Death to the Mana Bar!

[DarkhoIlow]

Balance is key.

Let's say that even with an infinite mana pool mages will be extremely overpowered and it will tend to get boring very fast.

I haven't seen a RPG/fantasy game that implements the mana bar and the mage class where the mages/spellcasters/sorcerers(whatever you wanna call them)don't have the most powerful spells in the game,playing something else than a caster being a waste of your time and trying to lie to yourself that Warrior,Rogue,Hunter or whatever can do as much damage as a mage.Let's not kid ourselves;yes usually these "holy shit" spells come at a later level,but it doesn't change the fact that even with a mana bar they dominate everything else.

I may or may not have understood the OP's post regarding the mana bar,but that's my take on it.

PS: Nerf frost mages in WoW to the ground please.

 

[EradiusLore]

I, as a dedicated RPG fan have often been dumbfounded by magic systems in games. Why in a world that calls itself High Fantasy do I have the magical capabilities of a real life magician? When SO much of modern fantasy is based on the work of Tolkien why do I "run out of spells"? Gandalf didnt have this problem! Even HARRY POTTER didnt have this GLARING HORRID limitation! I speak of course of the mana bar that seemingly age old mechanic that has you unable to summon up so much as a puff of smoke at just the wrong instant to lead to your demise at the hands of that smelly warrior! While recent games have gone the route of using cooldowns instead I have to ask why limit it at all? For game balance? The ENTIRE point of magic is to be unbalanced. I want to summon skeleton armies from my fallen foes and conjure firestorms to destroy cities in an instant! I dont want to retreat helplessly while waiting for my magical talents to recharge! So.... who feels they have the wit to finally defeat this horrid blemish on modern gaming? Who among you can help put this flawed concept to final rest? WHO AMONG YOU CAN...oh screw it! Anybody got any ideas?

EDIT: Ok, to clarify I do NOT believe a game should just plonk you down with limitless power. What Im trying to get at is that theres better ways to do it then "you ran out of spells? haha take my sword in your gut!" For one thing I believe that even an apprentice mage shouldnt have to deal with running out of spells but should obviously be limited by something more sensible, like say all your apprentice spells are mostly crap. Also on the name of the thread...I didnt even know yahtzee hung out at a place called the mana bar...and I find it absolutely hilarious that this fact got me 1000 views in one day.

i like to think the mana bar represents the mages stamina. if you think about it, a mage must get real tired throwing out insane spells so it stands to reason that he will eventully meet his limit and wont be able to do so anymore, thats where the mana bar comes in!

 

[BrionJames]

No one would want to take the time to use a mage that you had to spend, I don't know, 40+ hours turning into a unrivaled killing machine. Even if someone did, universally almost no one would want to play with you because of the imbalance of power.

 

[ThisIsSnake]

Mana bars in games are a conspiracy created by the mana potion companies in order to make us buy their products. (not far from the truth in certain MMO's).

I'd like to see a different style used kind of inspired by Dragon Age/Naruto/EVE Online.

Your character has a mana system similar to the chakra system in Naruto (or capacitor system in EVE online) where a basic person would have a mana supply at 100%.

Say they want to buff their weapon, movement speed, strengthen skin, muscles etc. They would need to focus some mana to that area of their bodies. Lowering their mana supply to 80% to maintain the effect. Blocking off that 20% from being used until the cancel the effect. This is basically how it works in dragon age.

The remaining mana is used either as a buffer zone against anti-magic effects. Someone stabs you with mana knives or some other bollocks that attacks the buff effect, 20% of the reserved mana is used to block or instantly replace the mana being used. Reducing mana to 60% with 20% used to maintain the effect and 20% now blocked off until it recharges (at a reasonably slow rate). (similar to capacitor in EVE)

The other use will be to 'project' effects. Like a fireball thrown from a hand, wind from beneath to increase jumping ability or a blade beam launched from a sword. These would have charge times, tracking speeds and power amounts based on how much mana the player dedicates to them. This allows for personalisation of the player character. A character can throw out 60 quick charge, slow fireballs which could act as a barrier from attack, wait a few seconds for some mana to recharge then apply a speed and tracking increase to them creating a machine gun volley style fireball attack that begins as a shield. Or they could focus on buffing maintained effects (like 75% is spent increasing power with 25% used to apply spikes in speed and strength) wait until they best the opponent in melee (manage to knock them down or otherwise leave them open) then remove all those buffing effects (back up to 75% ish mana) and release all the reserved mana in a romance explosion of DBZ proportions (leaving them massively exposed if it gets dodged etc).

How would these mages remain balanced against a rogue archetype or warrior archetype? they won't. That's why classes are outdated, everyone potentially has access to every ability out there (like EVE). The armour and weapons chosen by the player will affect the players proficiency (Full plate armour is harder to project mana out of so it favours self buffing, but insulates their mana reducing the % used by buffs). It's not perfect but it's different and allows people to create a truly unique character.

TL/DR: I agree with the OP

 

[spacewalker]

fable did away with mana bars, didnt go all that well.

 

[Crises^]

have a kinda double edge sword style where you have unlimitied spells and no mana bar but the more powerful the spell or the more you use the spell it makes your Defense damage multiplier increase where say you have 100 health and you fire 1 fireball bang 5 % increase so if someone hits you it does the normal damage then 5% more on top now if you use a big massive splee it spikes to say 45% so if someone hits you then it does its normal damage and 45% ontop and have the % increase unlimited to if you spam spells it can go up to like 3000% so you could Die very quickly.

but the % declines say from 5000-1000% takes 3secs then 1000-100% takes 4 secs and 100-0% takes 5 secs so its all about managing the strentgh of the spells you fire and how many you have with how many enemies are around you and might hit you.

 

[squid5580]

3 words

D & D

That is all

 

[JoshGod]

Becaues otherwise the most powerful spell would be spammed, ruining any challenge taking away skill or thought, you might as well just have one long QTE.

That takes timing, though, which defeats the "no skill" aspect.

How does it take timing? You have a big on screen prompt. Not to mention that it would be very boring.

For a fraction of a second. Otherwise it's not a "quick-time" event, it's just a PROMPT.

QTE's are still easy.

For people with decent reflexes, yes. However, that still takes SOME skill. Honestly you've beaten the dead horse of my original not-that-funny joke until it resembles mashed potatoes. Horse-flavored mashed potatoes.

You think you can distract me with your potatoes do you? Well you'll have to do better than th..

 

[iLikeHippos]

The mana bar represents your current resources you have in stock for battle. It's like having bombs of various effects on your person.

If / once you run out of them, you'll have to rely on something else as your resources have dwindled away.
It's a simple yet entertaining mechanic, arguably.

Unlimited power would mean that you'd have superior resources on you at ALL times, which would prove little challenge. Unless, said opponent have the same resources that you do; more, even.

 

[Bloodstain]

Still, I was merely making a recommendation to someone. My question is: Who are you to object to that? I still can't see any reason why you would interfere and say something along the lines of "You probably won't like it".

I'm not objecting to it. I provided a *different* recommendation. I provide different recommendations all the time when people tell other people that thus-and-so is really awesome while providing no context, because I hate to see people waste their money and time on things that they're totally not interested in. When I get gushy over things that I like, I'm usually pretty happy when people come around and mention, oh, it's full of bugs or too long or if you prefer "realism" you're going to find it bombastic.

Honestly, what a hypocrite you are that you think *your* recommendation should go *absolutely unchallenged* but anyone else with a different opinion offering a different point of view is somehow an interfering twit. Like anyone gives a flying fuck what I think about the Silmarillion. Why are *you* pitching a fit over it? Are you afraid that your beloved textbook of irrelevant fantasy drivel won't get the "exposure" it "deserves" if anyone actually comes out and says "hey, it's a textbook of irrelevant fantasy drivel. You probably won't like it unless you're the kind of person who enjoys wallowing in that sort of thing."

Your persecution paranoia is really starting to annoy me here, so here is the straight word: Nobody cares what you think. Nobody cares what I think. So get over it already.

So now you resort to verbally attacking me. Consider yourself reported.

I didn't provide context? There was a whole paragraph of mine describing Gandalf's role in the Silmarillion, followed by a recommendation. In other words, it said: "Gandalf's role is as I described, and in case you are interested in that and other characters' background information, I highly recommend reading the Silmarillion, because it is all in there." More than enough context.
I think none of The Escapist's users is stupid enough to swiftly "waste money" after someone recommended something. Before buying something, it's common sense to read a short description of the item and then maybe contemplate buying it.

So because I recommended it, it is my "beloved textbook"? You describe me as a clingy fanboy who can't bear someone disagreeing with him. Stop putting words and opinions in my mouth immediately. (for the record: It is neither my favourite book, nor my favourite genre)

"hey, it's a textbook of irrelevant fantasy drivel. You probably won't like it unless you're the kind of person who enjoys wallowing in that sort of thing." In other words: "You probably won't enjoy it unless you enjoy it." Splendid advice, really. Thank God you are here to help us all. Clearly a display of a thoroughly formed opinion.

Well, seeing as you quoted me, disagreed and then kept on discussing the matter, you care at least a bit, otherwise you would have stopped replying after me saying "Good day". That being said: Good day. I will not reply to you anymore, I prefer spending my time with people I enjoy being with.

 

[Hamster at Dawn]

I think maybe you should have a small reserve of magic so that, rather than be helpless when you use up all your mana, you can always cast low-level spells as much as you want. That's what you want really, the ability to cast lots of basic spells but only one or two massive spells in times of great need. It's just difficult to implement that into a game.

 

[JMeganSnow]

I think maybe you should have a small reserve of magic so that, rather than be helpless when you use up all your mana, you can always cast low-level spells as much as you want. That's what you want really, the ability to cast lots of basic spells but only one or two massive spells in times of great need. It's just difficult to implement that into a game.

Nah, it's not difficult--they implemented this in DDO. The various caster prestige paths can all get spell-like abilities that they can use for either miniscule amounts of mana or even when they're out of mana. (They also made it so that if you go below 10 mana, you regenerate mana until you're back up to 10, so you can always use your very cheapest spells even if you're technically "out".) Or you just make the basic spell free.

Sometimes I wonder if some games just make it so that you eventually completely run out of the ability to use specials so that you HAVE to use the auto-attack at some point.

 

[JMeganSnow]

Double post, sorry.

 

[KafkaOffTheBeach]

Death to the mana bar! Death to the demoness, Allegra Geller!

 

[d4rkxy13x]

Ooh, I have a good idea to solve the mana bar problem : instead of rinnung out, your character becomes tired ; your spells cast more slowly and deal less damage. I think it could work.

 

[sean360h]

I thought this was going to be about Yahtzees bar in Australia, I am actually kind of disappointed as it would have made an interesting topic.

I thought that to

 

[rokkolpo]

People that conjure fire out of nowhere need something to stop them from doing it to the entire planet.

That little blue bar was the solution.

I think of it like this: You need to regain focus to conjure up more shit, as you get better your mana bar will increase in size and thus making you a better wizard capable of using more mana.

Seems about right to me.

 

[Gunjester]

I think one of the biggest problems with magic vs. non-magic in fantasy games is that they have opposing arcs. Mages are fun as heck to play at high levels when you can simply wave your hand and make enemies vanish, and you have all kinds of cool spell effects to throw around essentially at will. GETTING to those high levels from the initial "I have a magic missile. Pew. And I'm spent." stage is a horrific grind.

Touche, seriously you've pointed out something I knew but forgot about, and thats all true, I guess I'm just not obsessive enough about a single RPG, or at least MMORPG, to care enough to shoot for ultra-high levels. Unfortunately I've noticed this trend being broken by developers, even with low mana a lot of games hand out Potions like they're lemonade, hell a lot of the MMOs give you up to like, 100 by the time you finish the intro quests, i.e. Maplestory. So as much as I agree thats the way it SHOULD be, seems the game designers are changing it to make mages more accessible to new player and in turn, more annoying for others.
KSers should be banned by the way ^^.

 

[GaryH]

I always prefer systems where magic is absurdly powerful but takes it's toll on the user by making them insane, slowly killing them or both.

You want massive, unstoppable powers? You got 'em, but you're still only human and something has got to give.

This is cool but how would you implement it into a game (assuming we mean computer game not tabletop d & d type thing.) In single player, could be fun if it was built into the story. Cant see it workin in multiplayer.

Easily, there are two ways I see it working. You could just work in tangible drawbacks to all the spells. Damaging spells that hurt you, buffing spells that weaken you in other areas, etc. etc.

That's a fairly tame example though. The other way to do it is to add a risk of some kind of drawback (ranging from a simple debuff, to accidentally helping the enemy you're trying to kill, to sudden, unpleasant death) to every spell and allow each spell to be charged up or to build up some sort of "pressure" when used often. The more spells you use or combine, or the longer you charge up a spell, the greater the risk of it back firing with unpleasant/deadly/unfortunate results. Better spell casters wouldn't just get higher damage numbers, they'd be able to handle more powerful spells with less risk and the extra damage would come as a by product of this.

Bonus points if multiple spell casters can combine their powers to amplify this effect, for better or worse.

There's no need for a mana bar either, your spells are limited by your own sense of self preservation and/or how lucky you feel.