Death to the Mana Bar!

[WilliamRLBaker]

Well least to say in the movies and book gandolf casted about a dozen spells so how would one know if he was running out of mana?

 

[quantumsoul]

Magic was pretty overpowered in Fable 2 & 3. My sword was just dead weight.

Populous and Black & White also had very powerful magic; if you don't mind playing an RTS instead.

 

[honestdiscussioner]

I always thought you should have two bars. One would be a stamina bar, and the other your mana bar. The mana bar is really hard to deplete, but if you use spells quickly in succession, your stamina bar drops, and your mana bar depletes faster.

Think about it in DragonBall Z terms. In any game ever, you rarely have to conserve power, knock your opponent back a few yards and you can charge up to full no matter how long you've been fighting. If you had a big energy bar that would take a few minutes of constant blasting to deplete, but doing so would make it next to impossible to get it back in a timely fashion, this would balance it out far better than a simple mana bar.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

I, as a dedicated RPG fan have often been dumbfounded by magic systems in games. Why in a world that calls itself High Fantasy do I have the magical capabilities of a real life magician? When SO much of modern fantasy is based on the work of Tolkien why do I "run out of spells"? Gandalf didnt have this problem! Even HARRY POTTER didnt have this GLARING HORRID limitation! I speak of course of the mana bar that seemingly age old mechanic that has you unable to summon up so much as a puff of smoke at just the wrong instant to lead to your demise at the hands of that smelly warrior! While recent games have gone the route of using cooldowns instead I have to ask why limit it at all? For game balance? The ENTIRE point of magic is to be unbalanced. I want to summon skeleton armies from my fallen foes and conjure firestorms to destroy cities in an instant! I dont want to retreat helplessly while waiting for my magical talents to recharge! So.... who feels they have the wit to finally defeat this horrid blemish on modern gaming? Who among you can help put this flawed concept to final rest? WHO AMONG YOU CAN...oh screw it! Anybody got any ideas?

Erm...no, not really. I don't think that's ever been the case for magic.

And I like how you scoff at the 'game balance' argument. You know what's also imbalanced? Iraqi insurgents fighting on level footing with American soldiers. But because I don't want 50% of my online matches to be spent on the receiving end of curbstomps, I don't mind the suspension of disbelief.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Because it'd be worlds and worlds of casters and no one would even play anymore since apparently everyone would be busy conjuring firestorms.

There are other potential limiting factors for magic. Maybe it takes time to cast. Maybe the spells need to be precise, and a character attempting to cast something beyond their skill level risks catastrophic backfire. Maybe wizards can only control so much magic at once before something slips past their attention and wreaks havoc. Maybe magic requires the cooperation of stubborn and unreliable supernatural entities. Or maybe you have a vancian-style spell slot system. (A la the original Jack Vance or a la DND, either way.)

 

[OldNewNewOld]

A game without a challenge is not interesting. => Magic without limitations is not challenging. => The game is not interesting.

 

[BFEL]

The idea behind the mana bar that I always understood is it's not that your character "runs out of magic" it's that it's a separate endurance bar based on their mental capacity. (hence why intellect is usually the stat that raises the max mana you have) The bigger the spell the more energy and concentration it requires to cast it. As you can imagine this would eventually tire out the mage to the point of simply not being able to muster the strength to cast more spells. Of course the stronger the mage the less taxing it is for them to cast your giant spells hence why typically in a game your mana bar is meant to increase to reflect the growth in magical fortitude that allows them to cast more taxing spells without encountering mental exhaustion.

To me it makes more sense than an arbitrary time after casting that you can't cast the same spell or another spell.

Well lets run with this example. In the real world does a mathematician become unable to solve 2+2 because they just solved for the nature of the universe or something ridiculous? No. So why does "mental fortitude" mean that after the magical version of a long math problem you cant use the magic equivalent of 2+2?

 

[Giest4life]

I, as a dedicated RPG fan have often been dumbfounded by magic systems in games. Why in a world that calls itself High Fantasy do I have the magical capabilities of a real life magician? When SO much of modern fantasy is based on the work of Tolkien why do I "run out of spells"? Gandalf didnt have this problem!

In the LotR (the novel) there is absolutely no overt display of magic by Gandalf, Saruman, Souron, or the Witch King. Magic was--ironically--mystical and was more about mental impressions than physical manifestations of power (same with the one the one Ring; it has no physical powers other than making you invisible). So, yeah, most fans don't realize this and I just wanted to get that out there.


OT: Not interested in much else you have to say, but it seems self-evident that some measure of restriction has to be placed to add challenge. You may use cheat codes available to circumvent that challenge.

EDIT: Made some spelling corrections

 

[The_Evermind]

Games without mana bars can be balanced, take for instance magicka where you can cast as many spells as you want as fast as you want but the sheer number and strength of the enemies makes the game balanced. Sure you can unleash an unstoppable death beam that stop your enemies in its tracks and kills them in seconds but that isn't necessarily kill the 20 other enemies barreling down on you all with the power to utterly wreak you if they can get close. So just because a game doesn't have a mana bar doesn't mean that it cant be balanced just that it needs a different take on fighting then most games do.

EDIT: Also the most powerful spells, the ones that can say, instantly kill opponents of set fire to half the stage are just as dangerous to you as the enemy, for example one of your spells is called crash to desktop and will instantly kill one thing on the stage by covering them with a mini blue screen of death and then making them disappear, however when I say it will kill one thing on screen it is just that, you have no control over what it will kill and it has just as big of a chance of insta-killing you.

 

[conflictofinterests]

Obviously you've been reading the wrong books. Harry Dresden has an allotment of spells he can cast before he kills himself in the casting. x3

Anyways, I don't so much mind them. I prefer a sense of one drawing from one's pool of magical energy for every magical work one does as opposed to "I already cast this, I have to wait three more seconds to cast it again."

Just a personal preference, though.

 

[mikespoff]

When SO much of modern fantasy is based on the work of Tolkien why do I "run out of spells"? Gandalf didnt have this problem!

Actually, Gandalf had a functional equivalent: exhaustion. When the Balrog shows up in Moria (in Fellowship of the Ring) he expresses concern because he's already tired; he's worried that he may not have enough energy left for the confrontation with such a powerful opponent.

I thought this was going to be about Yahtzees bar in Australia, I am actually kind of disappointed as it would have made an interesting topic.

Yeah, that was my initial reaction too. And they're just opening one up in my town, so I'm kinda keen on checking it out!

 

[Psycho Cat Industries]

Well if you have no limit and yet must limit with weakness then you remove the point of having magic in the first place when an arrow in the gut will be delivered faster and probably with more damage to a robed one.Maybe long as hell spells would work,mind you,that is a limit which weakens the point here.

 

[Giantpanda602]

I like to think of it, as some games put also like to think of it, as you just getting tired. You don't have the effort to cast spells anymore. If they make the world, they can make spells exhausting.

 

[mikespoff]

...why limit it at all? For game balance? The ENTIRE point of magic is to be unbalanced. I want to summon skeleton armies from my fallen foes and conjure firestorms to destroy cities in an instant!
...
EDIT: Ok, to clarify I do NOT believe a game should just plonk you down with limitless power.

See, it's pretty hard to reconcile these two statements. It sounds like there's already a solution to your problem which is implemented in the single-player version of most games: it's called cheat codes.

 

[Hashime]

Also totally thought you were talking about Yahtzee's bar.

I am also a fan of the mana bar, it makes you plan what to use.

 

[JMeganSnow]

If it was just you against equally super-awesome mages and massive armies that could get pretty epic.

This is pretty much the premise of Exalted.

Hmmmm what is this Exalted you speak of?

Linky. [http://www.white-wolf.com/exalted]

 

[JMeganSnow]

I'd like to see a game where it was -focused- on magic, and you could basically flip out and do all sorts of crazy shit. Grand Theft Arcana kind of deal.

I would totally buy that.

 

[The Grim Ace]

Really should have just said magic bar, I was about to rush to Australia in defense of a bar we need here in Cali.

OT: I know during frustrating boss battles I might say the same thing but the fact is mages already get away with so many different things that making them gods would give no one any reason to be any other class but it would make the game less of a game and more of button mashing in between plot points. If that's the case just cut out the controller breaking middleman and grab a book.

 

[trooper6]

EDIT: Also the most powerful spells, the ones that can say, instantly kill opponents of set fire to half the stage are just as dangerous to you as the enemy, for example one of your spells is called crash to desktop and will instantly kill one thing on the stage by covering them with a mini blue screen of death and then making them disappear, however when I say it will kill one thing on screen it is just that, you have no control over what it will kill and it has just as big of a chance of insta-killing you.

This does not sound fun to me.

 

[CheckD3]

The problem is it can break a game if you don't have the balance. If you need an example, look at Fable. I believe it was Fable 2 that removed that blue colored bar to give you unlimited magic, and what could you do? Spam area of effect spells to the point of insanity and every normal enemy shrivles before you like an ant does to a magnifying glass

It brings up the point of "Why do I carry a sword when I can burn people over and over with the same spell?" It's like how Yahtzee talked about in Force Unleased (2 I think), on how over powered Starkiller is, what's the point of having saber when he can kill everything just by using the force.