Do you think Bayonetta is a positive example of a female protagonist?

[NeutralDrow]

Interestingly enough its not a man who saves her but another woman. The women in this game control all the real power.

I hadn't consciously noticed that, but all of a sudden the fact that

Spoiler

both God and the demon who punches God into the sun are both female, too,

makes a ton of sense.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Still, I gotta pose the question. If you were related to Bayonetta, if she were your daughter, sister, or mother, how would you feel? I think that'd answer the question, there.

That question is kinda loaded, given that most people try not to think about their family member's sex lives at all.

But on that note, I have a younger sister who sometimes wears things I would consider sexy on a woman I'm not related to, and I don't really care.

Sexiness in fictional characters is a thing. I've come to terms with that a long time ago. I don't mind if a character, male or female, is designed to be nice to look at by the opposite sex. Hell, I admit I can even appreciate it in the case of female characters, so as far as I'm concerned what's good for the Gander is good for the Goose.

I don't even mind a character being absurdly sexy. What gets my goat is when said characters are dressed in absurdly skimpy outfits that seem to be designed by what someone thinks other people find sexy. I think an excellent case in point is Ivy from the Soul Calibur series. I find it kinda annoying the way they increase her bust size while shrinking her primary outfit every iteration of the series (On the other hand, I usually love her secondary outfit, and almost always consider it sexier than the Incredible Shrinking Battle Bikini).

I gotta disagree that it's loaded. I think it's an angle worth considering.
Parents worry about their offspring's sex lives a lot. The whole "you're not leaving this house dressed like that" likely has a seed of reality. Parents are protective of their daughters, brothers of their sisters, and offspring of their parents. Odds are good Bayonetta could be a role model for guys, too, somehow or another so it's not necessarily limited to women.
They may not directly think of people near and dear to them as sources of sex, but everyone that looks up to Bayonetta is near and dear to someone, and likely will add to the list of people that they're near and dear to going into a relationship.

Basically, it's easy for one to say she's a good role model, or not regarding people one may not ever meet, but I think it's worth the consideration that the person looking up to Bayonetta could be someone near, and dear.

I mean, is Bayonetta a good rolemodel to the girlfriend when the boyfriend demands she stops acting and dressing like Bayonetta now that they hooked up because she had Bayonetta as a rolemodel? How good the relationship isn't the question, but rather the suitability of Bayonetta as a rolemodel to each of them.

Of course it's worth keeping in mind it doesn't have to be all or nothing with a rolemodel. Some aspects can be glommed onto while others less so.

All in all, for me, it's no simple matter. Different strokes for different folks.

I kinda agree with you in situations like Ivy, and it does get absurd the way she's utilized in sex sells marketing (and I have doubts in how true sex sells is thanks to assorted articles at Cracked.), but on the other hand, I don't mind looking at the female form (realistic, or not.) now and then, and she does have a secondary outfit which I appreciate as well. At least there's some counterbalance in Soul Calibur to the sexualization which is more than some games can say.

 

[DarklordKyo]

Well, there are theories that she's a walking satire of oversexualization. On top of that, she's an incredible badass that can...

Spoiler

...kill God...

..by the end of the game. I would say she kinda is.

 

[KazeAizen]

Interestingly enough its not a man who saves her but another woman. The women in this game control all the real power.

I hadn't consciously noticed that, but all of a sudden the fact that

Spoiler

both God and the demon who punches God into the sun are both female, too,

makes a ton of sense.

Exactly. While all the "Big" angles you right before then have very masculine voices save for one so they are subservient to an even more powerful deity. Not to mention the one man with real power

Spoiler

Gets crushed to death before the real final battle even begins.

As much crap as they get for talking bad about games I'd really like to see feminists like Sarkesian step up and talk about Bayonetta and how it is truly a girl power game if you want to think about it. Its the one game I've played that after I think about it all the male characters are either incompetent, idiots, powerless, or pushed to the side with all the symbols of power in the game are female. Like at the end or the source of your main attacks MADAM Butterfly.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I mean, is Bayonetta a good rolemodel to the girlfriend when the boyfriend demands she stops acting and dressing like Bayonetta now that they hooked up because she had Bayonetta as a rolemodel? How good the relationship isn't the question, but rather the suitability of Bayonetta as a rolemodel to each of them.

Yes. And she'd be a good role model to the boyfriend as well, though the scenario makes it sound like he wouldn't get the hint.

It's not like self-confident sexy flirtatiousness is incompatible with monogamy.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Princess Peach in Super Princess Peach is more positive for female protagonists than Bayonetta.

In fact, I'll go as far as say Heather Mason from Silent Hill 3 is more positive.

I don't see how that's a stretch. I usually don't give Silent Hill 3 that much thought because i prefer SH2 but it would never occur to me that Heather was a bad protagonist. On that matter i think she's actually a pretty great one.

I'm kinda on the fence about my opinion. She won't be ideal for everyone, but she will be for some, that's for sure. If a person says yes, or no, I'd respect it.

Still, I gotta pose the question. If you were related to Bayonetta, if she were your daughter, sister, or mother, how would you feel? I think that'd answer the question, there.

Heck, if she were your significant other, how you feel about that kinda says something.

I don't think that that question is really applicable to any of us seeing how Bayonettas world and this one are too different which would put it in a significantly different context.

Or in other words: If my daughter, sister, mother or girlfriend regularly killed archangels, could summon demons at will and would be able to use a large variety of supernatural weapons i would never even dare to try to tell her how to act in public.

 

[Dragonbums]

Despite Bayonetta's over sexualization, my female friends and I actually view her as a female power fantasy.

One of the big reasons for me is because she's dressed sexy and SHE'S AWARE THAT SHE IS, uses it somewhat to her advantage, and kicks ass. Her entire attire matches her personality to a T. The same can hardly be said for the other scantily clad women in games that dress such a way, and it never really fits into what they are, what they are doing, and how they go about doing things.

 

[DaViller]

I disagree with this, because this seems to imply that a female's power fantasy is to use sex to her advantage.

I would ask you as to why that can´t be part of female power fantasy? You seem to suggest that sexuality absolutly cannot be part of a female power fantasy, wich doesn´t acknowledge that power fantasys do vary a lot from individual to individual. Power fantasys are about what we want. Some want to be batman because of his intelligence, wealth and rouge additude, some want to be son goku cause he can punch stuff very hard and again others want to be miles edgeworth cause he can wear a totally bitchting suit that would get me fired if I wore it to work. Being bayonetta walking into a room and immediatly causing any dude around to feel intimidated by sheer sex appeal, along with being able to punch with the force of infinite tons, seems like a pretty legit power fantasy to me (though im not a woman of course).


I like bayonetta not precisely because of her sex appeal but because of the coolness that comes with it. I´m not sure how to describe it properly, I generally like absurdist stuff and bayonetta just nails that "yeah im fighting a godlike entity while still having time to strike poses" thing perfectly and I dont think that would work without the ridicoulus sexualisation. I also like that she is kind of her own mother to some degree, wich means her badassery is almost completly self made and self inspired.

As for bayonetta being a role model, I wouldn´t use a hyped up character like bayonetta, dante or kratos (well that one especially) as a role model to begin with but it´s not like she doesn´t have good qualitys. She seems to be a rather cool mother, shes badass while still being able to show empathy and she can breakdance. So not realy the ideal role model but there sure are much worse (again kratos, seriously I did not play GoW 1 and 2 but that guy is complete psychopath in 3).

Besides that: I have never heard of that squirrel girl before and I am thankfull that I now have.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Man this thread. Fuck female characters, there is always something sexist about them, it's so ridiculous, that it's no wonder the west doesn't make a lot of female characters. There's something sexist about them, no matter what. The moment people find something they don't like about a female character is the moment it becomes fucking sexist.

I payed close attention and I didn't notice a single questionable thing in the portrayal of Lara Croft when playing 2013's Tomb Raider, so there's that.

 

[CloudAtlas]

I disagree with this, because this seems to imply that a female's power fantasy is to use sex to her advantage.

I would ask you as to why that can´t be part of female power fantasy? You seem to suggest that sexuality absolutly cannot be part of a female power fantasy, wich doesn´t acknowledge that power fantasys do vary a lot from individual to individual. Power fantasys are about what we want.

I don't believe she suggested that it can never be a fantasy. Just that it generally isn't (in this context).

I remember a discussion from some time ago where some guy defended the MMO Scarlet Blade, where really every character is female and objectified and sexualized to the max, with a rationale like this: Women want to be sexy, the characters in Scarlet blade are sexy, hence the game is empowering women, fulfilling women's power fantasies.
That might be a similar argument.

 

[an annoyed writer]

I'm unsure. She definitely has the character traits that some would consider being pro-female, being a strong, confident woman who don't need no man, but at the same time her design seems to be very fan-servicey. She's very caricatured though, so my answer is a very strong maybe. If you're a super-sexy dominatrix in-training, she might be a positive role-model, but if you're using her looks, proportions, and general appearance as your guide to what's good-looking or not, you should probably find someone else to look up to in that department. So character-wise? Sure, but appearance-wise, no chance in hell for the vast majority of people alive today.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

Ellen Ripley: a character who is a woman, but sexuality does not play any part in her awesomeness. "Alien" movies would have been exactly the same had Ripley been a male.
She's not bad-looking, but she's not some oversexualized Barbie girl.

I disagree. Ellen Ripley would either wouldn't make sense, or be absolutely boring if she were male. The reason why she works so well in the Alien films is because she's such a contrast to what's expected in a slasher film (Alien), and because of the maternal elements in both her and the Alien Queen (Aliens). I'd even argue that Aliens is very much a feminist action movie given that the typical overtly masculine elements of 99% of action films has been entirely replaced by feminist symbols.

All I'm saying is, I'm disgusted by the very notion that a character made specifically as a male S/M fantasy would be considered "an empowered female".

She would be if you (by you I mean the conservative side of academic feminism) didn't equate sex or sexiness with exploitation in each and every incarnation, regardless of context.

Once again, the design and personality of Bayonetta can be seen here very clearly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

 

[Blaze the Dragon]

When I was playing bayonetta I actually liked her for her character and how hilarious the game was. Pretty much every sexy part of that game is played for laughs, and she pretty much just teases every other character in the game for her own fun. She's kind of got that "Fuck you I do what I want and you can't stop me" personality where she actually is having just as much fun as the player is while playing the game. I never once did anything like pause the game to get a good look at her or think to myself about how sexy she is while playing it or any of that nonsense. I was just always like "Fuck yeah this is awesome," and she was like "Yeah I know right? Now lets go punch god into the sun!"

Of course, I think I just love Platinum games, considering that I recently started playing all the other games they made, and other games made by people who became platinum. I mean, Bayonetta is basically a female Dante, and I love both characters.

Maybe they should make a crossover game with everything they've made called "Bayonetta May Cry: Revengance 101"

 

[WindKnight]

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

I have to agree with this.

I'm quite the rampant feminist, yet Bayonetta doesn't bother me much. And that's because everything about her says "I'm a sexist character and I'm very well aware of it!". And when the character gleefully admits to being sexist, what's the reason to get angry?

I agree with the points brought: she's a confident character, she's in control, she isn't afraid of her sexuality, she's strong, she doesn't need male leads... all extremely good qualities.
But all this in bathed in a strong sexism coat. Because if she REALLY was completely in control and strong and etc. etc. she might as well scare off some players.
"I'm a strong character, I beat up everyone, I don't need no man for my confidence..... but here's some sexy poses for you, player".

I've always taken her as a character who probably is an actual Domme as opposed to how videogames usually just used BSDM design elements to make their villainous femmes have a kink in their sexiness. Everything she does is for herself, not for a leering audience. I think this is why the creator got upset at all the hentai fanart. The essence of Bayonetta is dominance, control, and most hentai art treats its women as submissive or straight out victims.

She's a positive character to me, but I can see why people would disagree.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

Kinzie doesn't dresses provocatively, she doesn't act or talk sexy all of the time, basically she doesn't act like a sl*t the way Bayonetta does all of the time.

Wait what? You're equating being provocative with 'acting like a slut' despite the character never having sex in the game? I'm not sure you understand what sex-positive means...or at the very least, have little respect for it.

 

[chikusho]

Ellen Ripley: a character who is a woman, but sexuality does not play any part in her awesomeness. "Alien" movies would have been exactly the same had Ripley been a male.

Well.. no. It wouldn't. Alien is about the horror of rape, and it's deliberately targeted against the men.
If Ripley was a man he'd be dead in minutes.


OT: I think Bayonetta is great. I think her sexy poses is nothing other than her making a mockery out of everything around her. There's a lot of stuff to be gained from the fact that she was basically a nun before she became what she is at the beginning of the game. Consider that witches used to be culturally known as those who fly out on brooms and have sex with the devil. She's fully aware of what she's doing, and does it most likely just because it gets to people.

Also, she's not attractive and has the body of a freak.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Here's how you can quickly tell if a character if sexist: imagine your daughter or your mother being that character.
The hyper-sexually active Kinzie wouldn't make you feel embarassed if she was your child or mom. But Bayonetta most certainly would.

Out of interest, would you consider characters like Charlie Harper from Two and a Half Men or Barney Stinson from How I Met Your Mother to be an example of misandry? Because both characters are hyper-sexual womanizers who constantly try to pick up women and I would certainly be embarrassed if they were my son/brother/father.