Do you think Bayonetta is a positive example of a female protagonist?

[Weaver]

Of the two females I know who played the game to completion, they both loved the character.
Take that small anecdotal evidence for what you will.

I'm a woman too. To be blunt, I think "I know this woman who is totally fine with this sexist character" is a bit like a racist saying "I have a black friend". XD

Yes, I fully understand that. Don't worry . That said, I wouldn't have pontificated it if they were merely "fine" with the character. They REALLY like the character. They get excited when they talk about Bayonetta, are really looking forward to the sequel, etc; It's not merely a character they found inoffensive, it's a character that struck a chord with them.

Again, this is two people in a gender of roughly 4 billion (give or take) so I'm not trying to generalize every single female ever on their experiences. But at the same time, I think it's wrong for people (not yourself, mind you) claim she's some kind of affront to females everywhere.

All that being said, Bayonetta is a good character. But is a character made by males for males.

Which would be true if she weren't created by Mari Shimazaki, who is a woman:
http://www.destructoid.com/platinum-only-a-woman-could-design-bayonetta-148258.phtml

Now, I'm pretty stupid but even I'm not stupid enough to believe Hideki Kamiya had NO say in the design. I don't really have sources to back that up, but he seems kind of like a bit of a ... well, not "control freak" but it seems like he wants to be involved in everything in his games. So, while Mari Shimazaki is attributed as the character designer officially, I do wonder how much input Hideki had.

It seems to me that people are just creating this "it's satire" shield to protect something they like. They are trying to put some intellectual spin on the game so they can rationalize it beyond "I think shes sexy".

What if I don't think she's sexy? I invite you to play the game trough to completion and examine her character arc.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I don't know, because I never played it and probably never will. I think the character is hideous, though. I remember that style of horrible librarian glasses being all the rage in 2001. Call the fashion police.

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

Welcome to what Kill la Kill is like. It has some feminist messages but I do see a having your cake and eating it since while the main characters make a point about either being comfortable in your own skin and the like (see episode 3 for the big speech about it), it does seem a bit much at times.

Regardless, Bayonetta is a bit of a positive message if you are a supporter for sex-positive feminism (i am a bit in that I think people should be willing to express themselves without fear but I'm a guy so my point may be biased) but I can see the having the cake and eating it

Seriously, Japan is odd like this, some of the fanservice has a point and some of it is for the sake of pandering so it's hard to make a dividing line. My theory is that Japan is a bit more liberal about sexuality compared to America due to cultural differences rooted in the differences in Shinto and Christianity(Panties and underwear were not common until the 50's see this article [http://www.jref.com/japan/society/japanese_underwear.shtml] for more info). It could be argued that we are arguing from a western perspective when we need to adopt a Japanese perspective to evaluate the character but from our point of view, it's a bit of both so lets agree on that.

 

[DrOswald]

All that being said, Bayonetta is a good character. But is a character made by males for males. She makes satire of fanservice, but at the same time gives all the fanservice you might want, and you're free to ogle her without feeling guilty about her objectification because hey! Parody!

See, that's the thing. I think most people have it wrong. I don't thing Bayonetta is a satire of sexy characters. I think she is designed as an expression of sexuality. I have read many interviews about Bayonetta and I have never scene anyone claim that the point of the sexuality was satire. Hideki Kamiya even once said in an interview that Bayonetta is very nearly his ideal woman. That hardly seems like satire to me. But I do think Bayonetta is different from other sexy women characters because while she is made to be sexy it is sincere, not cynical.

I am not sure if I will be able to explain myself well, but I will try. Also, all my opinion, so take it for what it is worth.

Many (perhaps even most) sexy female characters are made for the express purpose of including a pair of barely covered breasts to attract horny guys. There is no real art in this. Nothing is being expressed by the artists creating the woman. These women feel cold, cynical, empty and above all false. Most sexy women in video games are not artistic expression, they are checking a box on a list. This is fan service: The cynical exploitation of sexuality.

Bayonetta, on the other hand, feels like a sincere expression of sexuality. That is the purpose of the character, to express what the artist thinks and feels about sex. Bayonetta is a conduit to expresses how sex is silly, ridiculous and very fun. Of course there is going to be a lot of sexiness in Bayonetta, the subject matter is sex. This is art: the sincere expression of sexuality.

The problem is that gamers are so used to the cynical depiction of sex that they have trouble recognizing actual expression of sexuality. They can tell it is different from the normal cynical depiction but they can't quite put their finger on it. So most people assume it is satire, which I think is completely false.

I also don't understand the argument of "she's sexy, yeah, but she's sexy FOR HERSELF". Nobody is sexy for themselves, since that would destroy the entire point of being sexy, which is to attract partners.
It would be more correct to say that she's not sexy for any character in the game, but for the player.

I think you are wrong here. A person can be sexy for themselves, and the in universe character of Bayonetta is a perfect example. Bayonetta is not sexy for the purpose of attracting a partner. She chooses to be sexy because she enjoys it, not so other people can enjoy her. That is what it means to be sexy for yourself.

Out of universe it is more complex, because art is complex. Art is expression from the artist to the person who experiences the art. Therefore Bayonetta is sexy for the artist (specifically for their purpose of expression) and sexy for the player (so they can understand what is being expressed.) She is sexy for the art.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

Admittedly, I haven't played it start to finish, but it's hard to differentiate satire when it looks identical to the things it satirises.

That's the issue here.

And you hear the satire defense so often that you have to wonder... when all the sexist portrayals are satire, what
are they satirizing to begin with?


About Bayonetta herself: I don't know. Could be better, could be worse, I guess. But then again she's from a Japanese game and you can't really expect a lot from Japanese games in this regard.

 

[gamernerdtg2]

Bayonetta is one of the last great games of its type. I beat it, and I enjoyed it. You become desensitized to the fact that her clothes come off when she destroys larger enemies, and all the other wacky stuff. It's very Japanese, which means that they don't see sex and sexuality as we westerners do.

That's not an excuse, it's just something to note.

My wife was very uncomfortable with the game, and I sold it. Bayonetta is a witch/dominatrix/model/cat-walking/nerd.
The game itself doesn't need all the extremes that it has. It's got amazing mechanics, and solid gameplay.

This is why I don't agree with people who say that gameplay should be excluded. No one is talking about how good the game is in relation to the OP's question. If Bayonetta was a terrible game, there would be no discussion.

The fact that it's one of the best games in its genre is the reason for the attention. It's an amazing game. I don't really care for the exhibitionist/sexist themes. The game can do without them and it would still be a solid game. The frustrating part is that I can't own this game without alienating my wife - which is why I'm frustrated over this whole issue. It's a good game in a dying genre.

 

[katsabas]

Well, the whole theme of the game is the innuendos. When it comes to these, she is a great protagonist. She says exactly what people want to hear. The sex thing is wrapped up in an interesting combat system so I think that as far as females go, she is pretty strong.

It always depends on the context and content of the game and she fills the niche quite nicely in this case.

 

[EvilRoy]

Have you ever worn something nice, just because you felt like it that day? I know I sometimes dress up despite knowing I won't be seeing anyone important just because I like the feeling I get from wearing a sharp suit.

Most people likely have, but you need to remember that it isn't really a good thing since it may demonstrate a self predicated on external perception.

Although not likely recommended by your therapist, an enjoyable way to check if its internal or external is to wake up bright an early on Sunday, dress in your finest, and spend the entire day inside eating chips on the couch. If your good feeling is predicated on external factors the knowledge that nobody will see you plus the knowledge that you aren't being especially productive should make you feel a bit down. If its all internal you'll feel good about dressing up even if you don't change the channel for six hours because the remote is too far away. One is dressing the part to improve your perception of how others view you, the other is basically making the external match the internal (if you feel like the boss on the inside, then making the outside match will make you feel good regardless of affirmation.)

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

snip

You know, i never felt like The Last of Us was supposed to be about Ellie. Sure, she was the second most important character but when i played the game i definately felt like it was supposed to be Joels story through and through. But of course that's not the topic of this discussion.

I only partly agree with the fact that Bayonetta is only supposed to be sexy for the player. I do believe that it strongly played into her interaction with some of the characters, Luca in particular. What i found interesting about their relationship was that it was subverting the usual gender roles in that kind of story, meaning that Bayonetta took on the dominant part while Luka was the one being seduced after first being quite hesitant. Now i don't delude myself into thinking that this wasn't a male fantasy in its own way but i find the fact that a woman was shown as the dominant part of a budding relationship to be quite unusual in its own right. The only male she ever treats as an equal is Rodin who's obviously supposed to be the devil of their world and even he can be beat by her.

And i'm all for physically unattractive female characters. I always thought that older people (As in, 50+) in general are underrepresented in video games and i think a female space marine with the physique of a bodybuilder would be an interesting character to play as. But personally i think there are far from a gazillion ugly male protagonists and i challenge you to name a few.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

Admittedly, I haven't played it start to finish, but it's hard to differentiate satire when it looks identical to the things it satirises.

That's the issue here.

And you hear the satire defense so often that you have to wonder... when all the sexist portrayals are satire, what
are they satirizing to begin with?


About Bayonetta herself: I don't know. Could be better, could be worse, I guess. But then again she's from a Japanese game and you can't really expect a lot from Japanese games in this regard.

see my post on why saying that "it's a Japanese game" is a bit off in my mind. It's a different culture with different views on sexuality (and a lot of pandering) and sex itself compared to America. I would think it's best to try to use a Japanese perspective to help evaluate though from my perspective, it's a bit of having a positive message and a bit of pandering

 

[CloudAtlas]

About Bayonetta herself: I don't know. Could be better, could be worse, I guess. But then again she's from a Japanese game and you can't really expect a lot from Japanese games in this regard.

see my post on why saying that "it's a Japanese game" is a bit off in my mind. It's a different culture with different views on sexuality (and a lot of pandering) and sex itself compared to America. I would think it's best to try to use a Japanese perspective to help evaluate though from my perspective, it's a bit of having a positive message and a bit of pandering

Japanese society is deeply sexist, and hence it's no wonder if media originating from this society is reflecting that, yes. But that doesn't make it any better. Sexism is not a culture-specific concept, and being more backwards in this regard in general is not a great excuse. I won't judge the content creators as harshly because what they're doing might be perfectly acceptable where they come from, so you can't expect them to know any better, but I will not be more lenient with the result of their efforts. If it's on the shelves here I will apply the same standards.

 

[Kotaro]

I don't actually think she's really objectified, personally.

I simply feel everything is just so over the top that I didn't, at any point, actually find her attractive and that any "objectification" would be thrust into the realm of ridiculous parody. It would be like calling the Adam West Batman "violent" when it's just camp.

Sex, I postulate, is Bayonetta's theme. As in, Aquaman is thematically based off oceanic life and characteristics, Bayonetta is based on bondage and sex and it's portrayed in an incredibly campy way.

Further, I see her as sexually intimidating. And I feel it's good to have a strong female character who isn't ashamed of her sexuality. Most female characters in games are either ice queens (they simply aren't interested in sex) or they act very "innocent/meek" so to speak. Bayonetta is neither. Does she like sex? Obviously. Does she need attention from any of the male characters to make her feel good about herself, how she looks, who she is? Fuck no, sh doesn't need you at all.

Every situation she's in, she is more or less in complete control of and she knows it.
I think she's a great character.

She was also designed by Mari Shimazaki who, is a woman:
http://www.destructoid.com/platinum-only-a-woman-could-design-bayonetta-148258.phtml

Further, the dynamic between her and Luka (if anyone besides me bothered to play the game) is a complete gender role reversal. She frequently orders Luka to retreat to safety while she fights the huge monsters (because, need I remind you, she is in charge).

You took the words right out of my mouth. Beyonetta works because of her confidence and independence. It's also worth pointing out that Hideki Kamiya, the game's director, generally dislikes most of the Rule 34 stuff around Bayonetta. Not because it's sex, no. But because much of it depicts her as submissive, which she most certainly is not.

 

[ForumSafari]

The thing that tends to get overlooked is that a lot of real women aren't examples of strong female characters either. Bayonetta is somewhere in the realistic pile but to be honest there aren't many examples of weak female behaviour in games I haven't seen mirrored by real women over the years.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

About Bayonetta herself: I don't know. Could be better, could be worse, I guess. But then again she's from a Japanese game and you can't really expect a lot from Japanese games in this regard.

see my post on why saying that "it's a Japanese game" is a bit off in my mind. It's a different culture with different views on sexuality (and a lot of pandering) and sex itself compared to America. I would think it's best to try to use a Japanese perspective to help evaluate though from my perspective, it's a bit of having a positive message and a bit of pandering

Japanese society is deeply sexist, and hence it's no wonder if media originating from this society is reflecting that, yes. But that doesn't make it any better. Sexism is not a culture-specific concept, and being more backwards in this regard in general is not a great excuse. I won't judge the content creators as harshly because what they're doing might be perfectly acceptable where they come from, so you can't expect them to know any better, but I will not be more lenient with the result of their efforts. If it's on the shelves here I will apply the same standards.

I will admit that Japan is sexist but not in the way you think. In the workplace, the man is fully dominant, no question about that, but at home, any husband will tell you that you do not go against the wife.

Is it still sexist: yes because it sets clear boundaries for each gender to take. But, this is just something I wanted to make clear

OT. if this is so then what is the place of a sexually charged women in Japan because the typical sexist stereotype is of the Yamato Nadeshiko who is timid, loyal, and gentile with her willing to fight only through indirect means. Bayonetta may be sexist but opposite of what the Japanese see it as traditional. See, there is a paradigm called Nikushoku and Shoshoku or Carnivorous women and Herbivorous men; Basically, women are becoming more assertive and controlling while men are becoming more docile. If this is true, and it has been for some time, then Bayonetta may be the epitome of Nikushoku: someone who is dominant over men, in full control of her sexuality, and basically plays with men. This is basically sex-positive feminism though Platinum is definably going for cheesecake; regardless, this issue is blurry as hell because I believe we are both correct: that Japan is sexist and that Bayonetta is pandering and that Bayonetta is different from traditional Japanese ideals of women. We definably will have to debate more

note: any japanese culture people are happy to comment on nikushoku and shoshoku if needed

 

[CloudAtlas]

I will admit that Japan is sexist but not in the way you think. In the workplace, the man is fully dominant, no question about that, but at home, any husband will tell you that you do not go against the wife.

Is it still sexist: yes because it sets clear boundaries for each gender to take. But, this is just something I wanted to make clear

Thank you but I think I understand Japanese culture just fine. I dealt with it extensively in my studies.

Bayonetta is certainly not reflecting traditional Japanese femininity. But she's still sexualized plenty, in a way that you just couldn't do anymore in the West, not without sparking much controversy anyway.

But that's why I said, well, as an example of a female protagonist, she could be better, but she could also be worse. Easily. Namely, just as bad as all too many other female characters in Japanese games, manga, or anime.
　

 

[Saltarius]

I always found Bayonetta to be pretty tame when it came to sexuality, barring the ending video and the nudity during boss finishers.

Regardless, I think that she could work without the sexual elements, but that kind of removes her flair and the satirical point.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I will admit that Japan is sexist but not in the way you think. In the workplace, the man is fully dominant, no question about that, but at home, any husband will tell you that you do not go against the wife.

Is it still sexist: yes because it sets clear boundaries for each gender to take. But, this is just something I wanted to make clear

Thank you but I think I understand Japanese culture just fine. I dealt with it extensively in my studies.

Bayonetta is certainly not reflecting traditional Japanese femininity. But she's still sexualized plenty, in a way that you just couldn't do anymore in the West, not without sparking much controversy anyway.

But that's why I said, well, as an example of a female protagonist, she could be better, but she could also be worse. Easily. Namely, just as bad as all too many other female characters in Japanese games, manga, or anime.
　

apologies, I was unaware as a fair chunk of people don't actually know about the Japanese culture so I made the statement that anyone can correct me. Still, the thing with Platinum is that they always are a bit tongue in check about their games so this is part of it. In my biased mind, this type of thing may work since Bayonetta is the one in control, not any of the male characters.

By the way, what do you think about Matoi Ryuko and Kiryuin Satsuki since those two are now part of this big "women should love their bodies thing" at least in theory seen here [http://i.imgur.com/DpG1VIk.jpg]? Is we giving Gainax too much credit or do they actually have soemthing?