David Cage tackles domestic abuse in latest Detroit: BH trailer.

[Wintermute_v1legacy]

I managed to watch the video for 2 minutes before I had to stop because it's just terrible.

 

[Erttheking]

Really how often does it do that? And for each West game, a Japanese one probably does it he same.

That's funny.

And again, this has what do with this thread?

With people like David Cage? Everything.

It's funny that this is somehow a controversial statement. Sorry did I say funny? I meant sad.

Controversial? No. Just funny.

Cage is very much an outlier in the AAA industry, seriously, no one compares to him.

Many of the AAA single player devs are obsessed with storytelling, at the expense of gameplay. I don't remember the last AAA game I played with great gameplay, where the story didn't incessantly drag me away from playing it.

...you say I'm being funny then you say AAA devs care about story more than gameplay? I'm sorry what? Mayhaps you can give me some examples? I'm struggling to remember where a story truly detracted from a game. Unless you're arguing a story interrupting gameplay at all takes away from a game, which is a mindset that would highly limit games. If anything, open world games have gameplay eat away at story. Very few are like the Witcher 3 and give their side quests story, it's just mindless repetitive busywork.

I'm not gonna list them. That would be ridiculous.

Scripted setpieces, forced walking (and talking), cutscenes and in-game sequences that might as well be cutscenes. To use a recent example, Wolfenstein II is said to have a ratio of 60 percent gameplay and the rest story, including sequences that have very little if any player agency.

Realism and authenticity is a part of it too. A part of storytelling. The reason running and gunning is fading away and iron sights are so overemphasized is because this kind of slow gameplay is considered authentic. Level design has become really bad because the maps need to be so realistic now or they're purely in service of the story.

A few examples won't kill you.

Seriously struggling to think of any games that do that in a way that seriously hurt the game.

Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one. Particularly since the new Wolfenstein did this, the new Doom didn't and both had great stories on top of having fun gameplay.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Storytelling is great, but not when it compromises gameplay. The west is especially in love with cinema and these developers realize it, but trying to marry it with gameplay is a fine art in itself that very few have proven able to pull off convincingly.

Where does that border lie then? Should every game have a particular story to gameplay ratio? Wouldn't that make games awfully homogenized? Does every game need to be Doom '16? I say this because I kinda like that games can be whatever we want them to be, whether it be gameplay centric, story heavy, or even text based.

And also, Japan is the home of the JRPG and visual novel. Two genres that are all about the world, story, and characters. Two recent examples being Persona 5 and Yakuza 0; Both games that were highly praised despite them involving little more than walking to the next story sequence (some of those sequences being of substantial length).

I always find it odd that this 'story compromising gameplay' critique is only ever labled at western games, eventhough Japan is just as "guilty".

 

[Erttheking]

Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one.

You ignored my point. I don't wanna waste my time again. Bye.

Not really. And too late, you already spent an hour or two arguing with me.

 

[Erttheking]

Storytelling is great, but not when it compromises gameplay. The west is especially in love with cinema and these developers realize it, but trying to marry it with gameplay is a fine art in itself that very few have proven able to pull off convincingly.

Where does that border lie then? Should every game have a particular story to gameplay ratio? Wouldn't that make games awfully homogenized? Does every game need to be Doom '16? I say this because I kinda like that games can be whatever we want them to be, whether it be gameplay centric, story heavy, or even text based.

And also, Japan is the home of the JRPG and visual novel. Two genres that are all about the world, story, and characters. Two recent examples being Persona 5 and Yakuza 0; Both games that were highly praised despite them involving little more than walking to the next story sequence (some of those sequences being of substantial length).

I always find it odd that this 'story compromising gameplay' critique is only ever labled at western games, eventhough Japan is just as "guilty".

Japan is often viewed through rose tinted glasses. Some people think devs there have total freedom which is...yeah no.

 

[Erttheking]

Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one.

You ignored my point. I don't wanna waste my time again. Bye.

Not really. And too late, you already spent an hour or two arguing with me.

It wasn't so much an argument as stating the obvious. Frankly, it's ridiculous that I even had to explain the clear trend of the last ten years. And it wasn't an hour or two. I was playing Max Payne 3 all that time.

A very shallow explanation and interpretation if I do say so myself. Poorly supported too.

And so much for not wasting your time. It's amazing how often people act like they're done and leaving, but they end up having to say it two or three times before they actually follow through.

 

[Erttheking]

Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one.

You ignored my point. I don't wanna waste my time again. Bye.

Not really. And too late, you already spent an hour or two arguing with me.

It wasn't so much an argument as stating the obvious. Frankly, it's ridiculous that I even had to explain the clear trend of the last ten years. And it wasn't an hour or two. I was playing Max Payne 3 all that time.

A very shallow explanation and interpretation if I do say so myself. Poorly supported too.

And so much for not wasting your time.

Whatever you say. I find it interesting that you're so apologetic of these games. Well, I guess they know their audience.

I don't even know what "these" games are unless you're talking about every western game made in the last ten years. If you're going to insult me, have the guts to be direct about it. That and, you know, use an actual insult and not a weaksauce one like that.

And again. So much for not wasting your time.

 

[Hawki]

That was...interesting.

I don't think this is really groundbreaking, if only because the trailer is so melodramatic that it loses a lot of its potential impact. If anything, what's more impactful is the difference between Detroit proper and the place where the house is - gap between rich and poor and all that. And how much do androids cost in this world anyway?

But on the other hand, kudos for at least trying to address the subject. And at the least, I haven't seen an android in this position in fiction before.

This is actually in extremely interesting scenario how it's initially presented. You have an adroid in service of a household where it knows something is obviously amiss, but it being an android can't directly go against its owner.

Three Laws of Robotics anyone?

It's an interesting dilemma.

Splatoon 2 designer:

I'm stereotyping, but in the West, scope, visuals, and features are the main attraction. For example, when we used to have Kojima Productions L.A. -- we had an office in Los Angeles -- we would get proposals for new games, pitches. It always started with: "This is the world you're in. This is the experience I'm going to give you." And gameplay was relegated to page 5 or 6 or 10. It was always about who you're playing, who is the character, what's going on, but not the "how," how am I playing this?

In Japan, a pitch is a page, maybe two. The first page you write what the game is about and how you play it. And the second page, maybe you need an illustration. We don't care about who, or what the story is, what the game world is, all of this doesn't really matter.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/splatoon-2-hideo-kojima-nintendo-japanese-games-w501322

No wonder most games suck nowadays.

So...another reason why I'm not interested in Splatoon then?

I jest, but if anything, it's either the other way round, or a gross simplifaction. In the West, many publishers/developers are moving away from story-driven, singleplayer games. Not too long ago Visceral Games bit the dust, today, I learnt that Runic Games bit the dust because its mother company wanted to focus on its "games as a service" nonsense, there's a glut of multiplayer-only games, etc. And while I can enjoy multiplayer-only games in short doses, singleplayer, narrative-driven games look like an endangered species. Japan, at the least, is still a bastion of singleplayer, narrative-driven games at least.

Many of the AAA single player devs are obsessed with storytelling, at the expense of gameplay. I don't remember the last AAA game I played with great gameplay, where the story didn't incessantly drag me away from playing it. Westerners think games are immature and need to be more like other storytelling mediums, especially film.

Don't know what you're talking about, Western developers are focusing far more on gameplay and less on story. I've mentioned the examples up above, but this is part of a trend that's been going on for awhile.

Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one. Particularly since the new Wolfenstein did this, the new Doom didn't and both had great stories on top of having fun gameplay.

...Doom had a "great story?"

Yeah, okay, it's at least a primarily singleplayer game in a world where that's becoming a rarity, but I can't give its story that many (or rather, barely any) props. Nor its gameplay for that matter.

...Christ, how did things get so bad that I had to defend Doom 2016?

And also, Japan is the home of the JRPG and visual novel. Two genres that are all about the world, story, and characters. Two recent examples being Persona 5 and Yakuza 0; Both games that were highly praised despite them involving little more than walking to the next story sequence (some of those sequences being of substantial length).

I always find it odd that this 'story compromising gameplay' critique is only ever labled at western games, eventhough Japan is just as "guilty".

Basically this.

Frankly, it's ridiculous that I even had to explain the clear trend of the last ten years.

What trend? Because if we go back ten years, okay, maybe there was a shift towards narrative and linearity, but what about the 2010s? Linearity was once a dirty word, now open world is the new dirty word. Not to mention the multiplayer shift that's going on.

These are simplifications, and I'm a lot more forgiving than I've seen many others, but there's hardly one monolithic trend in the West right now. And if there is, it certainly isn't towards narrative, singleplayer games.

 

[Erttheking]

Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one.

You ignored my point. I don't wanna waste my time again. Bye.

Not really. And too late, you already spent an hour or two arguing with me.

It wasn't so much an argument as stating the obvious. Frankly, it's ridiculous that I even had to explain the clear trend of the last ten years. And it wasn't an hour or two. I was playing Max Payne 3 all that time.

A very shallow explanation and interpretation if I do say so myself. Poorly supported too.

And so much for not wasting your time.

Whatever you say. I find it interesting that you're so apologetic of these games. Well, I guess they know their audience.

I don't even know what "these" games are unless you're talking about every western game made in the last ten years. If you're going to insult me, have the guts to be direct about it. That and, you know, use an actual insult and not a weaksauce one like that.

And again. So much for not wasting your time.

Meh. I don't like insulting people. I was gonna insult you for being obtuse after your first reply, but then I decided to just leave it. But then you repeatedly denied what's happening with AAA games and conveniently misinterpreted something I said. Wasting my time would be having a three page argument with you. I know how people like you are. Examples? I thought, yeah, this guy is hellbent on wasting my time. You'd have to be living under a rock not to see it. The Splatoon guy is right. It's about story and "experience" first.

Funny. I legit have no idea what the heck you're talking about with these trends because you never explained yourself properly by giving a single bloody example. As Hawki pointed out your criticisms of the industry are radically out of date. And I didn't misrepresent jack. You basically said increased realism was the fault of story. You said it, hell if I know why. Your problem, not mine.

And still no examples. And you have the gall to call me obtuse. But don't let me get in the way of you declaring yourself right, don't want to rain on your parade with sense and reason.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

I managed to watch the video for 2 minutes before I had to stop because it's just terrible.

Twas my initial reaction. Cage is like an alien trying to mimic humanity through all the films he's seen. Approaching this subject matter is going to be painful mess with him but he will still remain bafflingly pretentious and proud of it all.

 

[Erttheking]

And still no examples. And you have the gall to call me obtuse.

Uh, yes, I did. Wolfenstein II is similar to a lot of games. This is why I didn't wanna bother. Obtuse. Denial.

Well you're a bit of a hypocrite then, because it's similar to what games exactly? Still no examples, you could've given me a dozen by this point. Not many games like Wolfenstein being made today. But sure, keep saying obtuse and snipping posts like it means something.

 

[BarkBarker]

I always thought he was phrasing a feeling I believe writers should have incorrectly when he said he didn't choose to do so but it chose him. It's the idea that when writing a setting if you wish to base it into some sense of cohesion, reality and consistency you gotta do the dirty, because that's what a writer must do to make the world and the tale within grounded and "genuine". If you wanna tell a story in a time period you do it as it was with all those awful outdated trimmings it had. A society in some alternate world oh shit better write some horrendous nasties that'll fuck the kiddies upbut fuck what you WANNA write if I gotta write stories about say humans being skinned and worn by another species to create the cohesive world then gerdermmit you gotta fucking do it.

Do I think he is a good choice for such a thing? No. Do I think he did it well from what we have been shown? No. I think it's gonna fall flat and have horrendous consequences for having such a weak, lacking and Hollywood tint to it. I just thought that particular point was of some interest.

 

[Erttheking]

...Doom had a "great story?"

It did in my book, and in the books of a lot of people. Mainly because the Doomslayer himself practically oozed personality in a way many games utterly fail to do.

Oh, and speaking of Jim, he's responded to this trailer. He thinks very poorly of it. He called it a caricature of what abuse looks like, and says that Wolfenstein actually did it better.

http://www.thejimquisition.com/detroits-domestic-abuse-trailer-is-a-hackneyed-farce/

I'd say that Mass Effect 2 also did it better, what with Miranda's father being controlling instead of physically abusive.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

I always thought he was phrasing a feeling I believe writers should have incorrectly when he said he didn't choose to do so but it chose him. It's the idea that when writing a setting if you wish to base it into some sense of cohesion, reality and consistency you gotta do the dirty, because that's what a writer must do to make the world and the tale within grounded and "genuine". If you wanna tell a story in a time period you do it as it was with all those awful outdated trimmings it had. A society in some alternate world oh shit better write some horrendous nasties that'll fuck the kiddies upbut fuck what you WANNA write if I gotta write stories about say humans being skinned and worn by another species to create the cohesive world then gerdermmit you gotta fucking do it.

Do I think he is a good choice for such a thing? No. Do I think he did it well from what we have been shown? No. I think it's gonna fall flat and have horrendous consequences for having such a weak, lacking and Hollywood tint to it. I just thought that particular point was of some interest.

Yeah, that phrase I wouldn't have a problem with if it came from a writer with any history whatsoever of acceptable writing, any understanding of narrative cohesion, character cohesion or a desire to tell an original story. On a generous day, I wouldn't have a problem with a budding writer with little to no evidence of their talent saying that. But Cage has consistently produced narrative work so bad, it's astounding. Like if one of RLMs Best of the Worst entries were given a AAA budget repeatedly.
He's well far enough into the negative zone of writer credit that when he says something like that, it's a sure thing it's only because he's heard it said elsewhere by people with actual talent and wants to maintain that pretense of a beloved auteur. (But saying any of that in the OP would've skewed the tone somewhat).

 

[Wrex Brogan]

See, I'm conflicted about this.

On one hand, it's potentially just a cheap marketing tactic to generate attention through all the kerfuffle about why Sony played this at a public event.

On the other hand, it's a David Cage game, and frankly at this point we shouldn't be surprised at the dumb shit he puts in his trailers in a mediocre attempt to appear like he gives two shits about a 'serious topic'.

I'd say there's a third hand where they actually did mean to cover the issue seriously and just fucked up the execution, but... well, it's David Cage, it's hard to tell if he's actually trying to be serious about a topic, but it's very easy to tell when he's fucking up the execution. He's very good at that part.