit (as it was called over here, no idea why they had a name change to Indigo Prophesy in the USA), it certainly wasn't the best written game ever, but not the worst either. The plot held along reasonably nicely until the final chapter or so. I'm quite a fan of Quantic Dream games. Omnikron was pretty amazing, if completely flawed at the same time. I like how ambitious and different games by Cage are. They don't hit the mark all the time, but I'm happy to indulge because it's so different from the usual blandness.
Really? Maybe it's just because I watched it via TheSw1tcher on Youtube, but I was so confused by the story I gave up trying to follow it at all.

Anyways, even the parts that were just bad storyline, were so laughably bad it made me question if David Cage has ever written anything beyond bad fanfiction. "I love you Lucas" says Carla to a man who's a prime suspect in a murder case, who she met only a few moments ago and believes his story of Mayan conspiracy for no reason.
 

Last Hugh Alive

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I haven't played any of David Cage's games but I watched Lets Plays for both of them, Two Best Friends Play incidentally.

I can't comment on how Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain actually play but I do agree Cage isn't a particularly good writer. This may not be a big deal but I think Matt and Patt made a great point in the end credits when they said now that we have games like The Walking Dead which used the same formula and succeeded so well, and other story/conversation focused games like Mass Effect that prove it can work, David Cage comes off as even more of an outclassed hack in comparison.

Again I haven't actually touched Cage's games but to me his problem is that he relies on magic and other unexplained nonsense to fill in the gaps.
 

Raggedstar

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I'm not a huge fan of Heavy Rain or Indigo Prophecy. Heavy Rain I can commend for being more coherent with some neat set-pieces (ok, the trials I admit were really bloody intense), while Indigo Prophecy I can't take seriously.

Carla: Hey, it's -50 F outside, the world is dying, we're in a subway tunnel in the company of the great legion of world-protecting hobos, and I tried to kill you on more than one occasion. Let's have sex!
Lucas: My girlfriend just died and I'm really sad but ok! :D
(well, that and the whole Simon Says QTE setup the game has. It's a bit of a disconnect for me that I feel Heavy Rain handled much better)

Is that...how sex works? I've never had it so I don't know. 0-0

David Cage himself I'm not a fan of either. Yes, there's that "emotions = polygons" thing (as well as myself being more a fan of stylization over his extreme photorealism that now and again dips into the uncanny valley, but that's my own taste) and the comparisons to movies to games, but I don't heckle those who do like him. Whatever, he can have his niche. I just don't like placing him or his games on pedestals as the pinnacle of storytelling (I know a dude who thinks so and said Heavy Rain had ZERO plot holes despite everyone in the chat listing them. "What? Naw"). Are there worse stories in games? You bet. Are there better ones? Definitely.
 

DarklordKyo

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Dirty Hipsters said:
DarklordKyo said:
Dirty Hipsters said:
So, since Beyond Two Souls is coming out people have been talking a lot about David Cage's other two games, Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain.
I'm sorry for nitpicking, but he's had at least three games before Beyond. Before Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy was Omikron: The Nomad Soul. You can get it from GOG if you want to see if it's better than the other two.
Ah yes, you're right. I always forget about Omikron because I never actually played it since I didn't own a dreamcast, and I didn't really get into PC gaming until 2007.
Well, here's the link if you want to give it a shot: http://www.gog.com/game/omikron_the_nomad_soul
 

Shuu

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Some of those plot holes you point out a little petty, but I agree with you that the guy's not really anything special. Quantic Dream as a whole are admirable in their technical skills, even if they tumble straight into the uncanny valley, somebody has to if we're ever to reach the other side. But I think we'd get such better games from them if they ditched Cage. I don't buy the idea that he's just a frustrated film maker who turned to games cuz he didn't have the right stuff. No, when he says what he wants to do he can only do in this medium, I believe him, but that doesn't means he's any good at it.

I think Quantic dream has loads of potential, but with Cage at the wheel... well... I consider it no coincidence that I never thought much of any of their games and yet they did make my favourite short film in the form of Kara. No, that's not a coincidence.

All that said, I still play their games, cuz the are pretty unique, but that is starting to wear thin. Uniqueness only gets you so far, and eventually I start asking for their games to be both unique and good, and that's when I start to think about giving Beyond Two Souls a miss.
It'd be nice if there was enough of that auteur driven madness in the industry that we didn't need to turn to Cage to get our fill.

It's important to keep a level head is all. Uniqueness isn't a one-size-fits-all excuse for short comings in quality. I've played Omikron, it was not great but utterly unique, I played Indigo Prophecy, it was not great, but utterly unique, I played Heavy Rain, I was not that great but again, utterly unique. So I've had my fill of uniqueness now Cage, unique isn't enough for me anymore, I'd like for your next game to be both great in terms of ideas AND in execution. That's all.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Shuu said:
Some of those plot holes you point out a little petty, but I agree with you that the guy's not really anything special.
Which ones are petty? Feel free to point them out to me, and I'll explain why they're actually important to notice for how utterly bizarre they are.
 

Shuu

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Dirty Hipsters said:
Shuu said:
Some of those plot holes you point out a little petty, but I agree with you that the guy's not really anything special.
Which ones are petty? Feel free to point them out to me, and I'll explain why they're actually important to notice for how utterly bizarre they are.
Off the top of my head (sorry, time's short;D) Shelby being too fat to set up the trial of Ethan. I was happy to say to myself "well if it was any kind of important to him, he'd have found a way..." it's not really a plot "hole" per se, perhaps just a bit of laziness in the writing, rather than an inconsistency.
I can understand your issue with it, but for me it seems like one of those questions that can be reasonably answered with "because otherwise there wouldn't be a story"
I do however agree in the sense that it feels like they were temporarily ignored logic just so they could continue to keep the killer's face blank and their identity a complete mystery. Kind of like "Hey, that's cheating!"
I just don't think it's a huge plot hole, at least compared to the others you raised.

The one that pissed me off was the huge massacre he just walked away from with no consequences. Nobody had to even point that out to me, I just put down the controller afterwards like "...ARE WE JUST NOT GONNA TALK ABOUT THAT?!"
 

Waaghpowa

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Indigo Prophecy was so hilariously bad I instantly fell in love with it. The end where

The protagonist starts doing Neo/Goku degrees of kung fu fighting in the air was absolutely brilliant
 

Ryan Hughes

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Specter Von Baren said:
I think the opinion of him being the worst is really more in the context of "Worst person that's actually trying." Even then there's probably worse examples but I do believe there's a difference between something like Duke Nukem, that I don't think anyone can claim was an attempt at good storytelling, and something like Heavy Rain which is trying to be mature and deep.
Then I would nominate the Call of Duty games for that place. The fact that they hired the writer of "Traffic" to write Ghosts is proof that they take themselves seriously as a narrative force, and I think they have been trying quite hard this whole while, at least since CoD 4: Modern Warfare, a game I found to be shallow and manipulative, as well as generally bad.

I am not trying to really defend Cage. He likely deserves the lambasting he gets, but I still feel there are worse writers out there that are far more harmful to the overall state of games.
 

Norrdicus

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Mcoffey said:
Compared to movie and television screen writers he's not very good, no. Compared to almost every other instance of writing in video games, he's Martin Fucking Scorsese.
So every single half-decent adventure game writer is an unparallelled genius.

Joshua Nuernberger is video games' Alfred Hitchcock
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Norrdicus said:
Mcoffey said:
Compared to movie and television screen writers he's not very good, no. Compared to almost every other instance of writing in video games, he's Martin Fucking Scorsese.
So every single half-decent adventure game writer is an unparallelled genius.

Joshua Nuernberger is video games' Alfred Hitchcock
What's funny is that Scorsese hasn't done screenwriting in twenty years. And the thing is I can point to TONS of writers like the guys at Bioware, Tim Schafer, Ron Gilbert, Obsidian, inXile, Harebrained Schemes, Yasumi Matsuno, Hironobu Sakaguchi, Tetsuya Takahashi, Daisuke Ishiwatari, Toshimichi Mori, etc who write CIRCLES around Cage. It's kind of fascinating at how a lot of gamers and especially the press try to rewrite history as though we haven't had any good stories EVER in gaming.
 

Brown Cap

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(Heavy Rain)

1.) He has blackouts because he slipped into a 6-month coma after trying to save Jason (and subsequently getting hit by a car). In the words of Dupre, the psychologist, nobody knows the effect on the mind that such trauma could have. This is how why he gets the blackouts. Granted, the origami figures may be harder to explain - but I think the fact that his blackouts are caused by severe mental trauma is a good enough explanation.

2.)Who are you to say Madison can't fall in love with someone for whatever reason? The human pysche is pretty fucked up and unpredictable as it is. I think it's a little unfair to say "You can't fall in love with this person because X or Y." That's like saying you can't like water because it's tasteless.

3.) You said yourself that the only evidence that the police have against Ethan is the fact of his blackouts. That's not reason enough to arrest him, right? That's what Jayden believes. Furthermore, Jayden has been gathering evidence throughout the game that, although it may only lead to theories (or eventually to Scott, if the game was played in such a way) he judges that it simply cannot be Ethan, and so he helps him. Not to mention that he has been entertaining the idea of bringing Blake down, who may or may not be thought to be the killer, AND is simply a spiteful antagonist nonetheless.

4.)He's smart. He needed it to look like a real crime scene - if he weren't the killer, there would likely have been a struggle between him and the older gentleman. There are many reasons why the police would be called: The gentleman, during the struggle, may have dialed 911 (not the case, obviously). And furthermore, the killer would want to frame someone so as not to get caught (if the killer were not Scott). He's trying, and succeeding, to convince Lauren (and us) that he is not the killer.

5.) If he killed everyone, including Kramer, who would be there to know he was the culprit? If he didn't kill Kramer, don't you think he would be thankful enough not to call the police on him? Remember - Shelby was an ex-cop. The police might need some considerable evidence against him to arrest him. Furthermore - Kramer tried to murder Shelby - that's the whole reason he went there - do you think he really wants to explain why there was a crazed gunman in his house?

6.) You have a good argument here. I don't know how to defend this one.

I think you were a little upset when you wrote this: Consider some of these points. I think the game has more logic than you believe. Nonetheless, this is just my thoughts. I do love the game. I think it's a little harsh to say "YOU ARE WRONG" for thinking that the game has good storytelling.
 

II2

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In defense of emotions:

I think his weaknesses as a creative director and writer could be forgiven more easily if he wasn't so damn smug about them. Kinda smacks of 'real art is immune to criticism' while the rest of gaming less than art. That said, let him keep making what he makes. It's different, at least. If he hits anything truly worthwhile, better qualified people will incorporate the ideas into more accessible formats.
 

sc1arr1

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I'm not in the wrong just because I like what he does. I think he's a great writer and so what if the games are "interactive movies" I kind of think of them as high end point and click style adventure games.
 

l3o2828

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No he is not.
Nintendo and Capcom as a whole take the spot for worst writers around.
David Cage is simply mediocre, but he is amusing in his meiocrity like Dan Brown.

Also NA NA NA I STILL LIKE HIM EVEN IF YOU SAY WE SHOULDN'T I HOPE YOU DONT FEEL TOO BAD ABOUT IT.
 

00slash00

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"Stop liking things I don't like!!!"

Seriously, why do you care? It's not like he's flooding the market with his games, he only has a few that I'm aware of. If you don't like his games then just don't play them. There's no reason to try and convince people to not like David Cage just because you don't. Seems pretty arrogant to tell people they're wrong for enjoying something.
 

EyeReaper

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So, he's a bad writer, and that means he's un-enjoyable? I guess the OP has never heard of a b-movie and from what I've heard/read of Indigo Prophecy (unfortunately never played the game myself, I want to, blame my "bad taste") this guy is definitely a b-movie writer.

Remember, just repeat to yourself "it's just a game, I should really just relax"
 

Weaver

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Icehearted said:
In an industry of awful writing, none of this comes as news to me. I've never played a video game with a story as good as even the worst books I've read, which isn't to say I've read many bad books. Comparably, the writing is very formulaic, derivative, poorly executed when compared to storytelling in other media. This is where I get conflicted personally, because the story is part of the game play in certain games and even genres, but at the same time, the game play or the story in and of themselves are often not enough to be at all self-0sustaining, thus the two work together to offset the poorest aspects of one another.

I could, just as easily, point out that without heavy personal interpretation, every Final Fantasy game has a story that's at least as bad as any of Cage's games. In fact pretty much all of them are bad. The best of them, in my opinion, Planescape Torment, really succeeded not because of it's story, but because of it's story combined with atmosphere, and the mythos it set up, all of which helped to offset what was otherwise kind of predictable, though certainly not as campy as a lot of JRPGs such as Final Fantasy.

Incidentally, this reminds me of when I first read up on the "Squall is dead" idea, and had that in fact been the true intention, had that in fact really been the case according the the game's writing team, it would have been, for me anyway, a stroke of genius. Unfortunately, as is often the case, the line between awesome and awful is hair thin,and this broke awesome and made awful it's mantra.

I digress.

David Cage is hardly the worst, he's not even below mediocre compared to others. Even Fahrenheit was better than most Final Fantasy, Black Isle, Bethesda games out there, sheerly on it's atmosphere and themes, even if the game lost it's mind around the final act. Likewise I want to point out that I actually enjoy his more contemporary if not stranger works. I thought Heavy Rain was just this side of silly, but at least it had some fairly good moments, and some reveals that had me thinking. I really enjoyed Omikron as well, again because it had more to it that a bland or bad story, and while it's parts were not so great, the sum of it's parts were actually not too bad if you went into it with the right sort of mindset, which is another way of saying keeping your expectations low and your mind open.
I absolutely agree. If someone thinks Cage is the worst writer they've likely not played, or at least examined the writing/plot/story of most games out there. Even the ones where story is a major focus.

Personally, I'm just glad to play a game now-a-days that isn't a 3rd person shooter.