Do you think Bayonetta is a positive example of a female protagonist?

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Hi. I'm Psyche. How are you all doing? Me? Oh, i'm fine. I just had an interesting Discussion over in the Off Topic section but i thought it would be more appropriate to continue it here. So, anyways, in this Thread

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.839499-Who-is-Your-Waifu?page=3

I expressed my fondness for Bayonetta from the game of the same name. I argued that while she is sexualised to a degree that it's an integral part of her character and obviously designed to appeal to male gamers she manages to avoid the dreaded problem of objectification because her sexualised looks and demeanor are treated as a form of empowerment and she is generally shown to be incredibly capable and confident. However, Zira argued that the fact that she is inherently designed to be appealing to male gamers is a form of objectification in and on itself which is a prefectly valid point. So... who's side are you taking? Is Bayonetta a good female protagonist, able to stand on her own as a character or just a shallow way to pander to male gamers?

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Is Bayonetta a good female protagonist, able to stand on her own as a character or just a shallow way to pander to male gamers?

Mind you, I don't think she's one thing or the other. I think she's both.


However, here's an idea: would Bayonetta still work as a character WITHOUT all the pandering?

I think she would essentially still work in that what would be left would be a pretty generic example of the badass action girl with only a rather endearing love for cheesy one liners to set her apart. But that would make her a lot less entertaining.

 

[Weaver]

I don't actually think she's really objectified, personally.

I simply feel everything is just so over the top that I didn't, at any point, actually find her attractive and that any "objectification" would be thrust into the realm of ridiculous parody. It would be like calling the Adam West Batman "violent" when it's just camp.

Sex, I postulate, is Bayonetta's theme. As in, Aquaman is thematically based off oceanic life and characteristics, Bayonetta is based on bondage and sex and it's portrayed in an incredibly campy way.

Further, I see her as sexually intimidating. And I feel it's good to have a strong female character who isn't ashamed of her sexuality. Most female characters in games are either ice queens (they simply aren't interested in sex) or they act very "innocent/meek" so to speak. Bayonetta is neither. Does she like sex? Obviously. Does she need attention from any of the male characters to make her feel good about herself, how she looks, who she is? Fuck no, she doesn't need you at all.

Every situation she's in, she is more or less in complete control of and she knows it.
I think she's a great character.

She was also designed by Mari Shimazaki who, is a woman:
http://www.destructoid.com/platinum-only-a-woman-could-design-bayonetta-148258.phtml

Further, the dynamic between her and Luka (if anyone besides me bothered to play the game) is a complete gender role reversal. She frequently orders Luka to retreat to safety while she fights the huge monsters (because, need I remind you, she is in charge).

 

[MSfire012]

I always viewed Bayonetta as a big satire of sexualized videogame characters. I mean, the whole game is humorous in tone, and even when it is serious, it is always played in such an exaggerated way that you can't take it completely straight. All the characters are big, loud and over the top in some way.
Bayonetta herself is an exaggeration of badass action/adventure game characters like Kratos and Dante, the game is packed with references to other video games...And as far as Bayonetta's sexualization itself...Well, firtly her body is weird, with the extremely long legs, slim waist and large chest, while keeping a very realistic head all things considered. Her own powers involve becoming at least partially nude, other sexualized character fight while wearing small, sexy clothing, Bayonetta's fighting style IS her sexuality, and most of all she knows of her hyper sexuality and uses it to her benefits, instead of the usual "Sexy" characters who act unaware of their looks and clothings, acting as if going to say an epic fantasy quest in miniskirts is completely normal. The lollipops she uses are incredibly small, something anyone could finish in a bite, which is the contrary of the usual "Girls with lollipops" fetish which generally involve big suckers one would take hours to finish.
There's plenty of other's stuff to her too, and I still can't decide if that was the intent, cause it wasn't made clear enough, at least for me. But I do think she was designed as a subtle satire, or at least to be sexually intimidating.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I don't know, because I never played it and probably never will. I think the character is hideous, though. I remember that style of horrible librarian glasses being all the rage in 2001. Call the fashion police.

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

 

[Diablo1099_v1legacy]

Well, one of the big things IMO that Platinum Games does is make the player feel powerful so I'm leaning towards yes.
The whole fact that her outfit is her hair though coulda been dropped though...

 

[Weaver]

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

I have to agree with this.

I'm quite the rampant feminist, yet Bayonetta doesn't bother me much. And that's because everything about her says "I'm a sexist character and I'm very well aware of it!". And when the character gleefully admits to being sexist, what's the reason to get angry?

I agree with the points brought: she's a confident character, she's in control, she isn't afraid of her sexuality, she's strong, she doesn't need male leads... all extremely good qualities.
But all this in bathed in a strong sexism coat. Because if she REALLY was completely in control and strong and etc. etc. she might as well scare off some players.
"I'm a strong character, I beat up everyone, I don't need no man for my confidence..... but here's some sexy poses for you, player".

Of the two females I know who played the game to completion, they both loved the character.
Take that small anecdotal evidence for what you will.

I just didn't personally see the "sexy poses" to be anything more than for the player to laugh at, or possibly laugh with. It's steeped in it's own ludicrous and it fully understands how humorous it is.

Will some people find it sexy? Of course, there are people who masturbate to My Little Pony. Finding something that isn't fetishized is more difficult than finding something that is. That said, I'd be curious for people to chime in if they found the character actually sexy and attractive or not.

 

[Casual Shinji]

She's supposed to be a joke right?

To me she's just a goofy character not to be taken serious. Atleast, no more than Kratos or any other power fantasy.

But it's like female game characters now have to either be shallow fanservice or stand for something deeply profound, or apparently both in this case. Wouldn't it be nice to have female protagonists that aren't this loaded with either positive or negative stereotypes?

 

[Weaver]

She's supposed to be a joke right?

To me she's just a goofy character not to be taken serious. Atleast, no more than Kratos or any other power fantasy.

But it's like female game characters now have to either be shallow fanservice or stand for something deeply profound, or apparently both in this case. Wouldn't it be nice to have female protagonists that aren't this loaded with either positive or negative stereotypes?

Arguably, it would be nice to have video game protagonists in general that aren't just stereotypes.
I think we're slowly getting there.

 

[omega 616]

I think she is bad 'cos I don't see how it empowers her. She might be capable but why do her special attacks mean she has to be naked? Why does she have to have a Miranda (from ME) physique (big boobs, perfect ass, long legs etc)?

It's "I am dressing provocatively in an ironic way" that might be so but you're still dressed provocatively! Although I suspect it's the opposite, they wanted to dress her provocatively and then the "it's empowering squad" showed up and just claimed it to be empowering.

I saw somebody ask "However, here's an idea: would Bayonetta still work as a character WITHOUT all the pandering?" what about "Would Bayonetta still work as an unattractive character?". Not to be offensive but we have all seen the ugly generalization, big glasses, braces, unkempt hair, spots, goofy demeanor etc. would the game be as big if Bayonetta looked like ...

Spoiler: This

 

[Casual Shinji]

Arguably, it would be nice to have video game protagonists in general that aren't just stereotypes.
I think we're slowly getting there.

Well, you're always going to have stereotypes in games, because a lot of them are power fantasies and cartoony. And that's fine. But it's like female characters are stuck being either extremely negative or trying to be extremely positive. In the current climate it's nearly impossible to create a female character that's just... a character.

 

[TrevHead]

dp

 

[TrevHead]

While she might be a bit of a joke character or even offensive to some when taken out of context, she is a fantastic character for a spectacle character action game that's full of cheesy one liners.

Is she a pro female character? About as much as the sexy Dante from DMC 3 / DMC is pro male.

 

[Evonisia]

As far as I can tell she's designed to be a satire of oversexualised female characters in games like Bayonetta. As a character I do find her appealing, she's confident but flawed, though about 50% of everything she says is some kind of cheesy one liner. Her friendship with Jeane is an example of two female characters being friends without being directly tied to a male character or stereotypical female video game traits like fashion and being overly emotional. I think she's a positive example of a female protagonist, but take her with a heap of salt because she's intended to parody 'bad' female characters and her existence is based off of that.

 

[Erttheking]

I have to say, it's odd. Bayonetta checks off just about every last thing on the sexy check list, but I find her about as arousing as a plank of wood. I think in the end it's because she's too much. Tall women are sexy, but as Yahtzee pointed out, she looks less like a tall woman and more a giraffe that's taken poll dancing lessons, less like a woman who happens to be tall and more an abomination of nature. Or maybe I just have trouble finding a woman sexy whenever she gets naked is closely followed by a giant angel that looks more like a demon getting eaten alive by her hair sexy. Seriously, in those moments she gives fucking Alucard from Hellsing a run for his money. And she's constantly in control and her sex IS a part of her character, so I'd give her a very hesitant and shaking thumbs up.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I think she's about as good example to women as Kratos might be to men (i.e. not). I don't know how self-aware is the over-sexualization though. Japanese media generally does the same thing for every woman. So Bayonetta's particularly over-sexualized. But I dunno.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

However, Zira argued that the fact that she is inherently designed to be appealing to male gamers is a form of objectification in and on itself which is a prefectly valid point. So... who's side are you taking? Is Bayonetta a good female protagonist, able to stand on her own as a character or just a shallow way to pander to male gamers?

Isn't any attractive female character (regardless of medium) made to appeal to males on the physical level in some form? So, then can only ugly and purposefully unattractive women be good female protagonists? And, that line of logic is beyond flawed because then an any real women that are attractive are themselves "bad" real female protagonists (and attractiveness is subjective as well).

I think Bayonetta is an awesome female protagonist, I love everything about her. She's just damn entertaining, and I just LOVE "good" cheesy humor and she's overflowing with it.

I really love MovieBob's analysis of Bayonetta as well:

Spoiler

---

I think she's about as good example to women as Kratos might be to men (i.e. not). I don't know how self-aware is the over-sexualization though. Japanese media generally does the same thing for every woman. So Bayonetta's particularly over-sexualized. But I dunno.

Oh, come on. Kratos is just anger and nothing else. Kratos only kinda worked as a character in the 1st GoW. Bayonetta is better than that no matter how bad you think her character is.

 

[Zhukov]

Not sure.

I can't really dislike her design. It's so over the top and blatant about it. I definitely prefer that approach to, "Looook, she's a totally awesome and legit female character... and if you looooook really carefully you can see her labia, teeheehee!"

However I don't personally find her attractive, so I may be the wrong person to ask.

Also...

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

This is definitely true.