Do you think Bayonetta is a positive example of a female protagonist?

[CloudAtlas]

By the way, what do you think about Matoi Ryuko and Kiryuin Satsuki since those two are now part of this big "women should love their bodies thing" at least in theory seen here [http://i.imgur.com/DpG1VIk.jpg]? Is we giving Gainax too much credit or do they actually have soemthing?

I'm sorry but I don't know these characters. Or hardly any other anime character, for that matter, since I don't watch that stuff... anymore. So you cannot expect some deep discussion or anything here. But at first sight this link reads, despite some inner logic, I guess, like post rationalizing bullshit. You could probably make up stuff like that for just about any awful hypersexualized female character. And in fact people do that, all the time.

Anyway, if, as a writer, that's the best they can come up with to show an empowered female character... good night. The message for young girls is supposed to be that you should not feel ashamed of your body? And not, uhm, that the best way for women to gain power is to be so hot that men can't think straight in your presence and will do your every bidding?

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

By the way, what do you think about Matoi Ryuko and Kiryuin Satsuki since those two are now part of this big "women should love their bodies thing" at least in theory seen here [http://i.imgur.com/DpG1VIk.jpg]? Is we giving Gainax too much credit or do they actually have soemthing?

I'm sorry but I don't know these characters. Or hardly any other anime character, for that matter, since I don't watch that stuff... anymore. So you cannot expect some deep discussion or anything here. But at first sight this link reads, despite some inner logic, I guess, like post rationalizing bullshit. You could probably make up stuff like that for just about any awful hypersexualized female character. And in fact people do that, all the time.

Anyway, if, as a writer, that's the best they can come up with to show an empowered female character... good night. The message for young girls is supposed to be that you should not feel ashamed of your body? And not, uhm, that the best way for women to gain power is to be so hot that men can't think straight in your presence and will do your every bidding?

fair point, I guess Japan does have to make moves to resolve it's internal sexism but I would think that America has some sexism as well so something like Bayonetta should be something to like despite the skimpyness as she is in control pretty much

regardless, anime has gotten a bit worse, incest anime is on the rise and generally, an air of mediocrity has hung over even a lot of the big animation studios but I do hope it gets better

 

[CloudAtlas]

fair point, I guess Japan does have to make moves to resolve it's internal sexism but I would think that America has some sexism as well

Yes, the West has plenty of its own issues in this department, but we can be thankful that it isn't as bad as it is over there.

so something like Bayonetta should be something to like despite the skimpyness as she is in control pretty much

Well as I said I am rather indifferent here, I'm just saying that if someone calls her a positive model for a female protagonist he's not setting the bar very high.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

fair point, I guess Japan does have to make moves to resolve it's internal sexism but I would think that America has some sexism as well

Yes, the West has plenty of its own issues in this department, but we can be thankful that it isn't as bad as it is over there.

so something like Bayonetta should be something to like despite the skimpyness as she is in control pretty much

Well as I said I am rather indifferent here, I'm just saying that if someone calls her a positive model for a female protagonist he's not setting the bar very high.

again, fair points on both but one question, what female protagonist should we hold up because I don't think there are all that many to choose. regardless. yes Bayonetta may not be the best positive model but I honestly can't think of any female protagonist that is better.

 

[00slash00]

I wouldn't put her on the list of the worst or most offensive female characters, but I wouldn't call her a good one either. The focus, to me, seems more on her body than her character. That is pretty much a textbook example of objectification. On top of that, the more powerful her attack is, the more naked she becomes. I do, however, give her a small pass because I consider it more to be a mockery of the objectification of women in gaming. That said, just because you objectify a female character as a joke at the expense of horny male gamers, it doesn't negate the fact that you're objectifying a female character

 

[CloudAtlas]

again, fair points on both but one question, what female protagonist should we hold up because I don't think there are all that many to choose. regardless. yes Bayonetta may not be the best positive model but I honestly can't think of any female protagonist that is better.

No, there aren't many, that's true, and quite a few people are quite sad about this fact. From the top of the head I can only recall Lara Croft (since 2013 anyway), Remember Me's Nilin, Samus Aran (not in Other M), Commander Shepard (technically a variable-gender protagonist, but the female version kicks ass), but I'm sure there a couple more. And some more from (action-ish) movies, of course, like Ellen Ripley, Gravity's Sandra Bullock character, or Zero Dark Thirty's Jessica Chastain's character. Well you can probably tell that I generally prefer non-sexualized characters.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Bayonetta...a female character with a disproportionate and somewhat freakish body, overt sexualisation, a penchant for bizarre sadistic violence, no personality to speak of and whose clothes fall off at every opportunity.... Yes, she's absolutely a "positive example of a female protagonist", a perfect example of "strong, female character [http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2013/08/i-hate-strong-female-characters]" that all studios should try to emulate and which all female gamers are bound to relate to. Female characters with no personality, hyper-sexuality (even in the midst of violence) and whose clothes come off just by pushing a few buttons is precisely what the new console generation needs more of.

 

[cikame]

When you combine the pole dancing, latex style clothing, lolly pops, finishing moves on bondage machines and that incredible soundtrack, it's hard not to appreciate Bayonetta for the world it creates and its characters.
Whether we should be holding the morals of human society against Bayonetta i think is probably a silly thing to do, instead we should look at the people who made the game and the character. Platinum Games has proven themselves at making extremely good games, i can easily recommend Bayonetta as a great game and not one that needs to try and sell itself using sex appeal, if the work put into the game were of a lesser quality or intent it would be obvious, maybe on par with something like BMXXX or Rumble Roses.

She's not a shallow character, but i understand it would be hard for people to see past the initial impression she gives without playing through the whole game.

 

[Candidus]

I've skimmed the thread but I'm just going to respond straight to the OP. Let's see... Serious time.

I haven't played the game, but I perceive Bayonetta mainly as a sex-object. I haven't played Devil May Cry either, but between Bayonetta and DMC, I'd play Bayonetta because she's attractive.

Having said that, I'm fine with this. Fine with female characters as sex objects. Men and women objectify each-other in their minds, in their imaginations and sometimes in conversation, as well as in other media; it's natural, unstoppable and totally fine to do in moderation. Why not also in video-games?

So... I don't really have anything to say to the camp that believes sexualized, pandering representations of women need to stop altogether or change substantially.

But I do acknowledge that the sexualized, pandering representations are virtually a hegemony right now. I know it shuts about fifty percent of gamers out in the cold. I'd much prefer it if we could all have copious amounts of the female (and male) imagery and content that we want.

I think that'll be a long time coming though.

 

[StormDragonZ]

Princess Peach in Super Princess Peach is more positive for female protagonists than Bayonetta.

In fact, I'll go as far as say Heather Mason from Silent Hill 3 is more positive.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

MovieBob did a great piece some years back which kinda exemplifies my views on Bayonetta:


Basically, yes she's sexualized, but in a way that paints her as strong and individualistic as opposed to dependent on a man.

A lot of people seem to mistake women being sexy as being sexist, I'd argue the opposite. Having women being as sexually aggressive and domineering as men are normally painted as is a step forward for equality as opposed to a step back

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I'm kinda on the fence about my opinion. She won't be ideal for everyone, but she will be for some, that's for sure. If a person says yes, or no, I'd respect it.

Still, I gotta pose the question. If you were related to Bayonetta, if she were your daughter, sister, or mother, how would you feel? I think that'd answer the question, there.

Heck, if she were your significant other, how you feel about that kinda says something.

Still, the argument could be made that a role model is up to the specific person that will follow that role model. The opinions of others aren't the end all, or be all. I'd certainly agree the idea is valid. Rebel isn't in my name because it's a neat sounding word. <.<

She definitely has confidence which is a trait we all need. She has self confidence which is something we all need. She's willing to be herself, for better or worse which is not always the best route (coz you gotta conform sooner or later, or be profoundly lucky. *mumbles under my breath.*) but liking yourself, and knowing your own identity is a wonderful thing, provided you're willing to adjust to life, I guess.

I'm not even really going to complain about the fan service. She's written in a manner that she knows she has it, so she flaunts it of her own initiative as opposed to so many other characters that don't seem to acknowledge it. She connects with an aspect of her character that never really comes up with others in how they look.

All in all, she has a lot of positive qualities. She's not perfect, but who is?

 

[VanTesla]

Princess Peach in Super Princess Peach is more positive for female protagonists than Bayonetta.

In fact, I'll go as far as say Heather Mason from Silent Hill 3 is more positive.

I could argue the opposite with the list of things Bayonetta has shown in one game verse Peach's long career in Mario spin offs, but both are not something I would consider completely postive or negative characters.

Bayonetta is oversexualized, but not as big as many people think or make her out to be in comparison to other females in the same genre. She doesn't get kidnapped and need rescue from a man all the time, she doesn't have constent mood swings that somehow givs her powers, she has a ton of confidence, and doesn't let anyone try to control her or make her seem like she is less than someone else. The only negatives really you can say are that she has insanely long legs and neck that makes her look more wierd than sexy in my opinion and that her powers revolve around her hair and using them to the max makes her nude some times, but even when nude you don't actually see anything.

I would say the only other thing people can have a gripe against her is her personality is very open and can make many people feel uncomfortable since that is not potrayed much on the female characters and mostly on male characters. She does have many one liners and a decent few sexual innuendos, but is that really wrong/bad/sexist? All the innuendos and joke are made by her mostly and thy are barely teen rating if that.

I think many people that don't play the game fully or don't know about the charaters in question tend to always go for the extremes of said character and just visualize them as being worse or more then they actually are.

She is in no way a perfect character or one to be even worthy of such silly debates as if she is a good female character or bad female character, but trying to have it seem as she is some sexist symbol or the opposite and somehow a huge breakthrough in feminism is going beyond stupid. My apologies for the long winded post that will not change anyones mind or opinion and could have been better said by someone else in a more concise and short reply to the topic.

 

[KazeAizen]

Hi. I'm Psyche. How are you all doing? Me? Oh, i'm fine. I just had an interesting Discussion over in the Off Topic section but i thought it would be more appropriate to continue it here. So, anyways, in this Thread

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.839499-Who-is-Your-Waifu?page=3

I expressed my fondness for Bayonetta from the game of the same name. I argued that while she is sexualised to a degree that it's an integral part of her character and obviously designed to appeal to male gamers she manages to avoid the dreaded problem of objectification because her sexualised looks and demeanor are treated as a form of empowerment and she is generally shown to be incredibly capable and confident. However, Zira argued that the fact that she is inherently designed to be appealing to male gamers is a form of objectification in and on itself which is a prefectly valid point. So... who's side are you taking? Is Bayonetta a good female protagonist, able to stand on her own as a character or just a shallow way to pander to male gamers?

I actually think Bayonetta is an interesting mutation of female protagonist. I think the thing that makes Bayonetta so special is that she is one of the few sex positive female protagonists. If you think about all the sexualized game girls out there they usually fall into either A) The young school type or the B) Ice Queen type. I'm talking those that are explicitly or overtly sexualized like the casts of various fighter games. Not ones that are like Alyx Vance from Half Life. There are more categories but if you think about it those are the broad two.

Now Bayonetta herself isn't in either. She's no ice queen, she constantly flirts and messes with Kyo or Ceshire as she calls him. She's also no innocent school girl as her looks and demeanor imply that she has probably had and definitely wants more sex. She is rarely out of control of the situation. When she fights the four big angels she's cocky as all get out and when the battle is done its not like "That one was tough. The next one is going to suck." Its more like "Well now that that bug is squashed where do I go now?" The only time she ever loses control of the situation is in the final act and that is less of a de powering women thing and more of a typical game trope. Interestingly enough its not a man who saves her but another woman. The women in this game control all the real power.

While she is definitely built to appeal to male gamers I do think they were trying to break the mold of sexualized females by intentionally or not making the first notable sex positive female protagonist in games. She still has her likes and dislikes, her personality traits, and emotions, her quirks and such. She has everything that a normal person has. She just also happens to really like dressed like a Sarah Palin/Catwoman combo.

 

[Tanis]

Yes.

She's strong, independent, and not afraid of her sexuality.

Many strong females tend to come across as 'nuns' and almost fearful of their sexuality, or go all 'belong in the kitchen' women whenever a male comes around.

I don't recall that ever happening in Bayonetta.

Instead of 'slut shaming' we should be fighting against the double standards that exist for males and females when it comes to sex.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Bayonetta is just deeply confusing to a lot of people earnestly trying to wrap their heads around modern feminism. She's a lot like a cam girl or a stripper. It's not okay to criticize such women for flaunting and profiting off of their sexuality because they are self-possessed, confident gals who are owning their own exploitation... but it's also perfectly okay to demonize the men who participate in this dynamic by objectifying the women who invite and profit from said objectification? Pretty difficult to reliably navigate all potential interactions while maintaining a viable, reproduce-able set of moral values.

 

[KazeAizen]

Princess Peach in Super Princess Peach is more positive for female protagonists than Bayonetta.

In fact, I'll go as far as say Heather Mason from Silent Hill 3 is more positive.

I could argue the opposite with the list of things Bayonetta has shown in one game verse Peach's long career in Mario spin offs, but both are not something I would consider completely postive or negative characters.

Bayonetta is oversexualized, but not as big as many people think or make her out to be in comparison to other females in the same genre. She doesn't get kidnapped and need rescue from a man all the time, she doesn't have constent mood swings that somehow givs her powers, she has a ton of confidence, and doesn't let anyone try to control her or make her seem like she is less than someone else. The only negatives really you can say are that she has insanely long legs and neck that makes her look more wierd than sexy in my opinion and that her powers revolve around her hair and using them to the max makes her nude some times, but even when nude you don't actually see anything.

I would say the only other thing people can have a gripe against her is her personality is very open and can make many people feel uncomfortable since that is not potrayed much on the female characters and mostly on male characters. She does have many one liners and a decent few sexual innuendos, but is that really wrong/bad/sexist? All the innuendos and joke are made by her mostly and thy are barely teen rating if that.

I think many people that don't play the game fully or don't know about the charaters in question tend to always go for the extremes of said character and just visualize them as being worse or more then they actually are.

She is in no way a perfect character or one to be even worthy of such silly debates as if she is a good female character or bad female character, but trying to have it seem as she is some sexist symbol or the opposite and somehow a huge breakthrough in feminism is going beyond stupid. My apologies for the long winded post that will not change anyones mind or opinion and could have been better said by someone else in a more concise and short reply to the topic.

I think moviebob put it best in one of his videos as the gameoverthinker. He did a big piece on Bayonetta's character and frankly I agree almost 100% with him on his analysis. I think the big shocker with her is that she is one of the very few gaming females that are sexually aggressive. I don't think it'd be an over statement to say she is actually a feminist land mark in gaming. Proud of her sexuality, constantly making the men look like idiots, only needing to be saved once and even then by another female. She's one of the few sex positive females in gaming if not the only one. Even if it is all just by flook I'd prefer a progressive accident than intentional regression you know.

 

[VanTesla]

Princess Peach in Super Princess Peach is more positive for female protagonists than Bayonetta.

In fact, I'll go as far as say Heather Mason from Silent Hill 3 is more positive.

I could argue the opposite with the list of things Bayonetta has shown in one game verse Peach's long career in Mario spin offs, but both are not something I would consider completely postive or negative characters.

Bayonetta is oversexualized, but not as big as many people think or make her out to be in comparison to other females in the same genre. She doesn't get kidnapped and need rescue from a man all the time, she doesn't have constent mood swings that somehow givs her powers, she has a ton of confidence, and doesn't let anyone try to control her or make her seem like she is less than someone else. The only negatives really you can say are that she has insanely long legs and neck that makes her look more wierd than sexy in my opinion and that her powers revolve around her hair and using them to the max makes her nude some times, but even when nude you don't actually see anything.

I would say the only other thing people can have a gripe against her is her personality is very open and can make many people feel uncomfortable since that is not potrayed much on the female characters and mostly on male characters. She does have many one liners and a decent few sexual innuendos, but is that really wrong/bad/sexist? All the innuendos and joke are made by her mostly and thy are barely teen rating if that.

I think many people that don't play the game fully or don't know about the charaters in question tend to always go for the extremes of said character and just visualize them as being worse or more then they actually are.

She is in no way a perfect character or one to be even worthy of such silly debates as if she is a good female character or bad female character, but trying to have it seem as she is some sexist symbol or the opposite and somehow a huge breakthrough in feminism is going beyond stupid. My apologies for the long winded post that will not change anyones mind or opinion and could have been better said by someone else in a more concise and short reply to the topic.

I think moviebob put it best in one of his videos as the gameoverthinker. He did a big piece on Bayonetta's character and frankly I agree almost 100% with him on his analysis. I think the big shocker with her is that she is one of the very few gaming females that are sexually aggressive. I don't think it'd be an over statement to say she is actually a feminist land mark in gaming. Proud of her sexuality, constantly making the men look like idiots, only needing to be saved once and even then by another female. She's one of the few sex positive females in gaming if not the only one. Even if it is all just by flook I'd prefer a progressive accident than intentional regression you know.

I am more on your side about her, but I am betting most feminist likely don't have the same view/opinion on her as you or me from what I have read and seen. I chalk it up though for the fact is most that discuss about her haven't played the game fully or just pick up on things they don't like about her right away and then reinforce the stance with other like minded views as every other human does. Honestly I am just being pesimistic on thinking most are against it without knowing it to be 100% true, but with most controversal things or created controversies going against it be it good or bad I see people that are not in the informed mostly go straight to the worse possibility. Makes me kinda sad that humanity always seem to go by the worse case on things before actually proving it to be true or false. I am including my self of course since I view us as being such. The best we can do is learn from our ignorance and keep an open mind or at leat try.

 

[SAMAS]

Still, I gotta pose the question. If you were related to Bayonetta, if she were your daughter, sister, or mother, how would you feel? I think that'd answer the question, there.

That question is kinda loaded, given that most people try not to think about their family member's sex lives at all.

But on that note, I have a younger sister who sometimes wears things I would consider sexy on a woman I'm not related to, and I don't really care.

Sexiness in fictional characters is a thing. I've come to terms with that a long time ago. I don't mind if a character, male or female, is designed to be nice to look at by the opposite sex. Hell, I admit I can even appreciate it in the case of female characters, so as far as I'm concerned what's good for the Gander is good for the Goose.

I don't even mind a character being absurdly sexy. What gets my goat is when said characters are dressed in absurdly skimpy outfits that seem to be designed by what someone thinks other people find sexy. I think an excellent case in point is Ivy from the Soul Calibur series. I find it kinda annoying the way they increase her bust size while shrinking her primary outfit every iteration of the series (On the other hand, I usually love her secondary outfit, and almost always consider it sexier than the Incredible Shrinking Battle Bikini).