Do you think Bayonetta is a positive example of a female protagonist?

[NihilSinLulz]

I think Bayonetta represents the rarest of all feminists: the almost mythical pro-sex feminist

I love the character. She's confident, sexy, not helpless, has actual ambitions and goals. Yes she's sexualized, but it always feels like its for her. I think she's a positive role model.

 

[Therumancer]

Hi. I'm Psyche. How are you all doing? Me? Oh, i'm fine. I just had an interesting Discussion over in the Off Topic section but i thought it would be more appropriate to continue it here. So, anyways, in this Thread

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.839499-Who-is-Your-Waifu?page=3

I expressed my fondness for Bayonetta from the game of the same name. I argued that while she is sexualised to a degree that it's an integral part of her character and obviously designed to appeal to male gamers she manages to avoid the dreaded problem of objectification because her sexualised looks and demeanor are treated as a form of empowerment and she is generally shown to be incredibly capable and confident. However, Zira argued that the fact that she is inherently designed to be appealing to male gamers is a form of objectification in and on itself which is a prefectly valid point. So... who's side are you taking? Is Bayonetta a good female protagonist, able to stand on her own as a character or just a shallow way to pander to male gamers?

The way I see it is that Bayonetta gets way too much attention. I think the "problem" with Bayonetta started with the way she was promoted before the game even came out. Things like posters for her on Japanese subway walls, covered with "post it notes" encouraging passers by to take them and undress her as they went by and things like that. I think this might have also been the game they advertised by making a commercial (Japanese) where they allegedly put a pair of foam breasts on an alley wall and captured what passers by did with a "hidden camera" (and no, I don't believe it wasn't staged).

At the end of the day, she's pretty much part for the course, your typical fantasy heroine, who like all most heroes in fantasy tends to represent some sort of physical ideal, whether it's male or female. There are exceptions to that of course, but it is the general rule. She is no worse than hundreds of sexy witches created in fantasy over the years, many of them by female creators, largely for a female audience.

If you want to get technical, it seems to me that what Bayonetta did was pretty much put a gender change on Dante. Dante being your basic "so handsome it's painful" swashbuckling rogue who goes running around doing all of these crazy, hyper-kinetic fight scenes. Bayonetta is pretty much his female counterpart, with her own game (as opposed to one of the ladies in Dante's supporting cast). It seems to me that people have spent so much time argueing this from the perspective of gender politics that they tend to overlook the obvious comparison. Basically if you were to say Bayonetta is in some way offensive to her gender, you'd have to say Dante is offensive to his. On a lot of levels I've always suspected the game developers have been laughing themselves silly over this in particular.... but as I said, the initial promotional stunts for Bayonetta that I heard about, before the game was ever released, probably ensured this was going to happen, a sort of western backlash to a Japanese advertising campaign, even if a lot of people don't quite realize how it started.

 

[Yopaz]

I wouldn't say she's a positive example of a female protagonist. Checking off every stereotype and making her over the top with the purpose of making fun of how the industry portrays female characters doesn't make her a good protagonist. It makes for a good comment on how female characters are portrayed by making fun of it, but it doesn't make her a better character.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Asking if Bayonetta is a good representation of female game characters is sort of like asking if Duke Nukem is a good depiction of male action heroes: both are so over the top and created with the idea of poking fun at their respective archetypes that you really can't take them seriously at all.

Everything about Bayonetta is so hilariously over the top sexualized that it just turns into a parody of itself after a while. She's built like some sort of weird Barbie doll (with insanely long legs, a miniscule waist, and enormous chest), she wears 'sexy librarian' glasses, sucks on a lollipop, wears black leather, walks with a ridiculous hip sway walk, has tons of bondage themed attacks, and her ultra attacks literally involve her clothes flying off. Just take her for what she is: an over the top parody of over-sexualized game characters.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

Asking if Bayonetta is a good representation of female game characters is sort of like asking if Duke Nukem is a good depiction of male action heroes: both are so over the top and created with the idea of poking fun at their respective archetypes that you really can't take them seriously at all.

Everything about Bayonetta is so hilariously over the top sexualized that it just turns into a parody of itself after a while. She's built like some sort of weird Barbie doll (with insanely long legs, a miniscule waist, and enormous chest), she wears 'sexy librarian' glasses, sucks on a lollipop, wears black leather, walks with a ridiculous hip sway walk, has tons of bondage themed attacks, and her ultra attacks literally involve her clothes flying off. Just take her for what she is: an over the top parody of over-sexualized game characters.

I think you're ignoring that she has meaningful relationships with the other characters, as well as personal motivations and ambitions that don't boil down to "must please a man!".

And again, pretty much every aspect of Bayonetta's design is reflective of pro-sex/ sex-postive feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism#Key_ideas

 

[NeutralDrow]

Yes, oddly enough. She's absolutely a hypersexualized character, but I don't think I've seen another female protagonist who so totally owned her own sexuality the way Bayonetta does. I don't even see her as being satirical, because of that. A satire of oversexualized action heroines would look and act a lot different; if Bayonetta were really a parody, she spend less time kicking as much ass as she does, she'd be spending a lot more attention to Luka as a matter of course, instead of as a matter of development, and she'd have a lot less character overall.

To put it more simply, fanservice is when a character does something absurdly sexy with the intention that "I'm doing this for you." To me, Bayonetta's entire character practically screams, instead, "I'm doing this for me, and I'm having the time of my life doing so." That strikes me as resolutely positive.

 

[Worgen]

Asking if Bayonetta is a good representation of female game characters is sort of like asking if Duke Nukem is a good depiction of male action heroes: both are so over the top and created with the idea of poking fun at their respective archetypes that you really can't take them seriously at all.

Everything about Bayonetta is so hilariously over the top sexualized that it just turns into a parody of itself after a while. She's built like some sort of weird Barbie doll (with insanely long legs, a miniscule waist, and enormous chest), she wears 'sexy librarian' glasses, sucks on a lollipop, wears black leather, walks with a ridiculous hip sway walk, has tons of bondage themed attacks, and her ultra attacks literally involve her clothes flying off. Just take her for what she is: an over the top parody of over-sexualized game characters.

Actually aside from her legs, the rest of her is pretty normal proportions.

Unlike someone like Ivy, who is wacky.

I also found this and had to add it.

 

[Kungfusam]

She is a rare example of a modern day videogame character that actually enjoys what she does, she never whines or cries and constantly faces up to challenges with pure confidence

At one point a giant demonic angel thing casually dismisses her so she beats the crap out of it, while smacktalking

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Okay, I'm kind of on the fence with this, but I'm kind of leaning to yes.
Except there are a few things holding me back.

Not sure.

I can't really dislike her design. It's so over the top and blatant about it. I definitely prefer that approach to, "Looook, she's a totally awesome and legit female character... and if you looooook really carefully you can see her labia, teeheehee!"

However I don't personally find her attractive, so I may be the wrong person to ask.

Also...

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

This is definitely true.

First is the whole, "overly sexy, for humor" thing.
Yeah, that seems to be part of Bayonetta, but you can't also let that distract you from seeing that she still is kind of made of at least a few "classic" fetishes.

Though, that alone isn't bad, and they are somewhat different from the "more common" ones you see in other games. Kind of.

However, Zira argued that the fact that she is inherently designed to be appealing to male gamers is a form of objectification in and on itself which is a prefectly valid point. So... who's side are you taking? Is Bayonetta a good female protagonist, able to stand on her own as a character or just a shallow way to pander to male gamers?

Isn't any attractive female character (regardless of medium) made to appeal to males on the physical level in some form? So, then can only ugly and purposefully unattractive women be good female protagonists? And, that line of logic is beyond flawed because then an any real women that are attractive are themselves "bad" real female protagonists (and attractiveness is subjective as well).

I think Bayonetta is an awesome female protagonist, I love everything about her. She's just damn entertaining, and I just LOVE "good" cheesy humor and she's overflowing with it.

I really love MovieBob's analysis of Bayonetta as well:

Spoiler

---

Bob really does give an entertaining view on Bayonetta. But it is also partially a "joke" as well.
Though, it shows how Bayonetta can be viewed differently from other "sexy characters".

Asking if Bayonetta is a good representation of female game characters is sort of like asking if Duke Nukem is a good depiction of male action heroes: both are so over the top and created with the idea of poking fun at their respective archetypes that you really can't take them seriously at all.

Everything about Bayonetta is so hilariously over the top sexualized that it just turns into a parody of itself after a while. She's built like some sort of weird Barbie doll (with insanely long legs, a miniscule waist, and enormous chest), she wears 'sexy librarian' glasses, sucks on a lollipop, wears black leather, walks with a ridiculous hip sway walk, has tons of bondage themed attacks, and her ultra attacks literally involve her clothes flying off. Just take her for what she is: an over the top parody of over-sexualized game characters.

I think you're ignoring that she has meaningful relationships with the other characters, as well as personal motivations and ambitions that don't boil down to "must please a man!".

And again, pretty much every aspect of Bayonetta's design is reflective of pro-sex/ sex-postive feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism#Key_ideas

Okay, I got a few questions about this.

I haven't played the games, so please answer them as best you can, and don't worry about spoilers.

If Bayonetta is a sex-positive feminism character, does she actually have sex?
I know she "apparently" has a daughter, so we know she has had sex before. [sub]Unless the daughter was conceived immaculately/she was adopted[/sub].

Again, I haven't played the game, so I don't know, but while Bayonetta doesn't completely match a "regular" "sexy character". She seems to have one thing in common.

She seems to do a lot of "sexy things", and is aware of it, but I haven't heard anything about her actually doing anything actually involving sex/a relationship with another person.

I'm not asking to actually see her have sex, but it would be nice if the character who is suppose to be the one "in control of her sexuality", did do something with it.

What I'm asking is, would she be the kind of character Jim is asking for in this video?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists

A playable main character with an actual love life.

Granted, she doesn't have to have a relationship in the game to be a "good female character", but it would help and definitely make her a pretty unique character in video games.

 

[NeutralDrow]

If Bayonetta is a sex-positive feminism character, does she actually have sex?
I know she "apparently" has a daughter, so we know she has had sex before. [sub]Unless the daughter was conceived immaculately/she was adopted[/sub].

Spoiler

She doesn't. Yahtzee guessed that Cereza was either Bayonetta's daughter or "a younger version of herself," and the latter was correct.

She seems to do a lot of "sexy things", and is aware of it, but I haven't heard anything about her actually doing anything actually involving sex/a relationship with another person.

I'm not asking to actually see her have sex, but it would be nice if the character who is suppose to be the one "in control of her sexuality", did do something with it.

She never does in the game, of course (barring the occasional nudity, sexually torturing certain angel types to death, and <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiDv5Y8J7Ks>teasing Luka), and we never find out about specific past encounters, but she does express a few things she likes in lovers (though generally while mocking the angels for not measuring up, especially the main bosses, who she scolds for being overly talkative). She does outright admit to enjoying sex, though.

"Come now, Cheshire. Look at me. Do I look like I have any interest in children? Now making them... Well, that's another story."

As for relationships, she does start to take a shine to Luka by the end of the game (strongly hinted to be mutual), but we'll have to wait for Bayonetta 2 to come out before finding out if that went anywhere.

 

[lechat]

I disagree that bayonetta is satire.
sure she is massively overly sexualized but none of that is directed at any male characters like the typical easy to get horny bimbo that we usually see in gaming.
her sexual prowess seems to pretty accurately reflect her fighting ability and left her more, to me as some sort of untouchable sex fighting goddess siren that would sooner beat you into submission than let you touch her girlie bits. in essence basically your typical dominatrix character and not the typical submissive fuck toy we usually expect in our games.

not sure if i would call her a positive female role model but she seems to spend more time focusing on her own goals than thinking about what will land her prince charming or if her ass looks fat in those jeans (she knows her ass looks amazing in those jeans)

also she doesn't seem too far out of proportion when you stack her up against a real flesh and blood female human animal

 

[MrBaskerville]

I´d say that she´s a different and unique female videogame character, which would make her a positive character. The big problem with female videogame characters is that we almost always get the same 2-3 stereotypes (atleast outside of fighting games and jrpgs). Bayonetta is different and she´s far from weak or subservient so i´d say she´s a positive example.

 

[The Wykydtron]

God i'm posting on a likely sexism thread, wish me luck guys i'm goin' in.

How did I put my thoughts on Bayonetta again? Something like, she keeps being sexy throughout the entire game but she stops being sexually attractive before the second hour. She's just in-character.

I will say she's a good example, she gives zero fucks about anything, nevermind anything about pleasing a man or what have you. Her main relationships are a friendship/rivalry with another woman, a little girl, that comedic Italian guy who occasionally comes up and she breaks his car every single time with zero sympathy or apologies, the demon barkeeper and Luka who she just toys around with for the better half of the game with the barest hint of possible romance towards the end. It might be worth noting that Luka is implied to be quite the suave ladies man in his intro scene but gets facerolled by Bayonetta immediately.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

also she doesn't seem too far out of proportion when you stack her up against a real flesh and blood female human animal

Ok, maybe i'm damaged because i once had aspirations of becoming a character artist... but sorry, what? Her proportions are ridiculous. If you think that's how a real woman looks, boy are you going to be disappointed when you get one in the bedroom

Her body is very elongated, especially the arms and legs. Her head is also tiny for the body. Looks nice, but hardly realistic. At all. I'm pretty sure she stretches beyond the already exaggerated "heroic" type proportions we are more accustomed to seeing in western games.

 

[Something Amyss]

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

Admittedly, I haven't played it start to finish, but it's hard to differentiate satire when it looks identical to the things it satirises.

I'm quite the rampant feminist, yet Bayonetta doesn't bother me much. And that's because everything about her says "I'm a sexist character and I'm very well aware of it!". And when the character gleefully admits to being sexist, what's the reason to get angry?

I'm not sure about angry, but the number of people who disagree with that assessment might make for a point of contention.

To me she's just a goofy character not to be taken serious. Atleast, no more than Kratos or any other power fantasy.

Thing is, I see people take Kratos pretty seriously a lot. I get what you're saying, but Kratos is played pretty straight whereas Bayo's supposed to be for humour or something. I mean, Kratos is pretty ridiculous, but he's treated like a badass by fans. And while it kind of brings me back to the "satire that's indistinguishable" thing, it also makes me think about Omega's post.

I saw somebody ask "However, here's an idea: would Bayonetta still work as a character WITHOUT all the pandering?" what about "Would Bayonetta still work as an unattractive character?". Not to be offensive but we have all seen the ugly generalization, big glasses, braces, unkempt hair, spots, goofy demeanor etc. would the game be as big if Bayonetta looked like ...

Spoiler: This

And my answer ends up being no.

Take away the cheesecake, and I don't think the game would sell like it did. Further, without any remaining need to justify it, I don't think people would be so quick to call it satire.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

All that being said, Bayonetta is a good character. But is a character made by males for males. She makes satire of fanservice, but at the same time gives all the fanservice you might want, and you're free to ogle her without feeling guilty about her objectification because hey! Parody!

She was actually designed by a woman. Her character always struck me as a female power fantasy which would fit with Platinum Games' running theme of subversion in their games.

For example, Vanquish-a game about massive grizzled serious space marines...and you play a pixie male character who is ridiculously gravely-voiced and more badass despite having almost no muscles.

Revengance has you playing a badass male cyborg ninja...who also happens to enjoy the use of heels. And its totally okay.

I should also note that Platinum's action games are built around the idea of player excellence. That is, playing them well requires an incredible amount of skill and practice which when done right, fits into the characterization of their protagonists.

I also don't understand the argument of "she's sexy, yeah, but she's sexy FOR HERSELF". Nobody is sexy for themselves, since that would destroy the entire point of being sexy, which is to attract partners.
It would be more correct to say that she's not sexy for any character in the game, but for the player.

I like characters like Bayonetta. Although I wish we could keep seeing characters like her while also seeing more examples of female characters like this:

Have you ever worn something nice, just because you felt like it that day? I know I sometimes dress up despite knowing I won't be seeing anyone important just because I like the feeling I get from wearing a sharp suit.

I think one may get kinda offended by designs such as Bayonetta's only because her satire ends up just displaying that she is the only kind of female videogame character who is allowed.

Considering the sale figures for Bayonetta, I don't think she was allowed either. She was just too sexually intimidating for the mainstream audiences.

That said, I do agree that more female protagonist types are needed. I think the main problem is that devs borrow from such a limited pool of movies and media for inspiration. Why not draw from something like The Ballad of Narayana, Sympathy for Lady Vengance, or Ginger SNaps?

 

[omega 616]

I think one may get kinda offended by designs such as Bayonetta's only because her satire ends up just displaying that she is the only kind of female videogame character who is allowed.

It isn't satire, in anyway! Satire is "vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, corporations, and society itself, into improvement." which Bayonetta doesn't do ... is a bit like saying the WBC is satire.


It seems to me that people are just creating this "it's satire" shield to protect something they like. They are trying to put some intellectual spin on the game so they can rationalize it beyond "I think shes sexy".

Another example is lollipop chainsaw, "it's not sexist" they say as they know all about the "look up her skirt" achievement!

I might be able to swallow the whole satire angle if there weren't so many fucking examples of fan service! The industry just has too many barbie dolls in it for them all to be satire.

I haven't played last of us but I know it's about a white guy and a young girl ... I have to ask, did you realistically expect to play as the girl? Think about that game, you as a 15 (at a guess) year old girl protecting a 30 odd man? Or the guy being an NPC who leads you by the hand through the game and the game is basically a hide and seek sim for you?

It isn't sexism for an older guy to protect a young girl. It might work better if you gender swapped the guy, have the story be a woman who lost her daughter, then stumbles across an orphan, who she then treats as her own.