David Cage is one of the worst writers in the industry

[LordLundar]

Eh, the best definition I've seen of Cage is that he's one of the top movie directors in the gaming industry.

Basically, if he wants to be in the film industry, fine, I'm sure he would fare well in there. But game development is a far different beast and trying to make a movie as a game is hampering his skills, not helping them.

 

[Your Fearless Captain]

I still had loads of fun with Indigo Prophesy. You and your logic can't take that from me.

 

[Sepko]

I already made a post in a different thread calling David Cage poison, so I'm right there with you.

"Poison" implies he's somehow detrimental to the video game industry as a whole. The guy has literally three games, I'd actually be impressed if he had that kind of influence.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

Full disclosure: I did not finish Heavy Rain. I was not impressed much by the game. I did not play Indigo Prophesy.

First. I find Cage to be uninspired and uninspiring, but don't you think it is hyperbole to say he is one of the worst? Particularly in an industry that has actually released games like Duke Nukem Forever, Ride to Hell, Call of Duty, etc etc.

I mean, plot holes are bad, sure, but blatant misogyny, insipid faux-rebellion, and what could amount to pro-war propaganda if the writers even had the slightest amount of skill are certainly worse, aren't they? I see what you are saying about Heavy Rain, but plot holes are not the be-all end-all of writing. Intending to communicate insipid or stupid ideas to the player from the beginning is much worse.

Who knows? maybe over time Cage could get better and fix those plot holes he leaves lying around? But someone who simply does not even try is not worthy of any respect.

 

[DarklordKyo]

So, since Beyond Two Souls is coming out people have been talking a lot about David Cage's other two games, Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain.

I'm sorry for nitpicking, but he's had at least three games before Beyond. Before Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy was Omikron: The Nomad Soul. You can get it from GOG if you want to see if it's better than the other two.

 

[Branindain]

Well the only Cage game I've ever played was Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy to northerners). I enjoyed it as something unique at the time, but was then soured on the experience by the comically awful multiple endings (random aliens/cyborgs because reasons). Never came back to him after that, and if I try Two Souls it will be for Ellen Paige and Miniature Fantasy Willem Dafoe, not Cage.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

Full disclosure: I did not finish Heavy Rain. I was not impressed much by the game. I did not play Indigo Prophesy.

First. I find Cage to be uninspired and uninspiring, but don't you think it is hyperbole to say he is one of the worst? Particularly in an industry that has actually released games like Duke Nukem Forever, Ride to Hell, Call of Duty, etc etc.

I mean, plot holes are bad, sure, but blatant misogyny, insipid faux-rebellion, and what could amount to pro-war propaganda if the writers even had the slightest amount of skill are certainly worse, aren't they? I see what you are saying about Heavy Rain, but plot holes are not the be-all end-all of writing. Intending to communicate insipid or stupid ideas to the player from the beginning is much worse.

Who knows? maybe over time Cage could get better and fix those plot holes he leaves lying around? But someone who simply does not even try is not worthy of any respect.

The problem is that Cage is so damn vocal and prominent; it's hard NOT to categorize a guy into "worst ever" when everyone gives him so much attention. Sure, he's not as bad as the aforementioned DNF, CoD, etc, BUT he's so damn insistent on his beloved scripts and yet can't really write worth a damn. The other three were silly as hell but Cage tries to be "serious" and comes off as a joke. Furthermore his current career trajectory also shows another habit of hack writers: the lack of improvement. He hasn't shown any signs of actually getting better as a writer which means he doesn't SEEK to improve himself. It's more of an example of how low standards for narratives in games are in that we think some douchebag acting pretentious is somehow great writing because he's doing shlocky thriller attempts rather than fanasy or sci-fi.

 

[Maphysto]

In the case of people thinking that the games are good, they always point to the stories, and talk about how engaging and emotional they are, and how they're well written.

Those people are WRONG.

--//--

Stop defending his games.

"DON'T LIKE DAVID CAGE BECAUSE HE'S SHIT BECAUSE I SAID SO"

Yeah he's not the greatest at what he does, but what he does is certainly unique, and that can be enough for some people.

Being a hack is not unique.

And Dirty Hipsters didn't say "HE'S SHIT BECAUSE I SAID SO", he outlined very clear reasons why he's a bad writer.

In fact, I'll go one further from some of the examples he provided for Indigo Prophecy:

For starters, the plot is schizophrenic as fuck. First it's a gritty, realistic suspense/murder mystery with mild supernatural elements. Then it's a series of action sequences that wish they could be The Matrix, fueled by QTE's. THEN ALIENS AND EVIL COMPUTERS AND ZOMBIES AND WARGHRABVALK

Why exactly was any of this necessary? Why couldn't it have stayed a gritty murder mystery? I'll tell you why: because David Cage is a bad writer who basically looked at his DVD collection and said "Yeah, I'll take a little of that one, some of that, three of those..."

Secondly, so much of the "plot" is pointless fucking around. Tell me, what exactly did the basketball scene accomplish in the narrative? Did it bring Carla and Tyler closer to finding the killer, or Lukas closer to finding out what was happening to him? No. It was a pointless aside that did nothing to advance to story or develop any of the characters. The same thing goes for Carla and Tyler's sparring match. The absolute worst example of this was the library scene, wherein you had to do a fucking asinine fetch quest for a racist caricature of a Chinese man that does absolutely NOTHING for the story at all. Hell, you can even choose to walk out of the library without doing it, and it has zero effect on the story.

Thirdly, the "gameplay" elements can't even decide what genre they want to be in. First it's an adventure game with dialogue trees and investigative elements, then it's a horror game, then a stealth game. Elements like Carla's CLAUSTROPHIBIC BREATH-O-METER (tm) were used once or twice and then dropped, the stealth segments were shoehorned into flashbacks which serve only to explain how Lukas got his bullshit Neo powers, and the rest of the game is nothing but dialogue and QTE's. Pick a genre and stick to it, David.

In summary, let me be clear about one thing. When we say that David Cage is a bad writer, we are not expressing opinions, we are stating facts. He is objectively a bad writer, with little to no grasp of how a story should be structured or told to his audience. He is, furthermore, an objectively bad game designer. He doesn't want to make games for people to play, he wants to make movies for them to watch. But since his egregious lack of talent means he'll never get a job in movies or TV, he's had to settle for making 3-hour long cutscenes broken up by the barest concessions to gameplay he can get away with.

Please don't take our criticisms of him and his games as some sort of order that you should stop liking him. You're allowed to like whatever the fuck you want. But you need to man up to the fact that his games and writing are bad, and if you like them, you probably have bad taste. And if you're so thin-skinned that you can't read criticisms of something you like without throwing a tantrum, you should probably consider getting off the internet. it's not a very fun place for people that can't take some flak.

 

[Compatriot Block]

I already made a post in a different thread calling David Cage poison, so I'm right there with you.

"Poison" implies he's somehow detrimental to the video game industry as a whole. The guy has literally three games, I'd actually be impressed if he had that kind of influence.

He's poison to the games he is involved with. I can't make any claims about the rest of the industry, or I would have written a much longer and angrier post.

Trust me, I think that the best part of David Cage is that he's only been involved in three games. His ego far outweighs any of his contributions.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/113362-Heavy-Rain-Creator-The-U-S-Has-Problems-With-My-Games

 

[The_Echo]

The reason for this thread is the fact that Beyond Two Souls is being released, and there are already threads about it on the escapist.

... Here's how that sounds to me:

"A game being made by a guy I don't like is coming out, so let me spew liquid vitriol preemptively in hopes to stem any discussion about said game, because I don't want to see that."

Fuck man. That's just not cool.

No, David Cage isn't the be-all-end-all of video game storytelling and writing. Yeah, his plots aren't rock solid and the acting in his games isn't super stellar. But the atmosphere and world-building is great, the gameplay is unique. And that's something that can't be said very often these days. Cage's games are unique. And that uniqueness makes up for a lot.

Y'know, flawed as he is, I'd really like the industry to have more David Cages, and less Bobby Koticks.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

The problem is that Cage is so damn vocal and prominent; it's hard NOT to categorize a guy into "worst ever" when everyone gives him so much attention. Sure, he's not as bad as the aforementioned DNF, CoD, etc, BUT he's so damn insistent on his beloved scripts and yet can't really write worth a damn. The other three were silly as hell but Cage tries to be "serious" and comes off as a joke. Furthermore his current career trajectory also shows another habit of hack writers: the lack of improvement. He hasn't shown any signs of actually getting better as a writer which means he doesn't SEEK to improve himself. It's more of an example of how low standards for narratives in games are in that we think some douchebag acting pretentious is somehow great writing because he's doing shlocky thriller attempts rather than fanasy or sci-fi.

True enough. Pretentiousness adds a whole other level of awful on top of poor writing. And you are probably right to say that this arrogance will preclude any real improvement, and he will continue on writing as he is now. But still, I actually think CoD takes itself just as seriously as Cage does. I mean they hired a Hollywood writer for Ghosts, and we will see how that may change things, but that act alone proves that they see themselves as a narrative leader in the industry.

Do not get me wrong, I can really love B-movie level writing. Writing that knows it is not serious, and just tries to have fun with the subject matter. But, the problem with many games is they see this as carte blanche to write truly stupid and even hurtful things. Resident Evil is good B-movie writing. Duke Nukem just came off as vicious and intentionally callous.

I suppose we could argue the semantics and finer points, but I would at least take a pretentious jerk over a violent neanderthal any day.

 

[lacktheknack]

I can't speak for Heavy Rain, but Indigo Prophecy was freaking brilliant for the first two thirds.

That's enough for me to dismiss claims of "Worst Writer in the Industry".

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

Jonathan Blow is an asshole. That's right, Jonathan Blow.

I don't think I could stand to be in the same room as him. He seems to be under the impression that his ideas and preferred design style are the only way video games should be made. He's wrong. However that doesn't mean I won't admit he contributes to the industry very unique intellectual properties that I rarely see in the rest of the medium. No, I don't care about what Jonathan Blow has to say about games, but I do like Braid. And that's enough to defend his presence in the gaming industry.

And here's where the point of that little tangent on Blow comes into play: the same goes for David Cage. I could care less if he thinks games should be more like movies or whatever issue people seem to have with him, the point is that I really don't see anything like Heavy Rain out on the market. The point is he contributes his own style of interactive media to the entire medium as a whole.

I don't care about what David Cage has to say about games, but I do like Heavy Rain. And that's enough for me.

 

[King Billi]

Being a hack is not unique.

And Dirty Hipsters didn't say "HE'S SHIT BECAUSE I SAID SO", he outlined very clear reasons why he's a bad writer.

...

Let me be clear about one thing. When we say that David Cage is a bad writer, we are not expressing opinions, we are stating facts. He is objectively a bad writer, with little to no grasp of how a story should be structured or told to his audience. He is, furthermore, an objectively bad game designer. He doesn't want to make games for people to play, he wants to make movies for them to watch. But since his egregious lack of talent means he'll never get a job in movies or TV, he's had to settle for making 3-hour long cutscenes broken up by the barest concessions to gameplay he can get away with.

Please don't take our criticisms of him and his games as some sort of order that you should stop liking him. You're allowed to like whatever the fuck you want. But you need to man up to the fact that his games and writing are bad, and if you like them, you probably have bad taste. And if you're so thin-skinned that you can't read criticisms of something you like without throwing a tantrum, you should probably consider getting off the internet. it's not a very fun place for people that can't take some flak.

Okay I think I understand now.

"HE'S **** BECAUSE I USED THE WORD OBJECTIVELY A FEW TIMES"

"It's okay though you can like his **** games if you want to, you just have admit you're a moron with bad taste if you do."

"Also if you dare to disagree then you obviously can't handle criticism and are just throwing a tantrum"

By the way this is what constitutes "Throwing a tantrum" now.

Yeah he's not the greatest at what he does, but what he does is certainly unique, and that can be enough for some people.

Listen man, some people will like things that you don't, is that really so hard to accept?

 

[Lugbzurg]

On a similar note, am I one of the last people alive who really wasn't impressed with Half-Life 2's story? And thought Half-Life's simpler story actually worked out better? And that Lamar the Pet Headcrab contributed to more of the overall plot than Alyx Vance, who came off as a complete stalker the way she kept popping up over and over again, despite being pretty much an ordinary citizen?

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

True enough. Pretentiousness adds a whole other level of awful on top of poor writing. And you are probably right to say that this arrogance will preclude any real improvement, and he will continue on writing as he is now. But still, I actually think CoD takes itself just as seriously as Cage does. I mean they hired a Hollywood writer for Ghosts, and we will see how that may change things, but that act alone proves that they see themselves as a narrative leader in the industry.

Do not get me wrong, I can really love B-movie level writing. Writing that knows it is not serious, and just tries to have fun with the subject matter. But, the problem with many games is they see this as carte blanche to write truly stupid and even hurtful things. Resident Evil is good B-movie writing. Duke Nukem just came off as vicious and intentionally callous.

I suppose we could argue the semantics and finer points, but I would at least take a pretentious jerk over a violent neanderthal any day.

I'll take neither; the pretentious jerk is no better than the neanderthal, he's just more passive-aggressive, insecure, and cowardly which is ultimately what Cage is. He whines and moans about game storytelling being horrible but has never shown that he has the artistic courage to own up to his own mistakes and try to grow as an artist because that's too big a blow to his ego thus negating his entire crusade. If he's not willing to improve himself most of all he has no right to judge anyone else's writing.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

I just thought of something. Cage is kind of similar to George Lucas in some respects. Well, a few respects. Bear with me here. He's two parts brilliant one part balls-out insane, the latter of which usually very nearly ruining what credible writing came from the former. He has a huge ego. And if given complete and utter free reign on a project, it's sure to collapse on itself by the end.

Few know this, but Heavy Rain was supposed to have supernatural elements attributed to it from the similar vein of Indigo Prophecy:

Spoiler

The reason Ethan had so many dreams and blackouts that coincided with the Origami Killer's movements was due to the fact that he had a psychic connection with Shelby. This connection was made the day Shelby witnessed Jason die in Ethan's arms. It would have been a focal point in Ethan's search for the killer, as he would explain it to people that he had no clear evidence that absolved him of the murders, but he could feel that he was getting closer to the real killer.

This is where the major plot holes come into play: the other people working on Heavy Rain kind of reigned him in to remove these completely unnecessary supernatural elements from what was already an intriguing mystery thriller. However, these holes were never filled throughout the rest of development. In the end, we had a few plot holes to deal with, but the game didn't jump the shark and fall flat on its face by the end like Indigo Prophecy did (Matrix powers activate!).

 

[Compatriot Block]

Being a hack is not unique.

And Dirty Hipsters didn't say "HE'S SHIT BECAUSE I SAID SO", he outlined very clear reasons why he's a bad writer.

...

Let me be clear about one thing. When we say that David Cage is a bad writer, we are not expressing opinions, we are stating facts. He is objectively a bad writer, with little to no grasp of how a story should be structured or told to his audience. He is, furthermore, an objectively bad game designer. He doesn't want to make games for people to play, he wants to make movies for them to watch. But since his egregious lack of talent means he'll never get a job in movies or TV, he's had to settle for making 3-hour long cutscenes broken up by the barest concessions to gameplay he can get away with.

Please don't take our criticisms of him and his games as some sort of order that you should stop liking him. You're allowed to like whatever the fuck you want. But you need to man up to the fact that his games and writing are bad, and if you like them, you probably have bad taste. And if you're so thin-skinned that you can't read criticisms of something you like without throwing a tantrum, you should probably consider getting off the internet. it's not a very fun place for people that can't take some flak.

Okay I think I understand now.

"HE'S **** BECAUSE I USED THE WORD OBJECTIVELY A FEW TIMES"

"It's okay though you can like his **** games if you want to, you just have admit you're a moron with bad taste if you do."

"Also if you dare to disagree then you obviously can't handle criticism and are just throwing a tantrum"

By the way this is what constitutes "Throwing a tantrum" now.

Yeah he's not the greatest at what he does, but what he does is certainly unique, and that can be enough for some people.

Listen man, some people will like things that you don't, is that really so hard to accept?

You quoted the wrong guy, so you know. Maphysto is the one who wrote that post.