Death (sort of depressing)

[Turing]

Lets see now

Pet losses:

1 Guinea pig.
1 Kitten, decided to jump out my window, didn't land on its feet. Took a few days to die, though
3 Grown cats, died of various reasons, mostly related to old age.
1 German shepherd. Old, had to be put down due to various age-related ailments.
3 adult rats. All died of old age.
1 rat pup. Girlfriend dropped it and it broke its spine. Had to be put down.

Family:

1 Great grandmother. 97 years is a pretty ripe age, she even did her own gardening up until she was 94.
1 Grandmother, mothers side. Died from cancer, never actually met her.
1 Grandmother, fathers side. Died from normal old age death causes. Never met her.
1 Grandfather, fathers side. Died from old age a couple of years ago. Never met him
1 Uncle. Alcoholic, dead by suicide.
1 Aunt. Died from cancer.
1 Step-cousin. Suicide

Also, have lost:

1 Close friend, suicide, back when I was a teenager.
1 Regular friend, Ecstasy overdose, year 2000. Technically, not ecstasy overdose but bad reaction to it due to not haven taken his epilepsy medication.

I suppose I'm pretty blasé about death. Its something that happens all the time to someone, somewhere in the world. Nothing special about it happening to someone I know.
We all have to go sometime, so no reason to make a big fuss about it, even though of course it can be sad when someone dies at an early age or due to unexpected causes,

 

[THEfog101]

Pleading with you? No non-human animal knows what death is or could ever express any form of suicidal thought. They simply aren't self-aware or capable of such comprehension.

I would like to see such proof.
Until I do, I would like to say one thing to you: Stop talking out of your ass. That's my thing.

Proof that an animal doesn't understand death or could ever contemplate suicide? Did you seriously just ask for proof of that? XD

The next time you see a cow riddled with depression, threatening to jump from the water tower, take a photo and send it to me. I'd love to see it.

I love how you've admitted that it can't be proven yet you state it as a fact.

No non-human animal has ever committed suicide. Ever. Never happened. Ever.

All those animals 'rescued' from the street and put down at the pound - none of them ever ended their own suffering. No abused animal ever took its own life. If the dog did indeed plead and beg to die to free it from it's immense suffering, would it not have killed itself?

Honestly, people, animal suicide? -_-

Where the hell did you get the idea of animal suicide from!? The discussion was about animals being aware and understanding of the idea of death.

Exactly, Even if it was about animal suicide, it is not possible due to a animals will to survive outweighs any other emotion they may feel. Animals know death all to well, Ive helped at a veterinary surgery for a small amount of time as work experience, you can see it in their eyes when they know they are dying from something. There was a Scottish terrier that came in after being hit by a car, after the initial shock wore off the dog kind of just gave up, you could see it in his eyes and actions. No suicidal tendencies, he just knew what was coming and embraced it, died about 5 minutes after coming in, had severe internal bleeding. it wasn't just the effect of desanguination, he just went peacefully, not struggling to their weak end like some cats we have seen.

 

[Anah'ya]

Also, folks, think it through. Animals are not people.

No no, don't get all hippie on me, think it through.

1) People can get health insurance. Animals? Not so much. So while it may be theoretically possible to save an animal that's been dismembered by a car or ravaged by cancer, a lot of folks simply can't afford the INSANE medical bills. And there's no one to help them.

2) People can receive counseling to deal with things like this. Animals? They're basically in it alone, thanks to the language barrier.

1) wrong

2) wrong

*grins*

There is health insurance for animals, for the exact reason you just laid out: The expensive bills. And there are insane amounts of dogs and cats (and horses to some extend) and a boat-load of birds living happily still with artificial limbs.

There is therapy for animals. They just don't need as much as we do because they lack the I am so important, I need help ego-centrical-bullshit. However some species receive an equivalent of support that could be compared to our shrinks; uneducated humans merely do not see these gestures as such. But they boil down to the same principle.

No non-human animal has ever committed suicide. Ever. Never happened. Ever.

All those animals 'rescued' from the street and put down at the pound - none of them ever ended their own suffering. No abused animal ever took its own life. If the dog did indeed plead and beg to die to free it from it's immense suffering, would it not have killed itself?

Honestly, people, animal suicide? -_-

Wrong.

Dolphins commit suicide by holding their breaths. Elephants waste away after their human(!) partner dies. Dogs succumb to separation depression after their owner dies.

These are rare cases, but they happen. And I would in all honesty give the animals more credit here than a human. Least an animal isn't as selfish and idiotic as a human. Thats why I prefer them.




Anyone who can claim that animals are incapable of feelings or that none of them are able to understand "death" is ignorant. 'tis simple as that. If you walk through life with your eyes closed like that I pity you. Quite a lot.

 

[guntotingtomcat]

Yes, I've encountered some death. Got to say, though, a family member dying is a whole lot worse than a pet dying.

 

[dochmbi]

Pleading with you? No non-human animal knows what death is or could ever express any form of suicidal thought. They simply aren't self-aware or capable of such comprehension.

Read up:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-animal/

 

[guntotingtomcat]

Also, folks, think it through. Animals are not people.

No no, don't get all hippie on me, think it through.

1) People can get health insurance. Animals? Not so much. So while it may be theoretically possible to save an animal that's been dismembered by a car or ravaged by cancer, a lot of folks simply can't afford the INSANE medical bills. And there's no one to help them.

2) People can receive counseling to deal with things like this. Animals? They're basically in it alone, thanks to the language barrier.

1) wrong

2) wrong

*grins*

There is health insurance for animals, for the exact reason you just laid out: The expensive bills. And there are insane amounts of dogs and cats (and horses to some extend) and a boat-load of birds living happily still with artificial limbs.

There is therapy for animals. They just don't need as much as we do because they lack the I am so important, I need help ego-centrical-bullshit. However some species receive an equivalent of support that could be compared to our shrinks; uneducated humans merely do not see these gestures as such. But they boil down to the same principle.

No non-human animal has ever committed suicide. Ever. Never happened. Ever.

All those animals 'rescued' from the street and put down at the pound - none of them ever ended their own suffering. No abused animal ever took its own life. If the dog did indeed plead and beg to die to free it from it's immense suffering, would it not have killed itself?

Honestly, people, animal suicide? -_-

Wrong.

Dolphins commit suicide by holding their breaths. Elephants waste away after their human(!) partner dies. Dogs succumb to separation depression after their owner dies.

These are rare cases, but they happen. And I would in all honesty give the animals more credit here than a human. Least an animal isn't as selfish and idiotic as a human. Thats why I prefer them.




Anyone who can claim that animals are incapable of feelings or that none of them are able to understand "death" is ignorant. 'tis simple as that. If you walk through life with your eyes closed like that I pity you. Quite a lot.

Animal feelings are kind of like god:
Totally unprovable! Why? Because none of us are fucking animals!! You cannot know how something feels unless you are that something!! Including other people!! You can only make an educated guess OR you can project your own feelings, which is what most pet owners do.

 

[aubreym]

SNIPPY

Humans are animals, by the way.

No, non-human animals cannot understand death. They instinctively avoid things that may come to harm them - such as predators - but they have no understanding of their heart or their brain or any of that, nor how they are relevant to their survival. Point a gun at a whale, strap C4 to dog, take an animal to the vet to be put down - do any of this and the animal will have no idea at all what is going on. They simply do not possess the capacity to comprehend life in terms of finality and part of course. They can and do replicate the emotions of their surroundings in a shallow sense; if a dog's owner is depressed, they too may well be, as they are therefore receiving less attention, less activity and there is less sensory arousal occurring around them as said owner is likely less active and energetically moving about.

There is no scientifically documented study, peer reviewed and accepted by the medical community of any animal ever committing suicide. Ever. There's more evidence that Big Foot exists than that dolphins suffocate themselves.

Pity me all you like. I couldn't care less how much of your brain power you spend thinking of me.

You are being beautifully rational, i applaud you, it is the animal's instincts that provoke this single understanding of death.

 

[Anah'ya]

Animal feelings are kind of like god:
Totally unprovable! Why? Because none of us are fucking animals!! You cannot know how something feels unless you are that something!! Including other people!! You can only make an educated guess OR you can project your own feelings, which is what most pet owners do.

Wrong.

Human emotion is an instinct, a chemical reaction. Grief can cause physical pain not because it is so special, but because it is programmed into us as means to survive. We merely blow it out of proportions since we were "gifted" with a brain and since our society no longer depends on the simple, down to earth instincts we once relied on. Pain felt when someone is lost is a warning from your body. How you interpret it is up to you.

To think that animals do not have this chemical warning system despite their biological similarities to us is rather ignorant.

... but if you want to look at the whole emotional thing of things: Look up Elephants and their human handlers and what happens when the handler dies, or research the behavior pattern of dolphins in captivity---or look up elephants and what the fuck they are doing when they go visit the bones of the dead. Go further and delve into the behavior of some parrots, how they form a bond with their partner and how they change when the lose their "other half."

Just because you blunder around blindfolded doesn't mean it's not there.

 

[Astoria]

SNIPPY

Humans are animals, by the way.

No, non-human animals cannot understand death. They instinctively avoid things that may come to harm them - such as predators - but they have no understanding of their heart or their brain or any of that, nor how they are relevant to their survival. Point a gun at a whale, strap C4 to dog, take an animal to the vet to be put down - do any of this and the animal will have no idea at all what is going on. They simply do not possess the capacity to comprehend life in terms of finality and part of course. They can and do replicate the emotions of their surroundings in a shallow sense; if a dog's owner is depressed, they too may well be, as they are therefore receiving less attention, less activity and there is less sensory arousal occurring around them as said owner is likely less active and energetically moving about.

There is no scientifically documented study, peer reviewed and accepted by the medical community of any animal ever committing suicide. Ever. There's more evidence that Big Foot exists than that dolphins suffocate themselves.

Pity me all you like. I couldn't care less how much of your brain power you spend thinking of me.

Ok, I think this discussion has gotten seriously side tracked.
The main point I think people are trying to make is that when a animal has a condition like cancer and it is inoperable then it is kinder to put the dog down rather than drag its death out.

The reason the putting down of pets should not be compared to euthanasia is that humans are more aware of what is happening to them and thus they have the ability to make a well thought out decision for themselves whereas animals can't.

It's sad that many people (myself included) have forgotten about the original point of this thread so maybe we can just be nice from now on?

 

[Bernzz]

SNIPPY

No, non-human animals cannot understand death. They instinctively avoid things that may come to harm them - such as predators - but they have no understanding of their heart or their brain or any of that, nor how they are relevant to their survival. Point a gun at a whale, strap C4 to dog, take an animal to the vet to be put down - do any of this and the animal will have no idea at all what is going on.

Dear god, you don't know when to quit, do you?

I wonder why a whale doesn't know what a gun does to it. I wonder why a dog would only be curious about having C4 strapped to it. I wonder why a dog doesn't understand that it's about to be put down at a vet.

These are all human inventions. The animal's instincts don't tell them what the hell a gun is, unless they've encountered it and its effects before, and lived from it. A dog wouldn't know the effects of C4, would it now?

A dog would see the vet as a place where possibly unpleasant things happen to it, because it would have experienced vet trips before for other issues (injuries, wounds, etc.). It doesn't know that it's about to die because it hasn't experienced death yet...due to it being alive and all.

Basically, non-human animals understand the concept of death when their instincts know what actually causes death and what doesn't. It understands that 'predator = death'. It doesn't understand that 'shiny human object = death' because instincts haven't taught it to understand that.

EDIT:

Ok, I think this discussion has gotten seriously side tracked.
The main point I think people are trying to make is that when a animal has a condition like cancer and it is inoperable then it is kinder to put the dog down rather than drag its death out.

The reason the putting down of pets should not be compared to euthanasia is that humans are more aware of what is happening to them and thus they have the ability to make a well thought out decision for themselves whereas animals can't.

It's sad that many people (myself included) have forgotten about the original point of this thread so maybe we can just be nice from now on?

I'm sorry, I didn't see this, as I was typing my reply when you posted. I'll try to keep it on topic and nice to poor Hammy now, if everyone else does.

 

[omega 616]

inherited from his dad...
she was 12 years old and the cancer has spread far beyond being treatable.
Basicly every organ was infected.

Was this a male or female?

My dog was put down due to hemorrhaging from just about every organ, ever see a dog cough up blood? Not nice, it's like a cat with a hair ball.

Had that dog for about 10 years, after I was told he had been put down I carried on playing runescape (leave me alone).

I could go on with family members and such who have died but the list is fairly long (had alot of pets well over 200) but it's quicker to just say, I have only cried for one out of the two family deaths.

Makes me feel bad ...

 

[Skylants]

My Grandad was a very healthy and hard working individual. He went dancing and walking and the like whenever her could. He took holidays and cruises and had a beautiful life.

One night he felt a pain in his lower torso and when to the hospital to have it checked out. He was diagnosed with a blood clot and died during the operation to have it removed. This happened in July...

It's really tough getting to grips with him not being around any more. I can't begin to imagine how my Grandma must feel; they were together for 50 years.

 

[Denamic]

Sorry if I'm getting you guys down. My question to you guys is: Have you ever had an encounter with death inside the family or pets?

Of course.
Pretty much everyone has.
Just recently, my ex girlfriend (Broke up due to distance, remained on good terms and stayed in touch) died from leukemia, and just days later, my cat was put down because he had an inoperable tumour in his head and it was getting so bad that he was perpetually suffering.
That was the worst week I've had this side of the millennium.

 

[easternflame]

Pleading with you? No non-human animal knows what death is or could ever express any form of suicidal thought. They simply aren't self-aware or capable of such comprehension.[/quote]
I think the dog is dead and making him feel bad doesn't change anything.

My dog was put to sleep yesterday after being diagnosed with cancer...
This has really gotten me down, since I grew up with this dog, and now he's gone.
I couldn't even say goodbye, since a friend of my family was watching over him...
Sorry if I'm getting you guys down. My question to you guys is: Have you ever had an encounter with death inside the family or pets?
Edit: Treatment wasn't an option. It was a form of cancer that was inherited from his dad...
she was 12 years old and the cancer has spread far beyond being treatable.
Basicly every organ was infected.

Also I want to tell you very brave of you because in the end not many people have the guts to do that and believe me it was the humane, selfless choice, you did the right thing and even if my words don't matter, I salute you.

 

[Holy_Handgrenade]

Snip

 

[voetballeeuw]

I'm sorry for your loss. You did the right thing regardless of what anyone says. You just to keep on keeping on.

 

[natster43]

I am sorry to hear that. I have lost 2 cats. We had them both since as long as I can remember. The second one died about 2 or 3 years ago. It really sucks when you lose a pet. I have also lost my great aunt many years ago, which was also very terrible.