Democrat, Republican, or Sanity

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shadow skill

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I'm voting for Obama based on his stances on government openness, and his plan to provide monetary benefits to people who want to go to college. I recently finished my BA and I am in debt already, so I am hoping that Obama really does push for more aid to students. I also like his plans for using the internet and modernizing government technology ifrastructure.

My personal interest is to see how they solve the job market in making sure that America starts producing instead of consuming, this is related to our economy where people are digging themselves in debt so far no one is able to get a loan to start a business. Also jobs have been much harder to get due to the late baby boomers are back in the work force and companies are no longer willing to take risks in hiring and educating employees to perform their work. That is the number one piece of feedback given to me by companies is that I lack "experience" in the tasks they want me to do despite having a B.A.
I am getting the same deal with the experience bit. I'm trying to hold out until after the election to go back to school if only to keep my student loans at bay for a while longer.

Let me address this whole operating from a position of strength versus weakness mythology as it applies to Iraq. We already our and look weak just by being in Iraq! Why do you think Russia felt that they could roll over Georgia like they did all while the Georgian president begged America for help? The answer is they knew that America is in no position to marshal forces against them since we can barely pacify a country the size of California! Any smart person could look at our military situation and figure out that no matter how we leave Iraq we will have to be on a rebuilding footing for some time afterwards. In other words we are wide freaking open! The whole world understands this now especially after what Russia did. The only ones who don't get this are Americans, which is sad on every possible level.

What does Mccain do when this whole Georgian thing broke? He goes on the TV and starts talking real tough................In other words like a school yard bully he tried to appear tough; except to people even dimly aware of why Russia felt they could even do this to begin with he just looked like a fool who brought a broken and rusty knife to a gun fight. He's not fooling any world leaders with his talk about Russia. I would hope that the majority of Americans are not fooled by this empty tough talk on his part either. This whole mess also illustrates how much of a blunder the war in Iraq has turned out to be for America. The man who is likely to continue this administration's policies with little to no modification should not be counted on to allow America to conduct any international business from a position of "power" period.

I watch Mccain mock Obama when he suggests that we could save some fuel if we tuned our vehicles properly then marvel as he turns around three days later and say "It's a good idea." are you kidding me? The man took three days to figure out that properly tuned vehicles use less energy?!!

Before this election Mccain said that we needed to roll back the tax cuts, which makes sense since no one to my knowledge has ever cut taxes while at war. Now he says we need to keep them in order to stimulate growth. That just begs the question if the tax cuts have been in effect for about four years why is unemployment up to 6.1%? Why did we lose about 600, 000 jobs in August? How will making the tax cuts permanent stimulate growth if they have not done so in the past four or five years of the current administration?

Mccain keeps talking about his POW experience some forty years ago, basically telling us that he is more gangsta than the other guy. The funny thing is that he voted against the G.I. bill because it was too generous What the hell man. [http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=4652517] He's no better than Bush when it comes to supporting the troops as it were. Bush and his boys go on and on about supporting the troops then go ahead and leave the wounded to lay in their own filth at Walter Reed................Way to support the troops guys.

I have to ask anyone with or who works with children who is going to vote for Mccain how much do you hate your charges?

Let's take a look at the "Drill baby, drill!" mantra. The oil we would get from any drilling will take about ten years to have any effect, and over the long term it won't lower the price of oil; the exact opposite will happen because oil is a finite resource. As the oil itself becomes more scarce there will be a tendency to fight over any territory that posseses affordably extractable oil. In other words it's a recipe for wars that will make Iraq look like a day in the park! Drilling now may lower prices in about a decade by about a dollar or two but by then we will have already gone well on our way to exhausting almost all of the readily extractable oil in the Earth!

You would have to hate your children and grand children to knowingly buy into the kind of thinking that says "drill baby drill." Or maybe you think that technology will fix everything in the future.......Guess what that's what the oil execs said fifty years ago, when they were told that oil was indeed finite and given projections on when it would run out. They figured that it would be another generation's problem. It's not as if there wasn't existing technology for using other types of fuel back then either; when the first diesel engine was demonstrated it ran on penut oil! In fact diesel engines have always been inherently capable of running on biofuels by virtue of their design. But what do you think happened we stuck with oil with no transition plan because it was cheaper at the time to just use oil just as it is cheaper to simply use oil based fuels now rather than invest in the R&D required to make alternatives efficient enough to be put to use given our current setup.

All of a sudden Mccain is pro wind power but according to this [http://www.newsweek.com/id/151492/page/2] newsweek article he hasn't exactly been a proponent of alternative energy tax credits in the past.

All of that is just part of why I am not voting for Mccain. It's also why no one else should vote for Mccain even if they do not want to vote for Obama (He's far from perfect I assure you. His health care plan for example probably isn't the best.) instead.
 

werepossum

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shadow skill post=18.70787.705300 said:
I'm voting for Obama based on his stances on government openness, and his plan to provide monetary benefits to people who want to go to college. I recently finished my BA and I am in debt already, so I am hoping that Obama really does push for more aid to students. I also like his plans for using the internet and modernizing government technology ifrastructure.
SNIP
The Democrat position for the last half-century - vote for us and we will take money from other people and give it to you.

Government - it's not theft if WE do it.
 

nmmoore13

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werepossum post=18.70787.706871 said:
shadow skill post=18.70787.705300 said:
I'm voting for Obama based on his stances on government openness, and his plan to provide monetary benefits to people who want to go to college. I recently finished my BA and I am in debt already, so I am hoping that Obama really does push for more aid to students. I also like his plans for using the internet and modernizing government technology ifrastructure.
SNIP
The Democrat position for the last half-century - vote for us and we will take money from other people and give it to you.

Government - it's not theft if WE do it.
Exactly.
 

shadow skill

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Oct 12, 2007
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werepossum post=18.70787.706871 said:
shadow skill post=18.70787.705300 said:
I'm voting for Obama based on his stances on government openness, and his plan to provide monetary benefits to people who want to go to college. I recently finished my BA and I am in debt already, so I am hoping that Obama really does push for more aid to students. I also like his plans for using the internet and modernizing government technology ifrastructure.
SNIP
The Democrat position for the last half-century - vote for us and we will take money from other people and give it to you.

Government - it's not theft if WE do it.
The government is supposed to be composed of the people so how is it "theft?"
 

LadyZephyr

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Nov 1, 2007
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\p/ Progressives, represent.

No, seriously. Obama's okay, but I want to eventually vote for a Russ Feingold-Jim Webb ticket.

ETA: Also, I'm a believer in big government. Government should be an instrument of good, where everyone comes together and no one is left behind. Unfortunately, I don't think our current society cares enough to want that sort of thing, so.... D:
 

werepossum

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shadow skill post=18.70787.706916 said:
werepossum post=18.70787.706871 said:
shadow skill post=18.70787.705300 said:
I'm voting for Obama based on his stances on government openness, and his plan to provide monetary benefits to people who want to go to college. I recently finished my BA and I am in debt already, so I am hoping that Obama really does push for more aid to students. I also like his plans for using the internet and modernizing government technology ifrastructure.
SNIP
The Democrat position for the last half-century - vote for us and we will take money from other people and give it to you.

Government - it's not theft if WE do it.
The government is supposed to be composed of the people so how is it "theft?"
The government is not "composed of the people", it's merely composed of representatives of the people.
 

werepossum

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Tenmar post=18.70787.707118 said:
werepossum post=18.70787.706871 said:
shadow skill post=18.70787.705300 said:
I'm voting for Obama based on his stances on government openness, and his plan to provide monetary benefits to people who want to go to college. I recently finished my BA and I am in debt already, so I am hoping that Obama really does push for more aid to students. I also like his plans for using the internet and modernizing government technology ifrastructure.
SNIP
The Democrat position for the last half-century - vote for us and we will take money from other people and give it to you.

Government - it's not theft if WE do it.
I never really believed that the democrats should play that angle saying "everyone else will pay money but you". I believe in doing my part in paying taxes and so should everyone else. However, tax laws are really the key that keeps big business their profits and it helps them NOT pay ANY taxes at all. The money they do use to reduce taxes go toward donations to charities and the like. Also there is a status that if you are a partner in a company you as a citizen cannot be taxed.

The problem is that people who are in business that would be taxed millions of dollars by the government actually avoid paying any taxes at all. That is how the middle class end up paying the majority of taxes, the rich used the law(and made laws) to avoid paying taxes. Some of those laws do need to go and some should stay because when a person does take their own money and use it to benefit others a tax break should be given, but there should still be money paid to the government to support our society.

Also certain government projects need to go out the door asap because they are a waste of time and money.
Here's a few links on who pays income taxes and other taxes in the USA.
http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=5746&type=0&sequence=1#table2

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?DocID=660&topic2ID=40&topic3ID=41&DocTypeID=2

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/what_percent_of_taxes_does_the_top.html

http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes

http://taxesandgrowth.ncpa.org/news/do-the-rich-and-businesses-pay-their-fair-share

The Leona Helmsley myth that "only the little people pay taxes" (uttered shortly before she was imprisoned on a tax evasion conviction) used to have some basis of truth up until the Reagan tax cuts. The top marginal rate had reached 91% (meaning that once you reached a certain income level, the government seized 91% of everything beyond that) under Truman; Kennedy cut that to 70% if memory serves. Obviously, there was a lot of reason to find ways to pay less. Reagan's tax cuts cut the top marginal rate to (I think) 40%, but also removed most of the deductions, and the alternative minimum tax insures that anyone making above the trigger amount pays a minimum tax according to the AMT tables. No mortgage deduction, no credit for health care, no credit for your losses in the market, don't care if you started a business and it failed, costing you millions - if you had that much income, this table shows the amount of tax you have to pay.

There are of course ways rich people can get around that. When John Edwards was practicing law, he incorporated himself. When he received a multi-million dollar settlement, that went into the corporation. Since he owns all the stock, he then paid himself the money in dividends, being taxed as capital gains (currently 15% I think) rather than as income (currently 33% I think.) CEOs commonly get huge payoffs this way in the form of stock options. If the CEO of General Electric gets 100 million dollars worth of stock options at $10 below current value, he makes an additional 10 million dollars by exercising those options, with no risk to his own money, AND pays the lower capital gains rates even if the stock values goes down. Originally this was used as an incentive for the CEO to increase stock prices, but now it's often used as a way to increase salary whilst lowering taxes.

A better way to look at taxes is to look at the overall tax burden rather than just income tax, because whilst the income tax is highly progressive, other taxes may not be. Payroll taxes (Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid) are actually regressive, with lower wage earners paying a higher percentage of income than higher wage earners, because of the wage cut-off for Social Security. (This is because Social Security is in theory a retirement savings program, not a regular tax.) Under this method, the lowest of society pays around -10% (meaning they are actually given more than they spend) and the highest wage earner pays maybe 40%. But a very rich person could in theory avoid almost all taxes by investing his money in tax-free municipal bonds and living in rented property, thus paying only sales tax.

I'm too lazy to look up corporate taxes, but I think you'll find the USA has some of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. This is because Americans love to sock it to evil corporations, not realizing that corporations don't pay taxes, people do. Higher corporate taxes are just another added cost of doing business, which is passed on to the customer. High corporate tax rates are one big reason companies move to other nations.
 

shadow skill

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werepossum post=18.70787.707560 said:
shadow skill post=18.70787.706916 said:
werepossum post=18.70787.706871 said:
shadow skill post=18.70787.705300 said:
I'm voting for Obama based on his stances on government openness, and his plan to provide monetary benefits to people who want to go to college. I recently finished my BA and I am in debt already, so I am hoping that Obama really does push for more aid to students. I also like his plans for using the internet and modernizing government technology ifrastructure.
SNIP
The Democrat position for the last half-century - vote for us and we will take money from other people and give it to you.

Government - it's not theft if WE do it.
The government is supposed to be composed of the people so how is it "theft?"
The government is not "composed of the people", it's merely composed of representatives of the people.
Use your head, if the government is drawn from the ranks of the people themselves, how then are the representatives that are elected by the people not composed of that population?
 

werepossum

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shadow skill post=18.70787.707684 said:
werepossum post=18.70787.707560 said:
shadow skill post=18.70787.706916 said:
werepossum post=18.70787.706871 said:
shadow skill post=18.70787.705300 said:
I'm voting for Obama based on his stances on government openness, and his plan to provide monetary benefits to people who want to go to college. I recently finished my BA and I am in debt already, so I am hoping that Obama really does push for more aid to students. I also like his plans for using the internet and modernizing government technology ifrastructure.
SNIP
The Democrat position for the last half-century - vote for us and we will take money from other people and give it to you.

Government - it's not theft if WE do it.
The government is supposed to be composed of the people so how is it "theft?"
The government is not "composed of the people", it's merely composed of representatives of the people.
Use your head, if the government is drawn from the ranks of the people themselves, how then are the representatives that are elected by the people not composed of that population?
The representatives are a SUBSET of the people. They are confiscating and re-distributing not only their wealth, but everyone's wealth. By your definition, muggers also have a right to confiscate wealth for redistribution, being a subset of the people.

Fiscal conservatives believe wealth is earned; fiscal liberals believe wealth is distributed. If you assume that all wealth belongs not to the people who earn it, but to the government for equitable re-distribution, then the people are also owned by the government, in the same way that a draft horse is owned by a farmer. The horse may earn wealth with its labor, but that wealth belongs to the farmer because he owns the horse. If the government owns the product of my labor, then it owns me.
 

Vigormortis

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1trakm1nd post=18.70787.702649 said:
Anyone else think that Political elections are becoming more and more like advertisements for products? Last political commercial i saw reminded me of something you might see during the superbowl...
Truth be told, elections have always been, and will probably always be, nothing more than popularity contests. As of late however, they've become more about who the bigger celebrity is. Who appeals more to the illogical and utterly impossible ideals set out by the average, clueless voter (majority of the general populace). It all started out as being a way for people to choose who they thought was best suited to run the country. Now it's about who people think would make a better drinking buddy or who spews forth the most lines of bullshit about the "miracles" they'll perform in office to fix everything. In the end, I find either choice this year depressing. Obama's socialist ideals scare me, McCain seems like a colossal tool and a proud member of the "good 'ole boys" club, Biden seems too persuadable and willing to do what ever someone tells him to do, and Palin, while strong willed and the more human-like of the four, has some rather nutty ideas (creationism in schools? what the hell?). As a registered independent I like to think I can view either side with an objective, unbiased eye. I often find myself liking an ideal or two from both sides but can not fully back either. I always prefer the middle ground, as in the more logical choice. Frankly, I find myself wondering if I even want to vote this year. It seems I'll have to choose between the lesser of two evils. In the end, I think my choice will boil down to who I think is likely to fuck up the least. So, to answer the OP's question, I choose Sanity, but unfortunately, that is not likely to become a choice for a very, very long time.
 

shadow skill

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A tax is not theft you treat the government as a seperate entity from the people that are governed however in America this seperation does not exist. In the end the citizens are the bosses of the representatives tasked with managing the affairs of the country. If the representatives are a subset of the electorate that still means that they are the people. Just like the CEO of a company is no less of an employee than the guy in the mail room. The government wether it be state or local should be permited to collect reasonable taxes for any services that it provides just like any business is able to collect a reasonable fee for any services rendered. If the state is not rendering the service then no tax should be levied on said service.
 

werepossum

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shadow skill post=18.70787.707861 said:
A tax is not theft you treat the government as a seperate entity from the people that are governed however in America this seperation does not exist. In the end the citizens are the bosses of the representatives tasked with managing the affairs of the country. If the representatives are a subset of the electorate that still means that they are the people. Just like the CEO of a company is no less of an employee than the guy in the mail room. The government wether it be state or local should be permited to collect reasonable taxes for any services that it provides just like any business is able to collect a reasonable fee for any services rendered. If the state is not rendering the service then no tax should be levied on said service.
Yes, and if the CEO of your company took part of your paycheck each week and gave it to the janitor you'd be raising hell. I don't object to taxes to support the legitimate functions of government - I object to government taking money from one person and giving it to another person to equalize outcomes.

RAK, government currently pays 45% of the health care tab and 75% of the education tab, including secondary education. Surely that should be enough socialism?

http://www.newsbatch.com/hc-pubpriv.html

http://www.uis.unesco.org/template/pdf/EducGeneral/Factsheet07_No4_EN.pdf

EDIT: Forgot to add, McCain commanded the largest air force squadron - he's definitely learned logistics. Palin has commanded Alaskan National Guard - she may or may not have learned anything useful about logistics. In any case, having the president "help" logistically in Iraq or Afghanistan would be very, very bad - logistics is one of the things the US military does better than anyone and should be left to the full-time specialists.
 

Altorin

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May 16, 2008
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how on earth did the thread derail this far?

The Clonetroopers of Episode 2-3 had relatively short lifespans, and once they were dead, they were unable to be replaced. The clone troopers WERE very effective, until the very end, they didn't have to fight against the protagonists, so they were allowed to be effective fighters by the Laws of Motion Pictures.

By Episode 4, many of the clones had been killed off, or died of old age, as their aging was erratic. If any were still alive, they were probably physically so old that they were unable to serve. So the Stormtroopers were conscripts and volunteers. I'm sure this was a gradual change, but by the time of Episode 4, almost all the Stormtroopers were not clones of Jango Fett.

The reason the stormtroopers suck so bad can be explained that they're undertrained, but in actuality they were effective fighters. They were involved in many successful missions, The only problem was, during the movies they were fighting the protagonists, and I know it's a little bit of meta thinking, but that's the long and short of it.

Once your super effective fighting force is turned against the protagonists in a situation where the story dictates the protagonists are victorious, they become bumbling idiots.
 

shadow skill

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Mccain's command was not combat oriented.

Yes, and if the CEO of your company took part of your paycheck each week and gave it to the janitor you'd be raising hell.
Depends on why he or she gave it to the janitor, if it was to get the janitor through school or help out with medical expenses I wouldn't be bothered by it. Particularly if I could obtain said services should I want or require them. You need to stop using such vaccuous examples. One could argue baed on your own criteria that it is a function of government either state or local to ensure that people are able to go to college regardless of their income level because of the shift towards all manner of skilled labor in our economy.

Do you not realize that secondary education in this country is high school? Where people are getting their ass kicked is in the post compulsory arena at the university level. If you take into account the types of jobs available currently, and the tendency for those with college degrees to be paid more; wouldn't it be prudent to make sure that there are fewer people who cannot go to college due to monetary concerns?

Your link to health care doesn't tell me what kinds of procedures are being covered through public funds, what is typically covered by insurance, or even what the cost of the insurance is to the person insured. In short both of your percentages are empty.

Altorin I think you got the wrong thread.
 

wgreer25

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Jun 9, 2008
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BaronAsh post=18.70787.703111 said:
Trace2010 post=18.70787.702802 said:
I know if you aren't from the United States you probably will hate me for posting this, but the fact that 200,000 Germans ended up attending Obama's "world visits" kinda makes me pause just a little bit.

Nobody would fault me for saying that "Germany has to do right by Germany", or "Great Britain has to do right by Great Britain", so would anybody fault me for saying that any presidential candidate should hold America's best interests FIRST and not the world's????

My sentiments exactly, bravo for your choice of words.(have a cookie)
Agreed. So many people forget that the President is little more than a figure head who's only real power is the power to Veto. That being said, people also forget that when the democrats took control of Congress/Senate in 2006, they did so under the promise of cheap energy. As soon as they take over, the exact opposite happened. They didn't cause the energy/$ crysis, but they didn't do what they promised, when they had the power to actually help.

So, it really doesn't matter who you vote for for pres, but I think that the senate/congress sould go back to the Republicans. As for prez though, I would vote for the one most suited for the job, not the most popular on TV. Pretty obvious who that is.
 

Slycne

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Feb 19, 2006
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Altorin post=18.70787.708873 said:
how on earth did the thread derail this far?

The Clonetroopers of Episode 2-3 had relatively short lifespans, and once they were dead, they were unable to be replaced. The clone troopers WERE very effective, until the very end, they didn't have to fight against the protagonists, so they were allowed to be effective fighters by the Laws of Motion Pictures.

By Episode 4, many of the clones had been killed off, or died of old age, as their aging was erratic. If any were still alive, they were probably physically so old that they were unable to serve. So the Stormtroopers were conscripts and volunteers. I'm sure this was a gradual change, but by the time of Episode 4, almost all the Stormtroopers were not clones of Jango Fett.

The reason the stormtroopers suck so bad can be explained that they're undertrained, but in actuality they were effective fighters. They were involved in many successful missions, The only problem was, during the movies they were fighting the protagonists, and I know it's a little bit of meta thinking, but that's the long and short of it.

Once your super effective fighting force is turned against the protagonists in a situation where the story dictates the protagonists are victorious, they become bumbling idiots.
-> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.70854