Do you think Bayonetta is a positive example of a female protagonist?

[DrOswald]

I disagree with this, because this seems to imply that a female's power fantasy is to use sex to her advantage.

I would ask you as to why that can´t be part of female power fantasy?

Well, it's just as the poster above me wrote:

I don't believe she suggested that it can never be a fantasy. Just that it generally isn't (in this context).

Of course any woman wants to be attractive and sexy, just like I think any man wants to be attractive and popular with the ladies. That's a normal fantasy for both genders, I'd say.

That doesn't mean that most males have a power fantasy concerning them getting completely naked and striking up sexy poses while fighting.

There's a difference between a power fantasy and... well.... what Bayonetta does. Remember, Bayonetta isn't a female power fantasy, she's a male sexual fantasy who just so happens to have points in common with a female power fantasy.

I am just curious, how do you reconcile your claim that Bayonetta is not a female power fantasy but instead a male sexual fantasy with the fact that Bayonetta was designed by a woman? And also the fact that many women have claimed that Bayonetta is a female power fantasy, including in this very thread (see post by Dragonbums for an example) and by many women around the internet?

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Bayonetta is not a universal female power fantasy or is even a relatively niche female power fantasy?

 

[Malkav]

Personally, I never found Bayonetta attractive, and as many hinted at, they were probably trying to make her ludicrous and shameless like that.
First off, I liked Bayonetta. It was a fun game and a fun character. Taking her as an insult to women is, in my mind, as ridiculous as painting her up as some glancing star among strong female protagonists. You can't take her serious either way, which is part of why she's awesome.


By this logic, any bdsm dominatrix, most Mary Sues and even Bella fucking Swan (when she is vamped) is a feminist's wet dream... that sounded wrong. ANYONE can write a female kicking ass, and looking sexy while kicking said ass. That's pseudo-empowerment used by men as an excuse to fap to hot girls saying they did feminism a favor.

A strong female protagonist is someone you can see as a role model for real world problems. Someone who DOES get stumped, faces problems too high for her, eventually solves them or at least copes with them using their smarts, their personal strength of character, admits their mistakes and grows emotionally, who proves independence, whose gender might not even mean much, and... STOP YAWNING! They CAN be good looking and slutty, it's a matter of how it's presented and why. Bayonetta seriously doesn't fit in that category.

But right. Bayonetta wasn't taken seriously, and no offense OP, but you probably shouldn't either. She's awesome, but... not like that.

 

[EternallyBored]

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

I have to agree with this.

I'm quite the rampant feminist, yet Bayonetta doesn't bother me much. And that's because everything about her says "I'm a sexist character and I'm very well aware of it!". And when the character gleefully admits to being sexist, what's the reason to get angry?

I agree with the points brought: she's a confident character, she's in control, she isn't afraid of her sexuality, she's strong, she doesn't need male leads... all extremely good qualities.
But all this in bathed in a strong sexism coat. Because if she REALLY was completely in control and strong and etc. etc. she might as well scare off some players.
"I'm a strong character, I beat up everyone, I don't need no man for my confidence..... but here's some sexy poses for you, player".

I've always taken her as a character who probably is an actual Domme as opposed to how videogames usually just used BSDM design elements to make their villainous femmes have a kink in their sexiness. Everything she does is for herself, not for a leering audience. I think this is why the creator got upset at all the hentai fanart. The essence of Bayonetta is dominance, control, and most hentai art treats its women as submissive or straight out victims.

She's a positive character to me, but I can see why people would disagree.

I think that's part of the problem some people have with her, she looks like she's in control and doing everything for herself, but the leering camera and posing makes it seem like she's doing it for the audience, if the creator intended it the way you say, the actual gameplay makes it kind of confusing.

Especially the camera angles and posing, she's not doing it for the angels, half the time they aren't looking at her or are already dead, so she's obviously posing for the camera, which gets interpreted as her being sexy for the audience rather than herself or because she wants to.

There's kind of a divide between gameplay and story in this sense, in cutscenes when she's interacting with Jeanne, Rodin, Enzo, or Luka her sexiness interacts with them and she does it seemingly more for herself, although the camera still loves ass and cleavage out the wazoo. Gameplay Bayonetta is posing pretty much just for the camera, and it makes it look more like straight fanservice than an integral part of her character.

In the end, I tend to give Bayonetta a pass, I don't fully agree with MovieBob that she's this awesome sexually aggressive character, some of her scenes still seem to pander entirely to the audience rather than for her own sake. On the other hand, I don't think she's a bad character, or really sexist or terrible, she's a confident fanservice character done right. She's still there to titillate the audience, but she has character linked to and other than simple titillation so, I feel like she's a good example of how a fanservicey character can still be a decent character in and of themselves.

At best, she's a decent character who doesn't quite nail a female power fantasy, but she blends fanservice and actual character into an overall entertaining package so I still enjoy the game and her character in general, not perfect, but if you're going to play up a character's sexuality you might as well have fun with it, right?

 

[DrOswald]

Here's how you can quickly tell if a character if sexist: imagine your daughter or your mother being that character.
The hyper-sexually active Kinzie wouldn't make you feel embarassed if she was your child or mom. But Bayonetta most certainly would.

Does the opposite also apply? if a male character would be embarrassing as a father or son would that make them a sexist male character? Because I can tell you right now I would be hella embarrassed by my father if he was James Bond. The sexual activities he gets up to would be embarrassing to most people.

But that doesn't mean that what he is doing is immoral or wrong.

And the fact that a person would be embarrassed by the character is itself possibly a symptom of sexism. Consider the idea purposed by many sexist bastards out there that "a master key opens many locks but a lock opened by many keys is a shitty lock." A sexist father might be proud of his son's many conquests but horrified and embarrassed that his daughter has been with more than one man.

Finally, there is one aspect of your comment that I would like some clarification on. In your words, Kinzie is the sex positive character and Bayonetta is not because "Kinzie doesn't dresses provocatively, she doesn't act or talk sexy all of the time, basically she doesn't act like a sl*t the way Bayonetta does all of the time."

So, according to you, Bayonetta is a sexist character because she looks and acts like a slut most of the time. Is this a fair summary of what you were expressing?

 

[white_wolf]

Look wise no I have no desire to play as her. I did try playing Blood Rayne but her same sexy demur and her porn like moaning really just made me quit it was obviously a mans fantasy girl.

But at the same time we don't need a standard fem model all types should be used positive, sexy, troubled, normal, combine or mix we need all types in the gaming world a positive fem hero for me would be Nillan, Faith, or Jodie Holmes and of course Ripley though her games have her as a silent hero I'm talking about her in Alien - 2 are her best for me. But like I said we need variety the game industry needs to stop making all males a cookie cutter mold (tall, dark hair, troubled past) and they shouldn't start trying to make fem heros into cookie molds the male is stagnating the industry's creativity while the female shouldn't be used in that way to exasperate the problem heros all need to be unique to their games in look, dress, personalities, and the games own situations.

 

[Voulan]

Even though I'm usually one to denounce overly sexualized females in gaming in favour of more realistic characters, I've never had a problem with Bayonetta. She's deliberately designed to be sexy, but sex in this case is actually her power and where her strength comes from. It reaches the point of campy parody, or even makes her intimidating. But in this case, being sexy is her actual character.

The issue I usually have with sexy women in games is where there's no real context for it at all. For example, if all the men in a game are dressed sensibly, but then the women are not; or if in a combat situation they're dressed completely impractically. The worst kind is where the female character seems almost afraid of sex or is disinterested in sex, but is dressed skimpily for no obvious reason.

But with Bayonetta, sex is a part of her world - it's quite open about it. And she makes it quite clear that she enjoys sex and likes being sexy. The fact that it's done in humour helps quite a lot here too. I think the fact that the game is very self-aware of her sexiness makes it much easier to embrace. Not only that, but sex is quite literally how she fights and is strong, but it's also not the only aspect to her character.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

There is always something sexist about female characters? Well according to most critics and fans there's always something shitty about video games. That's because everyone has their own opinion and people will never speak in unison over something. There is always going to be at least one person who isn't pleased. I don't see why that's getting so worked up over.

 

[verdant monkai]

I honestly dont care whether she's positive with regards to a feminists point of view. She just happens to be my favourite videogames female protagonist.

Bayonetta may be sexualised but she also happens to be awesome. She defeated the GOD of her universe for crying out loud.

To be honest most male leads are very attractive as well. And if Bayonetta was ugly I dont think that would improve her as a character at all. Sure some may say wow isnt it amazing this fantastic pig ugly woman is doing all this cool stuff. But half of her charm lies in her being a fem-fatale. She is sexy, cool and is up for a laugh and in my opinion that makes her the best woman in video games I have played as.

Is she positive?

Yes I think so. She is probably the coolest woman in video games I can think of. Alex Vance and Elizabeth can take a hike, as they are only famous for being sensible and not sexualised. Bayonetta beat up God and is sexualised dumb and utterly brilliant.

Bayonetta is awesome.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

There is always something sexist about female characters? Well according to most critics and fans there's always something shitty about video games. That's because everyone has their own opinion and people will never speak in unison over something. There is always going to be at least one person who isn't pleased. I don't see why that's getting so worked up over.

Having to hear about how the west doesn't make any female characters, and east being a bunch of sexist fucktards means that despite having abundance of female characters means that they don't count. I swear one of the main reason why we don't see that much female characters in the west is because their existence is a controversy in itself. By existing female characters are sexist against women, when they don't exist they are sexist against women. No matter what you do you lose, which is why I am worked up.

I can't keep on relying on the east or RPG's to get some titties in videogames, I just can't. Because the eastern games are becoming more niche in the west, and sometimes they become censored in the west, and I'm picky when it comes to RPG's, good gameplay and/or a decent character creator is a must and have hot pair of titties. Most of my purchase in gaming is because of that. I bought games and looked forward to games just for the titties alone.

Their existence is a controversy in of itself? I don't see it. In fact, I think that 2013 was a pretty damn good year for women in video games with Bioshock Infinite, Last of Us, Remember Me, and Walking Dead Season 2. They've gotten some criticisms, but overall they're getting thumbs up, because that is what always happens. Yeah, people are always going to complain about everything. Every single time a popular game comes out, there's going to be a thread talking about how they don't see the appeal. And just because one person talks about how they don't like one female character in a game, doesn't mean that every single person ever hates it. When it comes to criticism, you need to learn what is worth listening to and what isn't. Just about everyone loved The Last of Us but one single review called it sexist? So what?

There's always going to be tits in video games, I don't see games like Soul Caliber V going anywhere anytime soon. The problem is that people suck so much at making female characters, that people get pissed when we have ANOTHER game that messes it up, because frankly it's rare to get good female characters in games. You're tired of people calling games sexist? I'm tired of people getting all over Halo, Destiny and Titanfall, but people will criticize what they don't like. that's the way things work and its how they always will.

 

[SAMAS]

Personally, I prefer both.

But that's even rarer.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I mean, is Bayonetta a good rolemodel to the girlfriend when the boyfriend demands she stops acting and dressing like Bayonetta now that they hooked up because she had Bayonetta as a rolemodel? How good the relationship isn't the question, but rather the suitability of Bayonetta as a rolemodel to each of them.

Yes. And she'd be a good role model to the boyfriend as well, though the scenario makes it sound like he wouldn't get the hint.

It's not like self-confident sexy flirtatiousness is incompatible with monogamy.

Like I said the quality of the relationship is not in queston.

The point is that the opinion can change when the link to the person changes.

Princess Peach in Super Princess Peach is more positive for female protagonists than Bayonetta.

In fact, I'll go as far as say Heather Mason from Silent Hill 3 is more positive.

I don't see how that's a stretch. I usually don't give Silent Hill 3 that much thought because i prefer SH2 but it would never occur to me that Heather was a bad protagonist. On that matter i think she's actually a pretty great one.

I'm kinda on the fence about my opinion. She won't be ideal for everyone, but she will be for some, that's for sure. If a person says yes, or no, I'd respect it.

Still, I gotta pose the question. If you were related to Bayonetta, if she were your daughter, sister, or mother, how would you feel? I think that'd answer the question, there.

Heck, if she were your significant other, how you feel about that kinda says something.

I don't think that that question is really applicable to any of us seeing how Bayonettas world and this one are too different which would put it in a significantly different context.

Or in other words: If my daughter, sister, mother or girlfriend regularly killed archangels, could summon demons at will and would be able to use a large variety of supernatural weapons i would never even dare to try to tell her how to act in public.

That kinda kills the question as a whole then as it's impossible to kill archangels, and such. I take the question towards acting like her in terms of dress code ad personality.

 

[iasi94]

also she doesn't seem too far out of proportion when you stack her up against a real flesh and blood female human animal

Ok, maybe i'm damaged because i once had aspirations of becoming a character artist... but sorry, what? Her proportions are ridiculous. If you think that's how a real woman looks, boy are you going to be disappointed when you get one in the bedroom

Her body is very elongated, especially the arms and legs. Her head is also tiny for the body. Looks nice, but hardly realistic. At all. I'm pretty sure she stretches beyond the already exaggerated "heroic" type proportions we are more accustomed to seeing in western games.

Yeah, and seeing the nude texture image that a friend showed me, I realized that she looks really freaky. The abnormal huge hips and her tiny head look so strange. Not sexy at all, at least for me. But I agree with some people here, that it's her over the top personality and the context of the game that make her a memorable character.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

I mean, is Bayonetta a good rolemodel to the girlfriend when the boyfriend demands she stops acting and dressing like Bayonetta now that they hooked up because she had Bayonetta as a rolemodel? How good the relationship isn't the question, but rather the suitability of Bayonetta as a rolemodel to each of them.

Yes. And she'd be a good role model to the boyfriend as well, though the scenario makes it sound like he wouldn't get the hint.

It's not like self-confident sexy flirtatiousness is incompatible with monogamy.

Like I said the quality of the relationship is not in queston.

The point is that the opinion can change when the link to the person changes.

Princess Peach in Super Princess Peach is more positive for female protagonists than Bayonetta.

In fact, I'll go as far as say Heather Mason from Silent Hill 3 is more positive.

I don't see how that's a stretch. I usually don't give Silent Hill 3 that much thought because i prefer SH2 but it would never occur to me that Heather was a bad protagonist. On that matter i think she's actually a pretty great one.

I'm kinda on the fence about my opinion. She won't be ideal for everyone, but she will be for some, that's for sure. If a person says yes, or no, I'd respect it.

Still, I gotta pose the question. If you were related to Bayonetta, if she were your daughter, sister, or mother, how would you feel? I think that'd answer the question, there.

Heck, if she were your significant other, how you feel about that kinda says something.

I don't think that that question is really applicable to any of us seeing how Bayonettas world and this one are too different which would put it in a significantly different context.

Or in other words: If my daughter, sister, mother or girlfriend regularly killed archangels, could summon demons at will and would be able to use a large variety of supernatural weapons i would never even dare to try to tell her how to act in public.

That kinda kills the question as a whole then as it's impossible to kill archangels, and such. I take the question towards acting like her in terms of dress code ad personality.

I see nothing wrong with how she's dressed or acts. If my sister or girlfriend acted like, I wouldn't see a problem. My mother would be different however as even the idea of her dating would be awkward.

That said, the 'test' presented is a pretty dumb one. I mean by that logic, Princess Peach would be a glowing example of a well realized female character and champion of feminism as I'm sure the vast majority of guys would want the female presences in their lives waiting on them all the time.

 

[Maximum Bert]

meh depends on your point of view I suppose, personally I dont care either way and as what constitutes a positive example is different to many people.

As a character I dont like her much its just her design I wouldnt say I hate her either but she just does nothing for me and is not memorable in anyway and I found her one liners pretty poor a bit like Dantes after DMC1.

I do love the game though and as a character as a part of that game she works amazingly well I love the way she dodges and attacks it just looks so effortless and (puts 90s glasses on) cool!

Slightly OT but cant wait for Bayonetta 2.

 

[Savagezion]

She is a good sex positive female character probably according to the feminist view as a guess. Sex negative feminists probably see her as a bad female protagonist. Just a guess though, I am no feminist. For me, she is fine. Duke Nukem is fine too and I see Bayonetta as the female Duke Nukem as Drake is to Croft. Bayonetta just leans on DMC too for gameplay.

 

[chikusho]

Well.. no. It wouldn't. Alien is about the horror of rape, and it's deliberately targeted against the men.
If Ripley was a man he'd be dead in minutes.

In the original script, Ripley was supposed to be a male. Look it up. Which is why it still shows in how non-sexualized Ellen Ripley is.

Also, Alien is about universal rape (why do some people think rape = only a female issue?). Or are you telling me all the male guys who got face-raped by the aliens and who birthed the alien from their chest.... were supposed to be women?

In the original script _all characters_ were written as "men". They had male names but were written androgynously until the final rewrites before going into production. At this point Ripley got to be female, and they actually toughened up her character at this point as well.

Also, you seem to have missed the part where half of my post says that the rape is deliberately targeted against the men in the movie. Yet, you somehow make that into a female only issue in your response? Here are some quotes from O'bannon, one of the creators, for you:

Dan O'Bannon has argued that the [facehugger] scene is a metaphor for the male fear of penetration, and that the "oral invasion" of Kane by the facehugger functions as "payback" for the many horror films in which sexually vulnerable women are attacked by male monsters.

And on the level that was most important to the writers and director, it's about sex, and reproduction by non-consensual means. And it's about this happening to a man.

He notes how the film plays on men's fear and misunderstanding of pregnancy and childbirth ...

One thing that people are all disturbed about is sex... I said 'That's how I'm going to attack the audience; I'm going to attack them sexually. And I'm not going to go after the women in the audience, I'm going to attack the men. I am going to put in every image I can think of to make the men in the audience cross their legs. Homosexual oral rape, birth. The thing lays its eggs down your throat, the whole number.

So, no, Ripley could not have been a man in the context of what they were trying to create.