Do you believe in ghosts or the paranormal?

[Aqua Trenoble]

Oh, and if your mother is a real psychic, tell her to try Randi's Million Dollar Psychic Challenge. http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

For some reason I don't think she will - funny how real scientific analysis causes all the frauds to crawl back into the wordwork.

I'm not sure I want to tell her about this whole conversation, to be honest. Though I am curious about what the results would be.

I'm not sure that that experiment is a wholly sound idea, though. Any scientist can tell you that preconceptions alter outcomes. If there are any skeptics involved, the challenge may be broken even for legitimate subjects.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest of your comment, as having multiple arguments at the same time is never a good idea and nothing I say to you will make the slightest damn difference.

 

[EvilEggCracker]

Actually, her winning the psychic challenge would speak volumes and I would reconsider my stance.

And the test is usually triple-blinded which means that no preconceptions will alter the experiment results.

 

[JokerCrowe]

Not until I get some actual proof/explanation/I experience it for myself. I believe in science, and its ability to give me answers.

 

[interspark]

Spoiler: snip

sure I believe because
1. There is still many doubts whether souls exist in the science community
2. my cd player would turn on for no reason
3.once I was in the bathroom and as I went to leave the light turned off but the light didn't burnout the switch had actually moved.
4. I've seen weird things before like one time my dad came into the house I said hi he said hey then walked into the kitchen then a second later he walked in the front door again I said hi he said hey and walked towards the kitchen but then I asked him how he got from the kitchen to the front door so fast and he didn't know what I was talking about because he wasn't really there the first time I saw him. Also I saw the house from the nightmare on elm street movies in one of my dreams before I actually watched the movie.

1. not sure what a "soul" has to do with this
2. issue with the wiring, now you would have something if it had no batteries and wasn't plugged in
3. It either wasn't flipped all the way or you hit it on your way out without noticing
4. Deja Vu and the second half is because your mind didn't have a real image for what you dreamed, so once you saw the movie your mind grasped the house from the movie and applied it to what you "remembered" from your dream.

dude, how do you hit a light switch without noticing? and de ja vou doesn't make you hallucinate, open your mind a little

I've already posted this before in the thread, but I believe it's worth posting again just for this post:
The one who's being closed-minded here is Grell Sutcliff. He is automatically attributing all his strange experiences to the supernatural without there being anything pointing towards supernatural occurences being the cause of his experiences, and without considering the score of other explanations that don't clash with our current understanding of the universe.
What artanis is doing is providing him with more alternatives and taking different approaches to the case:
artanis is the one being open-minded here.

yeah, i saw it, it's ridiculous. of course it's close-mindedness to jump to supernaturalness the second anything strange happens but very few people do that! what makes you think Grell Sutcliff didn't thoughroughly investigate his encounters to be sure there was no clear explanation? you're close-minded for assuming this because you're adamant that the paranormal doesn't exist. take my "encounter" for example, i've seen a shadow of a tree that isn't there on my window sill, i thouroughly tested to postion of my own shadow to see where the light and thus, the shadow were coming from and the space was completely empty of trees, are you going to be close-minded by saying, because the paranormal doesn't exist i must have been dreaming or hallucinating, or will you open you mind the tiiiniest of bits and consider that perhaps the shadow really wasn't being cast by anything?

 

[Mad1Cow]

I'm superstitious when it comes to bad luck and good luck (just because it always bites me in the ass) but my main belief on how the world works is that for every good thing, there's a bad thing and that the world is in some sort of balance...then again, I think everything's affected by a balance, water's a fun one. Too much, you drown, too little you dehydrate, stuff like that really.

In terms of ghosts I have the whole, well, if there were meant to be human ghosts, why aren't there cow ghosts or sheep ghosts or t-rex ghosts...it just doesn't add up really...

 

[Kayla Herrera]

Last night, Iw ent into an old hospital, still very structurally sound, and a door unlatched itself and swung open, then a few minutes later slammed shut.

This is what I like to call "the wind".

You try NOT believing in that sort of thing when your mother is a honest-to-god psychic witch (sorry, MEDICAL INTUITIVE) and has been making decent money on repeat clients for 20 years. I'm not even kidding, if there's good, reliable money in telehealing then there must be something to it.

Care to share what your experiences were?

This what I like to call "the fraud".

it was not the wind, look I'm not stupid. We tried to debunk the occurrence, and I am very aware of everything it could have been and we tested it all! I know what I saw and what happened. What the hell can turn a door handle?


no not the wind. THere was no wind that night, very obviously. I'm not stupid, I know what things to check for, the obvious "natural" occurences, but I'm telling you, we could not find an explanation. Tried to debunk it.
As much as I would like to, there is no scientific evidence. Really, that's why we're even having this discussion about whether it's real or not. If you want, you can talk to my mom. Her website is at spiritualmedicine.com. She may be able to prove to you that what she does isn't fake. Obviously there's nothing I can do to change your opinion.

I think that part of the problem is that if someone doesn't believe in something then it doesn't exist for them. Thus it is impossible to prove anything to skeptics because they will always come up for another more reasonable explanation.

If you choose not to have an open mind, that's your business.

This is what I like to call "the sucker".


Ghosts don't exist. There is no evidence for it. Your little anecdotal stories mean squat. Why? Because human perceptions are very very easily fooled. The day I see evidence for the paranormal is the day I give it some credit. To date there is none - and likely never will be any.

Oh, and if your mother is a real psychic, tell her to try Randi's Million Dollar Psychic Challenge. http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

For some reason I don't think she will - funny how real scientific analysis causes all the frauds to crawl back into the wordwork.

Haters gunna hate

 

[EvilEggCracker]

or will you open you mind the tiiiniest of bits and consider that perhaps the shadow really wasn't being cast by anything?

But it is so much more likely that your mind was playing tricks on you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There probably aren't ghost trees.

 

[Aqua Trenoble]

What people are saying is: Look at that thing that happened! You can't explain how that happened! That must mean a ghost/paranormal phenomenon did it!

This is stupid. What they're saying is "That can't be explained, therefore I can explain it."

Eh, I don't think that that translation is necessarily accurate. All that they're saying is that the explanation doesn't lie within what is accepted as normal. This could mean that the phenomenon requires more scientific analysis or it could mean that space-rays from the planet Xenon are fucking with us.

I hope that the video wasn't a response to me. I have a good grasp of the definition of open-mindedness, and I think that insulting others to create explanations that match your opinions does not qualify.

 

[Jodah]

I believe there are things the mind does that cannot be fully explained right now. For example, I believe some people do have a sixth sense but in effect it is merely gathering information that one does not consciously recognize and piecing it together.

I do not believe in psychic readings, healing, fate, ghosts, demons, or possessions though. Those are excuses and false hopes for ignorant people.

 

[Vigormortis]

Why the hell would I?
I've never had an experience that can be attributed to a paranormal being, nor have I ever seen any evidence of anything of such a phenomenon existing.
Nor has anyone else for that matter.

What people are saying is: Look at that thing that happened! You can't explain how that happened! That must mean a ghost/paranormal phenomenon did it!

This is stupid. What they're saying is "That can't be explained, therefore I can explain it."

I don't like to sound like a dick; but sometimes...

Seeing a phenomena that you can't explain is not ground enough to believe in something that goes against our current understanding of the world. If you can't explain the phenomena you experienced, you must accept that there is a number of physically viable explanations for why this thing is happening.
If you can't explain it and there is evidence to suggest that the phenomena is caused by a supernatural being (such as ectoplasm suddenly covering everything), then that's grounds for looking further into it. It is not, however, proof for the existence of such supernatural beings.

You, good sir, deserve this:

Spoiler

I can't tell you how many times I've had to say the very same thing to people who have accused me of being "stupid, arrogant, and close-minded" because I didn't unconditionally accept their claims of ghostly encounters, alien visitations, or other such para-normal claims. Amazingly, the few among these people that I managed to convince to reexamine their own claims with a more open-minded, analytical, and logical point view ended up admitting to "jumping to conclusions" and often came to a sudden realization they had missed a bit of evidence before that helped to create a more reasonable explanation.

I am a firm advocate of the sciences. As such, I am also one of the first people to say that there is a vast amount of things, events, and phenomena in the universe we don't understand. Yet. However, anthropomorphizing them with such off-hand, inexplicable human ideas as "ghosts" and "big foot" without looking for evidence or even being open to the possibility of other explanations is just down-right ignorant.

dude, how do you hit a light switch without noticing? and de ja vou doesn't make you hallucinate, open your mind a little

I believe you need to watch the above video. It may offend you, but I think you could seriously benefit from it's message.

 

[MegaManOfNumbers]

Well, there's gotta be a reason my pants lit on fire yesterday.

 

[Jonluw]

Spoiler: snip

sure I believe because
1. There is still many doubts whether souls exist in the science community
2. my cd player would turn on for no reason
3.once I was in the bathroom and as I went to leave the light turned off but the light didn't burnout the switch had actually moved.
4. I've seen weird things before like one time my dad came into the house I said hi he said hey then walked into the kitchen then a second later he walked in the front door again I said hi he said hey and walked towards the kitchen but then I asked him how he got from the kitchen to the front door so fast and he didn't know what I was talking about because he wasn't really there the first time I saw him. Also I saw the house from the nightmare on elm street movies in one of my dreams before I actually watched the movie.

1. not sure what a "soul" has to do with this
2. issue with the wiring, now you would have something if it had no batteries and wasn't plugged in
3. It either wasn't flipped all the way or you hit it on your way out without noticing
4. Deja Vu and the second half is because your mind didn't have a real image for what you dreamed, so once you saw the movie your mind grasped the house from the movie and applied it to what you "remembered" from your dream.

dude, how do you hit a light switch without noticing? and de ja vou doesn't make you hallucinate, open your mind a little

I've already posted this before in the thread, but I believe it's worth posting again just for this post:
The one who's being closed-minded here is Grell Sutcliff. He is automatically attributing all his strange experiences to the supernatural without there being anything pointing towards supernatural occurences being the cause of his experiences, and without considering the score of other explanations that don't clash with our current understanding of the universe.
What artanis is doing is providing him with more alternatives and taking different approaches to the case:
artanis is the one being open-minded here.

yeah, i saw it, it's ridiculous. of course it's close-mindedness to jump to supernaturalness the second anything strange happens but very few people do that! what makes you think Grell Sutcliff didn't thoughroughly investigate his encounters to be sure there was no clear explanation?

It appeared that he had not even considered the idea of faulty wiring in his cd-player, and him being surprised that a light switch had moved without him noticing. (Hell, every time I go to take a piss, I have to look over my shoulder to see if I locked the door, since I am so accustomed to closing and locking the door in one automatic motion.)

you're close-minded for assuming this because you're adamant that the paranormal doesn't exist. take my "encounter" for example, i've seen a shadow of a tree that isn't there on my window sill, i thouroughly tested to postion of my own shadow to see where the light and thus, the shadow were coming from and the space was completely empty of trees, are you going to be close-minded by saying, because the paranormal doesn't exist i must have been dreaming or hallucinating, or will you open you mind the tiiinies of bits and consider that perhaps the shadow really wasn't being cast by anything?

I do consider the possibility. However, among the possible explanations for what you are describing, the idea that there was an invisible tree or a ghost casting the shade are among the least likely ones.
However, you have no proof of it, and I don't have enough facts to evaluate your claims. (Anecdotal evidence isn't the best kind. 2:20 in the video)

Personally, I'd say it's more likely that you misinterpreted your situation or that your eyes were playing you a trick than it is that you experienced something that goes against a very basic understanding of physics.

From what you describe, I can't say anything conclusively. And I certainly can't conclude that something supernatural was the cause of it.
I can however try to evaluate the likeliness of the different possible causes. And in this case, the one going against physics needs a lot more evidence to back it up.

 

[Kayla Herrera]

Last night, Iw ent into an old hospital, still very structurally sound, and a door unlatched itself and swung open, then a few minutes later slammed shut.

This is what I like to call "the wind".

You try NOT believing in that sort of thing when your mother is a honest-to-god psychic witch (sorry, MEDICAL INTUITIVE) and has been making decent money on repeat clients for 20 years. I'm not even kidding, if there's good, reliable money in telehealing then there must be something to it.

Care to share what your experiences were?

This what I like to call "the fraud".

As much as I would like to, there is no scientific evidence. Really, that's why we're even having this discussion about whether it's real or not. If you want, you can talk to my mom. Her website is at spiritualmedicine.com. She may be able to prove to you that what she does isn't fake. Obviously there's nothing I can do to change your opinion.

I think that part of the problem is that if someone doesn't believe in something then it doesn't exist for them. Thus it is impossible to prove anything to skeptics because they will always come up for another more reasonable explanation.

If you choose not to have an open mind, that's your business.

This is what I like to call "the sucker".


Ghosts don't exist. There is no evidence for it. Your little anecdotal stories mean squat. Why? Because human perceptions are very very easily fooled. The day I see evidence for the paranormal is the day I give it some credit. To date there is none - and likely never will be any.

Oh, and if your mother is a real psychic, tell her to try Randi's Million Dollar Psychic Challenge. http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

For some reason I don't think she will - funny how real scientific analysis causes all the frauds to crawl back into the wordwork.

no not the wind. THere was no wind that night, very obviously. I'm not stupid, I know what things to check for, the obvious "natural" occurences, but I'm telling you, we could not find an explanation. Tried to debunk it. What the hell can turn a doorknob??

 

[WolfThomas]

Nope, still doesn't stop me from being freaked out when I'm home alone ocaisonally.

 

[interspark]

I do consider the possibility. However, among the possible explanations for what you are describing, the idea that there was an invisible tree or a ghost casting the shade are among the least likely ones.


Personally, I'd say it's more likely that you misinterpreted your situation or that your eyes were playing you a trick than it is that you experienced something that goes against a very basic understanding of physics.

not wanting to sound abnoxious but i'm afraid it's the only explanation! the logic works as follows, there is a shadow on my window sill, it's shaped like a tree so the thing casting it must be a tree, judging by the defined shape of the shadow the thing must be close, as there are no close trees visible it stands to reasson that the thing casting the shadow is invisible, in contrary to what we understand from science. as for the second statement, i really dislike it when people claim to pass off "your eyes were playing tricks on you" as an explanation, this may be the case for glimmers in the corners of one's eyes or for the emotionally strained or insane, but neither of those apply to me, i saw this shadow plain as day, on several occasions! and i am certainly not insane!

 

[zehydra]

I don't "believe" one way or the other. Sure it's possible that they exist, but they'd be the natural part of something. If they exist, then basically there's something wrong with the standard definition of "natural", or there is something wrong with our definition of "Ghosts"

 

[mandaforever]

I find it interesting that people can just straight up write this off, thinking they know everything.

I do not personally believe in ghosts, but I do believe there are things going on we are not aware of as human beings. I've had at least 5 horror movie status paranormal experiences happen to me in my own house. I felt someone lying on top of me in my bed every night for 3 months, and it tapped on my foot a few times. I saw a flash of light and heard a scream (not an ordinary scream). Music has played out of my computer speakers when no music station was on and the volume was tuned all the way down (I wouldn't call it music though...)

ya. I can't just write those experiences off, but I wish they had never happened. No theyre not all in my head, because I was wide awake every time these things happened. No I am not mentally unstable. It just happened.

 

[artanis_neravar]

Well, there's gotta be a reason my pants lit on fire yesterday.

Maybe you should stop telling lies

 

[blindthrall]

I'm not asking people to personally experience anything, I'm just saying that they blatantly disregard or even attempt to disprove other people's personal experiences. That is the mark of a complete douche. I'm providing potential evidence, you are just ignoring it in favor of an explanation that is more comfortable to you.

Really, I'm insulting people because they deserve to be insulted and because it makes me feels better about this whole inane conversation. If you don't understand either of those reasons then you really should go elsewhere.

"Potential evidence." Even you couldn't call it evidence without that wiggle word in there. Also, you're insulting people because it's you're only argument. Your mother preys on people afraid of their own mortality, simple as that. How about instead of insulting me, tell your mom to lay a curse on me.

 

[interspark]

or will you open you mind the tiiiniest of bits and consider that perhaps the shadow really wasn't being cast by anything?

But it is so much more likely that your mind was playing tricks on you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There probably aren't ghost trees.

i essentially said the same thing to someone else just now, but i'll repeat it for your sake, i dislike it when people say "you're mind was playing tricks on you" and try to pass it off as an explanation, on a normal night, under normal circumstances, our minds don't just randomley show us things that aren't there! maybe glimmers in the corners of our eyes, but not plain as day shadows! as for the evidence, the shadow is being cast, therefore something must be casting it, by the definition of the shadow we can guess how far away the thing is and by comparing say, our hands to their shadows we can see what direction the shadow is coming from, through this we can estimate approximately from where the tree shadow is being cast, and yet in said location there is no tree