David Cage tackles domestic abuse in latest Detroit: BH trailer.

[TheMysteriousGX]

I think the dude might be a hack:

Spoiler: Would you ask this question to a film director, or to a writer?

Spoiler: the game is not about domestic abuse

Spoiler: Money Shot

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Splatoon 2 designer:

I'm stereotyping, but in the West, scope, visuals, and features are the main attraction. For example, when we used to have Kojima Productions L.A. -- we had an office in Los Angeles -- we would get proposals for new games, pitches. It always started with: "This is the world you're in. This is the experience I'm going to give you." And gameplay was relegated to page 5 or 6 or 10. It was always about who you're playing, who is the character, what's going on, but not the "how," how am I playing this?

In Japan, a pitch is a page, maybe two. The first page you write what the game is about and how you play it. And the second page, maybe you need an illustration. We don't care about who, or what the story is, what the game world is, all of this doesn't really matter.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/splatoon-2-hideo-kojima-nintendo-japanese-games-w501322

No wonder most games suck nowadays.

Western games focus more on the story?

Struggling to see the problem. Particularly when the guy admitted he was stereotyping.

Also, what does this have to do with anything?

Storytelling is great, but not when it compromises gameplay. The west is especially in love with cinema and these developers realize it, but trying to marry it with gameplay is a fine art in itself that very few have proven able to pull off convincingly.

Really how often does it do that? And for each West game, a Japanese one probably does it he same.

And again, this has what do with this thread?

- Every time a game disrupts gameplay for something pointless like opening a damn door in some scripted way, or using quick time for something that could be handled more naturally/organically, or just plain gimps the gameplay because "We're trying to tell a serious story here, so never mind that you can only move your character at a snail's pace while someone's talking."

- Oh, goodmorning Strawman, nice to see you!

- This is one of those games that definitely focuses on story above gameplay, and while I don't think Cage does as badly with it most seem to, it really has a ways to go towards feeling like you're playing something more than an elaborate game of Simon Says. The gameplay always feels tacked on in these kinds of titles, like a reluctant requirement of the medium.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Storytelling is great, but not when it compromises gameplay. The west is especially in love with cinema and these developers realize it, but trying to marry it with gameplay is a fine art in itself that very few have proven able to pull off convincingly.

Where does that border lie then? Should every game have a particular story to gameplay ratio? Wouldn't that make games awfully homogenized? Does every game need to be Doom '16? I say this because I kinda like that games can be whatever we want them to be, whether it be gameplay centric, story heavy, or even text based.

And also, Japan is the home of the JRPG and visual novel. Two genres that are all about the world, story, and characters. Two recent examples being Persona 5 and Yakuza 0; Both games that were highly praised despite them involving little more than walking to the next story sequence (some of those sequences being of substantial length).

I always find it odd that this 'story compromising gameplay' critique is only ever labled at western games, eventhough Japan is just as "guilty".

Well, the difference there is those games know what they are and don't pretend to be anything else. I never felt irritated that a cutscene happened before a boss fight or that I had to read thousands of text blerbs playing FF. What irritates me is when I'm playing an action game and have scripted interruptions over something completely trivial, like opening a door, critical kills, etc., or have to walk at a snail's pace to listen to some "important" conversation, all in the name of appearing more cinematic.

I can understand when technology was limited and a game had to load the next area, but there's really no excuse for these disruptions anymore. It's why I'm curiously looking forward to the new God of War, which is supposed to be done entirely in one continuous shot. I'm just hoping they handle the "walk n talk" stuff better than others have so far. Keep the normal move set intact and if something's important, do what Uncharted 4/Lost Legacy did with the talk icon above their heads, or maybe have the kid wave me over to him so I know to focus on what he's going to say.

 

[Erttheking]

Splatoon 2 designer:

I'm stereotyping, but in the West, scope, visuals, and features are the main attraction. For example, when we used to have Kojima Productions L.A. -- we had an office in Los Angeles -- we would get proposals for new games, pitches. It always started with: "This is the world you're in. This is the experience I'm going to give you." And gameplay was relegated to page 5 or 6 or 10. It was always about who you're playing, who is the character, what's going on, but not the "how," how am I playing this?

In Japan, a pitch is a page, maybe two. The first page you write what the game is about and how you play it. And the second page, maybe you need an illustration. We don't care about who, or what the story is, what the game world is, all of this doesn't really matter.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/splatoon-2-hideo-kojima-nintendo-japanese-games-w501322

No wonder most games suck nowadays.

Western games focus more on the story?

Struggling to see the problem. Particularly when the guy admitted he was stereotyping.

Also, what does this have to do with anything?

Storytelling is great, but not when it compromises gameplay. The west is especially in love with cinema and these developers realize it, but trying to marry it with gameplay is a fine art in itself that very few have proven able to pull off convincingly.

Really how often does it do that? And for each West game, a Japanese one probably does it he same.

And again, this has what do with this thread?

- Every time a game disrupts gameplay for something pointless like opening a damn door in some scripted way, or using quick time for something that could be handled more naturally/organically, or just plain gimps the gameplay because "We're trying to tell a serious story here, so never mind that you can only move your character at a snail's pace while someone's talking."

- Oh, goodmorning Strawman, nice to see you!

- This is one of those games that definitely focuses on story above gameplay, and while I don't think Cage does as badly with it most seem to, it really has a ways to go towards feeling like you're playing something more than an elaborate game of Simon Says. The gameplay always feels tacked on in these kinds of titles, like a reluctant requirement of the medium.

What straw man and examples please. And Cage games are very much a break from the norm.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Well, the difference there is those games know what they are and don't pretend to be anything else. I never felt irritated that a cutscene happened before a boss fight or that I had to read thousands of text blerbs playing FF. What irritates me is when I'm playing an action game and have scripted interruptions over something completely trivial, like opening a door, critical kills, etc., or have to walk at a snail's pace to listen to some "important" conversation, all in the name of appearing more cinematic.

Well then, what games pretend to be something they're not? Even games that go for a heavy cinematic presentation don't pretend like they're not. To come back to David Cage, Quantic Dream games wear their "cinematic" hearts on their sleeve. They don't pretend to be anything other than big flashy, interactive movies.

So again, how is this such a sin compared to JRPGs and visual novels?

And if we're already calling moments like door-opening animations or finishers a scripted sequence, then what isn't a scripted sequence? I mean yeah, they are, but so are reload animations, or equiping a gun or sword, or getting in a car, or climbing on a horse.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Well, the difference there is those games know what they are and don't pretend to be anything else. I never felt irritated that a cutscene happened before a boss fight or that I had to read thousands of text blerbs playing FF. What irritates me is when I'm playing an action game and have scripted interruptions over something completely trivial, like opening a door, critical kills, etc., or have to walk at a snail's pace to listen to some "important" conversation, all in the name of appearing more cinematic.

Since when is a Quantic Dream game pretending to be anything else than an adventure game with AAA-quality graphics? And, the "classic" FF games were constantly interrupted with gameplay as they were literally adventure games with a combat system thrown in. Every 3 steps, I was interrupted with pointless combat.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

What straw man and examples please. And Cage games are very much a break from the norm.

And for each West game, a Japanese one probably does it he same.

I realize Cage games are a break from the norm. I really don't mind them that much actually. But it's still pretty clear that story is taking the front seat because the gameplay that's in them is pretty damn shallow, and is designed specifically to accommodate the story.

 

[Dalisclock]

What straw man and examples please. And Cage games are very much a break from the norm.

And for each West game, a Japanese one probably does it he same.

I realize Cage games are a break from the norm. I really don't mind them that much actually. But it's still pretty clear that story is taking the front seat because the gameplay that's in them is pretty damn shallow, and is designed specifically to accommodate the story.

Which is honestly kinda sad considering the story in Cage games are not particulary....good.

Unless you consider Ellen Page crying a lot or the holographic avatar of the internet trying to freeze the world for reasons quality storywriting.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

I think the dude might be a hack:

Spoiler: Would you ask this question to a film director, or to a writer?

Spoiler: the game is not about domestic abuse

Spoiler: Money Shot

Ho. Ly. CRAP. It's amazing that a guy who is so obsessed with narrative keeps sucking at it and is so oblivious as to how he is viewed (see also: Ninja Theory). "Not about domestic abuse." What? That's not how it works, David. You have inserted that into the narrative so it's going to be about domestic abuse in some way; you can't just put that in there because you want the drama of it. I want to slap this clown until his facial features randomize

 

[Dalisclock]

I think the dude might be a hack:

Spoiler: Would you ask this question to a film director, or to a writer?

Spoiler: the game is not about domestic abuse

Spoiler: Money Shot

Ho. Ly. CRAP. It's amazing that a guy who is so obsessed with narrative keeps sucking at it and is so oblivious as to how he is viewed (see also: Ninja Theory). "Not about domestic abuse." What? That's not how it works, David. You have inserted that into the narrative so it's going to be about domestic abuse in some way; you can't just put that in there because you want the drama of it. I want to slap this clown until his facial features randomize

But he's a GENUIS! He shows so many EMOTIONS in his games because there are so many PIXELS! MORE PIXELS=MORE EMOTIONS!

David Cage is the French Uwe Boll, strangely. One makes terrible movies from video games, the other makes terrible video games that are one step away from being movies. Both of them see themselves as being Auteur Geniuses.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

But he's a GENUIS! He shows so many EMOTIONS in his games because there are so many PIXELS! MORE PIXELS=MORE EMOTIONS!

David Cage is the French Uwe Boll, strangely. One makes terrible movies from video games, the other makes terrible video games that are one step away from being movies. Both of them see themselves as being Auteur Geniuses.

You know, in a way, I can sort of respect David Cage just for putting heavy themes in his games.

Except everything of his I've played or seen tells me he's not the guy for it. He doesn't have the chops, not as a writer, or director, nor as a game designer. Which could be forgiven. He's not the first to have tried and failed. Maybe if he put half as much energy into improving his skills as he does into trying to convince everyone he has them, he might just be decent.

But he's too convinced of his own talents as an auteur, his head too far stuck up his own ass. Maybe all that rapey and abuse stuff in his games is really intended to be poignant, and not for cheap drama. If so, he clearly doesn't understand how to make them work.

Sad, because there are rare moments where he gets ever so close to getting it right.

Spoiler

Like the chapter in Beyond: Two Souls where Ellen Page is homeless, cold and hungry, having to beg for money to survive. You get a bunch of options on how to get it. Going up to people and asking, busking, pilfering change from payphones and newspaper dispensers, or the less innocuous stealing from an ATM with your powers. And then there's the seedy guy who offers you money for sexual favors.

Yeah, it might be cheap and the game doesn't actually let you go through with it, but I think that section sold the idea of someone falling so low, so desperate, that sucking dick in a back alley becomes an option. I only saw it as a let's play, but it left an impression. I felt empathy for people who got to such a dark place.

Makes me wonder if, when removed from the rest of the game's nonsense, perhaps it could work as part of an awareness campaign.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

I think there?s a stigma about writing and delivery in games, because most of it has been so shitty even compared to average or B movie quality. It?s kinda sad, because it just makes the job of people who do want to tell a good story that much tougher. We have bits and pieces, but what game/developer has really nailed everything? Naughty Dog for example nails the delivery, but as far as writing quality and engaging subject matter it?s a crapshoot.

I don?t think gaming has had its equivalents of the greatest movies or books yet, at least as far as taking advantage of the medium?s unique storytelling capabilities.

 

[CaitSeith]

I think the dude might be a hack:

Spoiler: Would you ask this question to a film director, or to a writer?

Spoiler: the game is not about domestic abuse

Spoiler: Money Shot

If he didn't choose to talk about domestic abuse, I wonder how the scene ended up being about it.

- Did he randomly pick a movie from his Oscar-bait collection for inspiration, and it just happened to have domestic abuse?
- Did he just heed the voices in his head (again)?
- Did the dart landed on "domestic abuse" on his "moving and meaningful" dartboard?
- Did his monkey wrote it on the typewriter (after discarding his Hamlet manuscript for not being meaningful enough)?

Write your guesses, ladies and gentlemen!

 

[happyninja42]

I really liked that clip, like a lot. I don't know if it's the music, combined with the flashing between choices, but that shot after he walks up the stairs, after ordering her to stay put, and you immediately see the interface indicating player agency, yeah that got me.

My immediate response was "yeah, fuck that noise", it wasn't even a "choice." I admit I have a soft spot for stories of people being defiant in the face of tyrants and abusers, and I equally have a soft spot for stories of AI and individuality, and the inherent concept of "just because she's artificial, doesn't mean she isn't alive".

So yeah, I'm totally on board with that clip. I was already really interested in this game from the previous clips I've seen, but that one actually gave me some emotional reactions, which is something I always seek out in a game. So to have it work so well in that trailer, yeah, color me sold on the game. Hopefully the game itself will measure up, it might not. But I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it.

 

[maninahat]

Pretty consistent for what I've seen of David Cage; which is to say, tone death, trashy, derivative story telling that makes way too big a deal about offering choices, all the while either failing to offer sensible choices (i.e, how can a futuristic robot have free will, but can't report to social services or the police?) Part of me wants to praise the guy's ambition, but it's only one step forwards and two running backwards leaps.

 

[happyninja42]

Pretty consistent for what I've seen of David Cage; which is to say, tone death, trashy, derivative story telling that makes way too big a deal about offering choices, all the while either failing to offer sensible choices (i.e, how can a futuristic robot have free will, but can't report to social services or the police?)

Do you want to play a video game where the resolution to the scenario is "And then they called the cops?" That's fairly dull and unexciting. Sure it's not realistic, but most of the shit that happens in video games is unrealistic.

Nevermind that there are a ton of real world reasons that the police or social services wouldn't act on a tip like that, as those things do happen. Due to legal procedures and other factors, they are unable to step in and assist, and then later bad things happen. Nevermind that the entire thrust of the story seems to be that your "standard" model of android isn't apparently supposed to have free will, which is the whole issue with the conflict between them and the biologics.

Devs might try for as much realism as possible in the games they make, but there is a level of drama that is inherent in any storytelling. Hell, Alfred Hitchcock was asked that very question of "why don't they go to the police?" to which he responded "Because it's dull." And there is some merit to that. I don't really want to play a game where I don't do anything.

Hell, in Watchdogs, a game entirely about a guy with a phone, he doesn't "just call the cops." He actually does stuff while on his phone. Which is more interesting.

 

[Callate]

I have mixed feelings about it.

On one hand, David Cage. As far as the dramatic aspects of his work go, he rarely seems to rise above a mediocre USA channel movie, and does plenty that falls beneath.

Points to him for trying to mesh cinematic aesthetics and ideas with modern video game technology, but to say his reach exceeds his grasp is often putting it mildly.

So, yeah... It was unlikely that this was ever going to be groundbreaking beyond the very surface-level controversy. We get a layer of "how dare David Cage, of all people, try to cover this difficult topic" in addition to the usual "how dare video games dare try to cover this difficult topic", because where video games aren't for children they're apparently exclusively for an audience of delicate sensibilities.

On the other hand, every time something like this comes up, I think "This reaction isn't telling producers to handle delicate subjects with more sensitivity; it's telling them to box the ears of any creator who tries to touch on them at all."

And Jim Sterling's reaction... Well, I mean, he apparently suffered from some terrible things as a child, it's understandable why he might feel strongly on the matter. But I get the distinctly uneasy feeling that jumping to the worst possible conclusions as to why person 'x' or company 'y' is doing [perceived] terrible thing 'z' is becoming downright reflexive, and that's not a small blind spot... Nor, unfortunately, an uncommon one.

It is, in fact, quite possible that Cage isn't aware that he's somehow inherently banned from taking movie-of-the-week shots at the subject of domestic abuse; it's entirely possible that the idea occurred to him, re-occurred to him, wouldn't leave him alone, and he decided it was resonant enough with him as a storyteller that he felt some kind of need or obligation to act upon it. People used to talk about artists being visited by their "Muse"; that's part of the package, whether you're a master artist of the high Renaissance or a second-rate screenplay hack.

Video games aren't going to really hit their stride artistically until they genuinely have the freedom to be enjoyably bad. Between the costs involved, the timbre in criticism, aggregate sites like metacritic and the belief that all a game is can be filtered down to a 1-10 (or, realistically, 4-10) review score, I can't help but wonder if that will happen any time soon. Indeed, one might argue that movies are moving in the opposite direction with the prolonged death of video rental and the growing loss of direct-to-cable.

I'll be mildly curious to see how Become Human ends up doing. I rather hope this particular tempest in a teacup passes soon.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Pretty consistent for what I've seen of David Cage; which is to say, tone death, trashy, derivative story telling that makes way too big a deal about offering choices, all the while either failing to offer sensible choices (i.e, how can a futuristic robot have free will, but can't report to social services or the police?)

Do you want to play a video game where the resolution to the scenario is "And then they called the cops?" That's fairly dull and unexciting. Sure it's not realistic, but most of the shit that happens in video games is unrealistic.

Nevermind that there are a ton of real world reasons that the police or social services wouldn't act on a tip like that, as those things do happen. Due to legal procedures and other factors, they are unable to step in and assist, and then later bad things happen. Nevermind that the entire thrust of the story seems to be that your "standard" model of android isn't apparently supposed to have free will, which is the whole issue with the conflict between them and the biologics.

Devs might try for as much realism as possible in the games they make, but there is a level of drama that is inherent in any storytelling. Hell, Alfred Hitchcock was asked that very question of "why don't they go to the police?" to which he responded "Because it's dull." And there is some merit to that. I don't really want to play a game where I don't do anything.

Hell, in Watchdogs, a game entirely about a guy with a phone, he doesn't "just call the cops." He actually does stuff while on his phone. Which is more interesting.

Not to mention it?s pretty useless.

?Thank you for calling 911, what?s your emergency??

?OMG a man just broke into my house, please help!!?

?...Ok we'll send a car over to your location ASAP. What?s your address??

?Oh, it?s 234 Baker St*. Please hur*THUD!*?

?Ma?am, you still there? Ma?am please respond...?

?.....?

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Oh my god, Cage you fucking hack, you use the same character model for the big bad rape guy in Beyond: two shits as you do for the big bad dad here...you are a walking cliche with no self-awareness. How can you claim to present dark and serious subjects sincerely when you make everything a cartoonish caricature from 80's stereotypes?

 

[Vigormortis]

Still, I'll give him some kudos for not showing the female protagonist in a rape scenario, though that might change once the game is out.

Mmm, yeah...

I give it ten minutes from the start of the game, tops, until we see a short-haired, slim, young-looking girl naked in the shower, bathroom, or some sort of compromising position.

I honestly don't know what's worse: Cage's pretentiousness, his ego, his fans, his inability to write anything cohesive, coherent, or engaging, or the utter predictability of his creepy obsessions.

As one Matthew "McMuscles" Kowalewski of the Super Best Friends Zaibatsu put it: "David Cage is the worst thing to happen to France since their surrender in World War II."