Dead Children and someone's not giving a s#!t...

[Kroker]

i feel for those kids. completely scarred. People are going to stare at them and treated them like there disabled.

What's worse is that they appear to be the lucky ones.

I'm sorry to hear of this tragedy and am amazed that I hadn't heard of it before. I genuinely feel for you and the other people who have been affected by this. Unfortunately all I can do is to just hope that justice will be served. Hopefully the government will eventually listen to what you have to say and take measures to assure that an event like this never happens again. I wish you good luck with any future rallies.

It is truly amazing how corrupt governments can become.

 

[Dogstile]

I'm always skeptical of people's views toward the death of younger people. Is there such a difference between 17 and 18 years of age? A teenager dies, and we're up in arms. An 18 year old dies, and it's just another tally on the board.

I think people feel sorry for the death of younger people, because everyone else does. Just being a big old flock of sheep. Or hey, I could just be a non-emotional bastard.

Make yourselves feel better and go with the second option.

nope, i agree, people are stupid, any loss of life is tragic, no need to point out it was kids, it doesn't make it sound worse then people died

 

[fulano]

Some folks don't seem to get that while this is indeed about dead children it is about a social problem. If you find this too murky or contrived and prefer to talk about wii or xbox, or ps3, then go forward and have fun, and that's awesome too.

What I'm trying to say is that this really engaging to me, and while I may not agree with all of you I do learn something from this.

No worries. I get where you are coming from, and that this is more of a social quagmire but like I said, I think that(hopefully) as emotions calm down from this that more rational thought will prevale and it will spurr improvements that arent just mean to appease the masses but actually fix the problems.

Thoughout history there various governments around the world have used token gestures to calm an outraged public and the sad thing is it has worked.


The place I was coming from was one of thoughtful detachment. If people are goign to rally for something to be fixed, they should make sure they are fixing the real problem and not just a symptom of said problem.

And I do get what you are saying about thoughtful detachment, but the situation is such that since kids died, babies, people just went in an uproar in a kind of kneejerk reaction, doing exactly as you said, and much later, like 10 days into this, is when the actual movement started to take shape and lawyers got involved.

But yes indeed, at the beginning people just went bonkers because as I said, it was an instinctual thing, which was rather weird because in here people here are just very, very passive.

Also, the government doing something is a kneejerk reaction also, because elections for federal deputies(diputados: they are representatives in congress) are just around the corner. It certainly doesn't come from the goodness of their hearts, and most certainly not everyone will get their comeuppance but at least something will be done. Sure, something half-way decent may come from this but they are doing it mostly to appease the masses.

It's the classic "do the right thing for the wrong reasons and count your blessings," because they know that people are just jumpy these days. Between the cartels, the politicians, just basic requirements that aren't met, all those contributing to the general state of things, something like this(a horrific incident that involves children) is like a rotting dog on a container, and someone's gotta put a lid on it lest risking for a number of infectious diseases, if you know what I mean...

Getting "justice," which is what people rallied for in the first place is not something that can be realistically attained, or at least not in this system of ours, so what one has to do is to settle for something in between.

 

[MCJazz77]

I'm saying the government is going to look at is as complacency, and that nothing will come of it. Besides, whether or not it's complacent to state it's complacent has no effect on the point. I realize the daycare incident is more of a symptom, but what the hell do you want? Do you even know? Should I pat your back, or head down there and reform your whole society for you? The world is fucked up, you know this. Even if things worked when the chips were down, as you put it, babies will still die. I call it a tame reason, because Hermosillo will move on.
Honestly, you seem to attack anyone that even distantly disagrees with you. And anyone that would agree with you can't say anything that isn't extremely immaterial and pointless - "Cool story, bro." That is why I don't understand rants, especially of this nature.

The bereaved thing was a joke, as you inadvertently described them when you used that adjective. Also, I'm rather surprised you haven't been banned yet.

Oh, man. Where to begin?

Now, whet else? Ah, yes. You are right. I do not know what I want, and yes, you should pat my back...please? Also, yes, I want you to come in and reform my society, right now for I fear what it would turn into without you.

And you've convinced me. This world is indeed fucked up and I should do nothing about it because even if I do my best babies will still die so, yes, you are absolutely right, I don't know what I was thinking. It is indeed a tame reason. How could I be so blind?

I've also realized I'm a nutjob for bothering to defend my argument, and that all I wanted from the beginning was for somebody to say cool things about me, and to praise me from being so socially committed but I ended up with extremely immaterial and pointles comments that cannot fill my shallowness.

Your argument cut me deep and it went straight to my heart. I'm in shambles now and I can't find the words to fight back...

I love you atol. You just changed my life... ...and made me lol in the process.

Oh, and one last thing: You should think about complacency...hard.

So wait, the rally is for better designed "day-cares"?

and most of the burned were babies/toddlers?


Correct me if I am wrong, but even if there were emergency exits to begin with and a fire started, who would have gotten all those babies out unless there are an equal number of workers there?

By definition its a tragedy, sure. But I think people might be letting emotion clog some of the logic in this whole thing.


What if there were emergency doors but the workers could only get a fraction of the children out before the rest were severely burnt/overtaken by the flames?

I know tragedy spurrs inmprovement but I have a feeling from readin OPs rant and the articles that people have an unrealistic viewpoint of how the tradedy might have unfoled if there had been emergency exits.

Edit - Also, why would it be up to the US to take care of this? beyond providing humanitarian aid in this instance, I would think it would be more of an outrage beyond the emergency door issue that there isnt enough highly trained medical personel with expereince to treat burn victims.

Problem was that the daycare wasn't that big a place and it was clogged with kids, not to mention the workers. The problem could have been extremely minimized had there been emergency exits, for sure, but when you have a place full of people and only one exit, and it's not even that big, you are bound to run into trouble. Besides, The whole thing took five or seven mitues, tops.

For sure. People are letting emotion cloud their judgment as is expected when something like this happens. The first two rallies were basically people screaming, and until later did actual lawyers begun to get involved and so this thing is taking a more directed approach, now.

It's instinct. When young people die you just go into overdrive and in this case the majority were just babies/toddlers. Add to that a growing mentality of distance from the government at large and you have the recipe for disaster.

As of today 7 people are already in custody, so there you go, stuff is being done out of need to minimize potential political fallout, but still, stuff is being done.

I get the feeling that some people here just get annoyed at me constantly hammering this and they try point out to me the fact that I'm really worked up about this more than I should, and that I should see it from a more realistic place. And yet you got to understand that context means everything, and it isn't so easy to just go utilitaristic on the whole thing.

I am indeed interested in what people think in here for the simple reason thet most of you live under different systems wether they be social or government-wise. If you don't care for it or think I'm a self serving idiot then, by all means, just ignore me and go about your day.

If you feel you have something bto say then do go ahead, and I will most likely reply and, like all things, you may or may not like it.

Some folks don't seem to get that while this is indeed about dead children it is about a social problem. If you find this too murky or contrived and prefer to talk about wii or xbox, or ps3, then go forward and have fun, and that's awesome too.

What I'm trying to say is that this really engaging to me, and while I may not agree with all of you I do learn something from this.

Ooooooooh. Look who's the "big man" now? You know, sarcasm isn't the lowest form of wit, it isn't even wit at all.

First off, you DO seem to be personally attacking every person who disagrees with you. I don't know whether it's because you think they don't care about the fact that babies died or maybe you're just that insecure, I don't know.

Second, atol is right. Just because reform is, or appears to be, happening doesn't stop the fact that babies are dead. People are greedy, animals, just like every other animal on the face of the Earth. Just because THIS problem is dealt with doesn't mean that other people aren't going to find other ways to get around other rules to allow them to make a couple bucks. It's been happening for as long as man has had rules and it will continue for as long as man has rules.

Lastly, "context is everything"..........wow. If something bad happens, no matter when, where or why, the bad thing has still happened. When, where and why change NOTHING. If these babies had died because some boat tipped over and they drowned, would it change anything? Would the parents have their babies. The parents, and you apparently, don't seem to get that this circumstance is not JUST the governments fault. Yes, they could have had better guidelines, but directing all blame onto them is.....ridiculous. It makes just as much sense to blame the people who sold the daycare center the item that started the fire, or the daycare employees for not putting it out before it spread. You have to look at the big picture. It's like the parents who sued the Blue Oyster Cult over their song "Don't Fear the Reaper". The parents said the song drove their son to suicide and they refused to take into account tons of other factors that could have gone into their son killing himself.

So, to sum up, yes babies died and yes it is sad. Will you get some reform? Yes, but, in the long run, it won't matter. Things like this are gonna happen again. So, good for you, for trying to change the rules for the better, but the dirty little secret about rules is, people are going to continue to find new ways to break them. Bravo for trying and keep it up, but if you don't face the facts and see that it's a never ending battle, you're going to lose.

 

[AnGeL.SLayer]

I say shame on the parents who would even drop their children off at such a place. I mean what the hell, no exits? I'd be like I donttt think so and report them myself.

I cant help you that your country is messed up but some people have it worse. Its horrible that the children died, tragic that they had to have parents who didnt care and lived in a country where no one cared until something had to happen. Its everyones fault to blame and everyone should feel guilty about it. Its also sad that children are starving to death while I end up throwing tons of food away each week. What can you do but get out there and help. I commend you on caring and wanting to see something done but I'm sorry that it had to take the lives of children before you would even glance that way.


^_^

 

[fulano]

*snip*

I have a question: Where do you get that I was trying to be witty? I was merely agreeing to everything he said to make a point of how absurd his argument really was. No witty-isms, honest... but then again, there's only so much you can do when somebody acts condescending(which you could make a case of me being one, I'm not perfect).

I get where you are coming from, and someone stated it much, much better than you when he used he/she used the expression thoughtful detachment, but sadly your detachment is such that it borders in being sorely misinformed. You compare a case about a song with a case where permits were requested, issued, and upheld...really? Should I reply? For real, the ball is in your court. I'll PM you if you so wish and we'll do this and that dance, ok? But it's up to you.

But who knows how it may go since your standard for calling something a personal attack seems to be when someone disparages an opinion, which is rather sad, let me tell you. You are entitled to get worked up over this, and also to agree with mr. atol over there, and good for you both; but you cannot realistically expect me to take seriously either of your oppinions if you only make use of utilitaristic arguments.

What do I mean by that?

You just wrote: So, to sum up, yes babies died and yes it is sad. Will you get some reform? Yes, but, in the long run, it won't matter. Things like this are gonna happen again. So, good for you, for trying to change the rules for the better, but the dirty little secret about rules is, people are going to continue to find new ways to break them. Bravo for trying and keep it up, but if you don't face the facts and see that it's a never ending battle, you're going to lose.

So...yeah. That's not really a call for arguments, is it? You are just basically telling me "You are annoying, so stop whining because it don't matter and you don't get the full gist of it. Period. Shut it."

Do I think people don't care? That's akin to asking me if I want a pat in the back.

Finally, you can feel free to make whatever judgments you want about me(insecurity over teh interwebs? you be the judge), you are entitled to that. All I can say is that I care about this thing, I pay attention to the posts people make in here, and that I learn from this. So, do as you will.

P.D: Don't Fear The Reaper is a great song. Ironically, I'm listening to it right now(there's a lot of musical irony these days in my life), but to be fair, I'm also listening to Veteran of The Psychic Wars and Chocolate Rain(yeah, that one), so there you go...

 

[SsilverR]

i refuse to feel bad over something i had no control over and probably not do anything about ... this is definitely a negative thing and what's worst it seems like it could've been avoided even with minimal effort ... i can't go any deeper because frankly i'm too tired to read the entire thing

i can only hope this is a mistake they learn from ....... then burning babies won't hog newspaper pages and we can all focus on more important issues like if paris hilton got a new haircut (/sarcasm)

 

[Cocal]

Sorry but TL;DR

But I have some Input.

Just something to think about. WHY dose it matter anymore if they are little (babies, children, toddlers) A life is a life. If an old folk's home burned to the ground you would be less sad? Because that's what I think you're saying. It's still a life. No matter the age.

Also do not give me that bullshit, " THEIR INNOCENT " or " THEY HAVEN'T HAD A CHANGE TO EXPERIENCE LIFE". Because A life Is A Life No matter how you look at it, the fact remains

A Life Is A Life.