Death to the Mana Bar!
- Thread starter BFEL
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Creation casting.BFEL said:
You start with basic effects and add them together to make a spell.
For a simple example:
Mage has three skills: 1)Damage 2)Range 3)Cast
Combat begins. Mage uses Damage, and then uses Range, and then Cast. Congrats, you've just made magic missile!
Or, Damage+Damage = Touch blast. Or Range + Range = Far away poke.
As character progresses through the game, or levels up, they acquire more spell parts to build spells from, like the elemental set or area shapes. If you wanted more restriction at lower levels, only allow a certain number of skills to be stacked until Cast is used. Balance with other mechanics comes from the time it takes to make bigger spells. Cool downs are unnecessary, because only very weak spells are spammable.
This is fine for straight up evocation style nuking, and even crowd control charms and sleeps, but party buffs and summons might be trickier. Admittedly it would be fun to cast something like Range+Range+Range+Summon, but I can see that being a little unfair to other classes. And someone casting Damage+Buff party would be the greatest griefer ever!
But, then again, it's not like most games have a strength bar where you can't swing your sword if you've swung it too many times, so why should magic be limited? Perhaps the key is to limit mages' abilities...maybe have a few lesser spells be unlimited, so you're not left running for your life at the end of a long dungeon, or perhaps just toning down what magic can do so it doesn't need to be arbitrarily limited to maintain balance.AbsoluteVirtue18 said:
One thing about magic is that its usually portrayed as something that draws off you're energy and in some magical worlds, you're life force.
So you could maybe think of the mana bar as you're "energy" think about it, you cast a spell to shoot lightning. how much strain do you think that would put on you're body?
OR you're life force itself, heh. have fun with that. basically, without a limit of some kind it doesn't even make sense in real life. Harry potter had limits. his version of magic basically used the rule of "it doesn't tire me out but neither does it tire out the other guys" and you had people lobbing gigantic spells non-stop. i think that would be kinda...meh for a game. also: not being able to do anything without a wand. ewwwwwww....
As for Gandalf, I got the implication that he was highly skilled, and very old (cough cough, more the implication) And because of this he was able to do...magic...to you know...make a beam of light..and uh, light up a staff...and uh...throw his voice...yeah...Gandalf was a good wizard for his world, but when you think about it i can't really think of many things gandalf did off the top of my head that was actually big boom impressive, or gigantic spells (the closest i can think of in that world is the blizzard that was called up on top of the mountains)
So you could maybe think of the mana bar as you're "energy" think about it, you cast a spell to shoot lightning. how much strain do you think that would put on you're body?
OR you're life force itself, heh. have fun with that. basically, without a limit of some kind it doesn't even make sense in real life. Harry potter had limits. his version of magic basically used the rule of "it doesn't tire me out but neither does it tire out the other guys" and you had people lobbing gigantic spells non-stop. i think that would be kinda...meh for a game. also: not being able to do anything without a wand. ewwwwwww....
As for Gandalf, I got the implication that he was highly skilled, and very old (cough cough, more the implication) And because of this he was able to do...magic...to you know...make a beam of light..and uh, light up a staff...and uh...throw his voice...yeah...Gandalf was a good wizard for his world, but when you think about it i can't really think of many things gandalf did off the top of my head that was actually big boom impressive, or gigantic spells (the closest i can think of in that world is the blizzard that was called up on top of the mountains)
that guy talks shit, Gandalf flew through outerspace and went through one end of middle earth all the way to china. Perhaps he didn't cast many spells in the movies for reasons other than that he couldn't.trooper6 said:
Gandalf atleast level 50
Legion said:
though seems a little late (but like more then 20 years) to be complaining about an 'MP' system to govern magic usage
The reason the mana bar is gone is because it makes the game easier. Say, you're in the middle of the boss battle and you ran out of mana for your cura. You must go to your item screen to pick a potion. See? That's challange. Mass Effect 2, no mana bar but there IS a recharge wait. That is some what easier. Still, the game keeps it hard by blocking every one of you powers untill the previously used one is done recharging.
You can balance magic without mana. The warhammer fantasy roleplaying game (long long name it is) does it quite well. So does shadowrun (kinda)
WFRPG just adds a risk to casting. As in many rpgs dice are rolled(10 sided here). You need a certain number to perform a spell, 1-10 for easy ones, above for more complex ones. Every time you hit a certain number, or 2 or more dice got the same result, something bad will happen.
So the thing is. use just 1 die and the risk is low,to non-existant,but the spells you will be able to cast are very weak or wont work.
use more dice and your chances will rise, or you can cast powerfull spells, but the risks is getting higher to "burn out", get (non)permanent damage, or even accidentally summon a hostile demon.
shadowrun casts with stamina (spirit damage or whatever its called) the more your character is used to use magic, the better he is trained, the higher is his chance to get out of spellcasting without taking "mana-drain". If you want to cast a spell more powerfull than usual, the amount of damage it does to your stamina/spirit is higher and your chance to withstand it is lower.
So casting a lot of weak spells might work out with no or little exhaustion, while powerful spells or empowered spells can easily leave you in a condition between headache and fainting.
these are both nice ways, that are more complicated to programm and to balance, but they work.And they do work well.
WFRPG just adds a risk to casting. As in many rpgs dice are rolled(10 sided here). You need a certain number to perform a spell, 1-10 for easy ones, above for more complex ones. Every time you hit a certain number, or 2 or more dice got the same result, something bad will happen.
So the thing is. use just 1 die and the risk is low,to non-existant,but the spells you will be able to cast are very weak or wont work.
use more dice and your chances will rise, or you can cast powerfull spells, but the risks is getting higher to "burn out", get (non)permanent damage, or even accidentally summon a hostile demon.
shadowrun casts with stamina (spirit damage or whatever its called) the more your character is used to use magic, the better he is trained, the higher is his chance to get out of spellcasting without taking "mana-drain". If you want to cast a spell more powerfull than usual, the amount of damage it does to your stamina/spirit is higher and your chance to withstand it is lower.
So casting a lot of weak spells might work out with no or little exhaustion, while powerful spells or empowered spells can easily leave you in a condition between headache and fainting.
these are both nice ways, that are more complicated to programm and to balance, but they work.And they do work well.
BFEL said:
The mana bar simply represents your Chi or spiritual strength, and that has a limit on it, because your mind ,and body can only handle so much stress. even the fantasy worl has to has balance, and limits.
Also if you think about it in terms of reality. A warrior will get tired from swinging a sword too long and that's physical. Magic is a mix of many different human abilities mental and physical primarily due to concentration. Honestly imagine trying to heal someone. You are basically fixing the body and reconstructing it to an extent. I don't know about you but after doing that too many times, I think I'd pass out.
I'd like to see a game where it was -focused- on magic, and you could basically flip out and do all sorts of crazy shit. Grand Theft Arcana kind of deal.
Fine. You can have your fancy ass spells that are fucking OP, and in return, if I stab you, or better yet, shoot you, your fancy-ass robe does nothing.
But seriously. Are you joking? Because it'd be worlds and worlds of casters and no one would even play anymore since apparently everyone would be busy conjuring firestorms.
But seriously. Are you joking? Because it'd be worlds and worlds of casters and no one would even play anymore since apparently everyone would be busy conjuring firestorms.
This.Legion said:
Alas, lack of creativity. Video games are computers and computers do numbers best, so a numbers-based way to keep magic in check is the simplest thing to implement. The many other ways to limit magic take actual work to balance them out and are much harder than just 'higher power = higher number of MP required'. And if there isn't any check at all then magic cannot be that useful (as it would make non-magic using dudes obselete) so it's just a glittery sword.
Also if you want to raise legions of the dead play Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup as a Yredelemnul follower. You'll get the power to raise legions of the dead by like level 8 (it's not level-based, but you'll probably be around level 8 when you get it). Carry the black torch! Raise the idle dead!
I like the way Final Fantasy XIII did it. There is no MP or mana, spells are simply used the same way as any other ability or attack, but there's a waiting period (via the ATB system used) between spells. That can easily be explained in-universe as the character simply regaining a bit of energy, catching their breath and whatnot, before casting more spells, just as they do with any normal attack. It's so much more realistic, and makes more sense, and is still very well balanced.
Otherwise, although this isn't a game, there is a books series (the Three Worlds Cycle) where magic is known as the 'Secret Art', and is only ever used at a price. The idea is that when using the Secret Art, it takes a lot of strength and energy away from the wielder, because they're using their own energy to power the spells, or channelling power from somewhere else, and it drains the body of energy. Again, quite realistic (as much as a magic-based plot idea can be realistic...), and it prevents characters who can use the Art from being overpowered and unbalanced. Otherwise all the conflicts in the novels could easily be solved by a single overpowered mage casting a few spells.
Otherwise, although this isn't a game, there is a books series (the Three Worlds Cycle) where magic is known as the 'Secret Art', and is only ever used at a price. The idea is that when using the Secret Art, it takes a lot of strength and energy away from the wielder, because they're using their own energy to power the spells, or channelling power from somewhere else, and it drains the body of energy. Again, quite realistic (as much as a magic-based plot idea can be realistic...), and it prevents characters who can use the Art from being overpowered and unbalanced. Otherwise all the conflicts in the novels could easily be solved by a single overpowered mage casting a few spells.
Play Bloodline Champions. There is no such thing as a mana bar. There's still cooldowns, but it makes sense that way. Effectively, it's an arena game that won't have you playing a 30-40 minute mana fight and then win when the other healers are out of mana. It's a game where you have to punish the enemy when his escape abiliies/strong heals are on cooldown. It's about timing windows, and exploiting weaknesses while you can.
well gandalf was absolutely exhausted after pwning an outfit of orcs, soooBFEL said:
but things like stamina can only really carry over in bar form, at least until we invent true virtual reality matrix style spinal tap thing. which, btw, would kick ass. i can't think of a better use for the matrix, as a video game.
