Do you think Bayonetta is a positive example of a female protagonist?

[chikusho]

Actually, by reading what you've quoted it becomes all the more obvious that Ripley was intended to be a man.

What with how the entire movie is apparently about attacking men's fears, about bad things happening to a man, about male homosexuality, about men's fears of pregnancy, about wanting to shock the males in the audience.

But nevermind. I know the internet well, and I know I am not going to change your mind regardless.

... Yeah.. In a movie about men being violently attacked with sexual overtones, they only show men being violently attacked with sexual overtones. The only one we don't see this happen to is the female protagonist. The other female character dies off-screen. How is this not obviously thematically coherent?

But yeah, you do have a point with that last sentence.

 

[Savagezion]

Bayonetta is a sexist character because she's a concoction of male fantasies (as the REAL author of the character, who is a man, admitted himself). Do I even need to explain that a female character who constantly strikes up stripper poses, moans, stereotypes every S/M porn movie cliché ever, speaks constantly in innuendo, and gets entirely naked when she fights.... is not a character made for women and is not an example of feminism? Seriously. Do I REALLY need to point that out?

That is a part of some real women's sexual identity and even men too on this planet. It is a turn off to many women and men alike as well. However, just because you may see it as a turn off doesn't mean it is sexist and anyone who finds it a turn on is a pig. What makes your turn ons and offs the right ones? It is a fantasy of some men that is shared by some women. The Dominatrix is a female power fantasy. That's the fantasy. That's the only appeal to it.It may be of a sexual nature, but it is a female power fantasy.

I will admit that the nature of Bayonetta caters to the male attraction towards it more than the power fantasy in its craptastic story though. Which is what I think you are mostly attacking about it. Now, I don't have a problem with its story so much as every character is 1 dimensional. (or 2 dimensional, you know what I mean.) Even Bayonetta is a pretty tunneled personality as you are trying to point out. You never see an expansion of any of the characters beyond your first impressions when it comes to the story. Shallow is the word I am looking for here. The entirety of the game's story is shallow. Not every story has to be deep though. Again, I point at Duke Nukem and throw in the movie Grease. Many of us have shallow stories we love.

My point is though that a woman with a Dominatrix fantasy is no worse than a woman with a candlelight and Kenny G fantasy. Where you fall on the spectrum determines your interest in the title. Now, I have never been with a woman into domination but I would imagine that isn't the only way they envision the act. I am sure they want shower quickies and more sensual evenings too sometimes. It's not like you are only allowed one fantasy. This game markets that fantasy. Her marketing has a male slant over the female slant, maybe. I would even agree to grounds where that is sexist. But the character herself is not sexist.

So, here is the problem I have with Bayonetta: I have absolutely no problem with her, and to be honest I quite like the character.
But then some guys come and say "Bayonetta is a feminist character, she's what a female power fantasy is like, and I know this woman who said she likes her so I am right".

I don't have any problem with Bayonetta.... but I have a huge problem with guys who try to babble about "pro-sex feminist" and "female power fantasy" instead of openly admitting "she's a character made entirely of male fantasies, her design is great and she's pretty awesome".

I wouldn't say she is made entirely of male fantasies. If so much as one woman out there enjoys Bayonetta as a power fantasy, it would be sexist to not allow her that privilege because Bayonetta isn't a 'proper' character. Many male characters aren't 'proper' characters. Everyone loves Chell and Freeman despite being empty husks. Those aren't good characters they are non-characters. People like Freeman because they like his glasses or something. I don't know. Chell gets a lot of credit as a positive female character but all they did was have her not have a personality at all. Not even a shallow one. Lt. Data from Star Trek has more personality than those two.

Bayonetta is a weak character. The marketing around her can be argued sexist but that's a slippery slope. Flexibility can be seen as a power fantasy. I love that Brazilian style martial art that is rhythmic. I forget the name, but think

Eddie from Tekken.

Dante is female fan service which is a start. There really is a lot of other options on the board than attacking a game as shallow as Bayonetta. How well do you think a She-Ra game would do? I think it would do well but He-Man was my favorite as a kid. Heavenly Sword was pretty awesome for a launch title. Imagine if it had more time and an IP behind it already. I bet She-Ra would do alright if they spent some money on it. Have you be able to play as either He-Man or She-Ra. Have a couple action sequences where you get to hotswap between them. Have it use an interface God of War / Darksiders style. Cell Shading may help its aesthetics. Bah, He-man and SHe-Ra are locked in the cellar for now I bet. I need to go look info on the movie that was suppose to get made. Their last relaunch went poor.

I don't know, I am tired and rambling now.

 

[chikusho]

... Yeah.. In a movie about men being violently attacked with sexual overtones, they only show men being violently attacked with sexual overtones. The only one we don't see this happen to is the female protagonist.

Oh, you mean the female protagonist who gets it the worst by being pregnant with the queen?

1. That doesn't happen in Alien.
2. At that point in the series, from Aliens and onward, the movies take a turn towards exploring themes of motherhood.

The other female character dies off-screen.

Because she dies off screen, it means Alien is suddenly a movie about hating males in which no female characters die or suffer?

I hope you can see you're really grasping at straws to prove your point here. Better to let it go, because it seems to me as if you're thinking "this movie has a female protagonist, and who is sometimes the only survivor, what is this heresy? It HAS to be a movie about man-hating!!". Or maybe not, and since this thread is about sexism I am starting to see sexism everywhere.

Or, you can keep thinking Alien is about about male-hating in which female characters don't really get hurt or die. Doesn't really matter to me, to be honest.

I have literally no idea where you got "male-hating" from. That's something you made up just now.

What I said, with quotes from the creator backing me up, is that they are using violent rape analogies directed specifically towards men. That they are using confusion, fear and horror surrounding sex, pregnancy, and rape towards men for dramatic and disturbing effect.

One thing, which is an obvious artistic choice they have made to emphasize this point, is that the graphic violence they subject their characters to is exclusively the men.

Female characters obviously suffer (Ripley) and die (Lambert), but if Ripley was a man he'd have to be exposed to this violence in a more physical way for the movie to be thematically consistent.

Now, back on the real topic: Bayonetta.

All I have to say it, guys, just enjoy the sexy dom chick striking poses for your pleasure and revel in the fact that it manages to do it with much more style than many other games about sexy chicks.

That's the thing though. Bayonetta doesn't strike poses for "your" pleasure. She strikes poses for her own pleasure. Context matters.

 

[Naqel]

Bayonetta is the kind of female character we should have more of.

The fact that she's a woman isn't a neutral trait, or an obstacle she works through, it's integral to her character and a tool in her arsenal.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Everyone says it's satire, and while that might be true, I suspect it's also a case of having your cake and eating it too.

I have to agree with this.

I'm quite the rampant feminist, yet Bayonetta doesn't bother me much. And that's because everything about her says "I'm a sexist character and I'm very well aware of it!". And when the character gleefully admits to being sexist, what's the reason to get angry?

I agree with the points brought: she's a confident character, she's in control, she isn't afraid of her sexuality, she's strong, she doesn't need male leads... all extremely good qualities.
But all this in bathed in a strong sexism coat. Because if she REALLY was completely in control and strong and etc. etc. she might as well scare off some players.
"I'm a strong character, I beat up everyone, I don't need no man for my confidence..... but here's some sexy poses for you, player".

She can be kind of intimidating fantasy wise in the same way that dante might be to another woman. Like I could feasibly concoct a situation in my head where alexis texas through some weird fetish she has for bearded slackers has a thing for me and is out on a date with me. My imagination lacks the ability to concoct a reason why bayonetta would find me worthy of even a passing consideration.

same with dante of course to other women.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Let's drop the Alien discussion, as it seems we have different views on that movie. We can both agree it was a darn good and entertaining movie tho.

That's the thing though. Bayonetta doesn't strike poses for "your" pleasure. She strikes poses for her own pleasure. Context matters.

I've already mentioned that there is no such thing as striking poses for your own pleasure. Since striking up sexy poses requires an audience.

No sane person would walk seductively, pole-dance and sensually lick lollypops if she was alone and there wasn't someone staring at her.

Lots of people enjoy doing such things usually infront of a mirror. are they less valid somehow?

 

[Gearhead mk2]

Speaking as someone who generally finds sex and the whole concept of "sex sells" disgusting, I actually really like Bayonetta. She's sexualised, but it's not for the audience's sake, she's like that because it's her own style and it's incorporated into every aspect of her character. Plus she's not really pandering to the audience, she's more sexually aggressive, and she goes so over-the-top with it that it becomes hilarious, cheesy-awesome fun. Characters like her or Morrigan are arguably sexualised characters done right, because it's a core part of them but it's not the only thing they have. As opposed to someone like Makoto, who's not meant to be a sexual character but still walks around in half a sports bra and two napkins clipped to a thong.

 

[chikusho]

That's the thing though. Bayonetta doesn't strike poses for "your" pleasure. She strikes poses for her own pleasure. Context matters.

I've already mentioned that there is no such thing as striking poses for your own pleasure. Since striking up sexy poses requires an audience.

No sane person would walk seductively, pole-dance and sensually lick lollypops if she was alone and there wasn't someone staring at her.[/quote]

I love the fact that you need a 1000 year old magic wielding witch, that can slow time and who fights enormous demons and angels with guns strapped to her feet, to motivate her actions by being a "sane person".

Also, not only can you walk seductively, pole-dance and sensually lick lollypops alone for your own pleasure, you can also do all of the aforementioned things with an audience for your own pleasure.

She's undressing herself and posing while mercilessly slaughtering angelic and demonic beings trying to murder her. She's obviously mocking them with her intimidating sexuality. She's fully aware of what she's doing and how absurd it is.
She also works as an antithesis to the the nun-like umbra witches from whence she came.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

I'm kinda on the fence about my opinion. She won't be ideal for everyone, but she will be for some, that's for sure. If a person says yes, or no, I'd respect it.

Still, I gotta pose the question. If you were related to Bayonetta, if she were your daughter, sister, or mother, how would you feel? I think that'd answer the question, there.

Heck, if she were your significant other, how you feel about that kinda says something.

I don't think that that question is really applicable to any of us seeing how Bayonettas world and this one are too different which would put it in a significantly different context.

Or in other words: If my daughter, sister, mother or girlfriend regularly killed archangels, could summon demons at will and would be able to use a large variety of supernatural weapons i would never even dare to try to tell her how to act in public.

That kinda kills the question as a whole then as it's impossible to kill archangels, and such. I take the question towards acting like her in terms of dress code ad personality.

In that sense... huh, still a difficult question. If it was an expression of her confidence as it is with Bayonetta i would accept it, the issue is that on many occasions women act overly sexual to compensate for their lack of confidence. You know, in the same way that insecure man often try to act stereotypically macho. But if that's not the case i'd respect that decision.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Bayonetta is the kind of female character we should have more of.

The fact that she's a woman isn't a neutral trait, or an obstacle she works through, it's integral to her character and a tool in her arsenal.

Ngggh!! I disagree so much with this I don't even have words!!

The very concept that being a woman is "a tool in her arsenal" because she can use her sexuality!!

Fine, but then why is it nobody tells men that being a male is "a tool in his arsenal" because he can use his sexuality as a weapon?

This is, to me, the typical male point of view: female sexuality is a weapon because I'm a male and I'm scared of the power women can have on my mind by making me horny.

I've already brought a couple positive examples of female characters. Ripley from Alien. Squirrel Girl from Marvel comics.

I will also definitely add Elena from Uncharted: a female character done very right.

Well men do do that but on average a males sexuality is considered cheaper than a womans or of less value. One need only look at the value of 2 ovaries vs a mans sperm to see that this view is rooted in absolute reality. Another example would be how some women will act as though simply being present is enough because "she has the pussy and you should be grateful." and will just lay there and not do much. And yes that last one is anecdotal I see and hear about it all the time.

 

[chikusho]

The very concept that being a woman is "a tool in her arsenal" because she can use her sexuality!!

Fine, but then why is it nobody tells men that being a male is "a tool in his arsenal" because he can use his sexuality as a weapon?

This is, to me, the typical male point of view: female sexuality is a weapon because I'm a male and I'm scared of the power women can have on my mind by making me horny.

Have you ever heard of James Bond? He's the perfect example of a male character using his sexuality as a "tool in [his] arsenal". Seducing the enemy to get an advantage by having her on his side. This happens in all types of media. You don't hear about it because nobody makes a big deal about it, because being desirable is, in itself, desirable.

Also, all men are using the fact that they are male, because by being men they are naturally seen as more intelligent, capable and skilled than women.

It all boils down to that characters need to work with what they've got, given the situation.

 

[Dragonbums]

I apologize for taking so long to reply back to you. However I only had the time now to really sit down and type this through (and not argue like a clown on Nintendo news threads.)

I disagree with this, because this seems to imply that a female's power fantasy is to use sex to her advantage.

I'm a woman and while videogames hardly if never offer me a power fantasy unless they're rpg in which you craft your protagonist, below I will show you a couple examples of what is a female power fantasy for me.

I agree. There is more to power fantasy for women than sex. However this is sexual empowerment and positivity. One of the many aspects of power fantasy. Bayonetta represents that particular set of power fantasy. For others that is off putting. And there is nothing wrong with that.
However keep in mind that the reason why I- as a feminist myself- see Bayonetta as a female empowerment characters is because her sex appeal is one of her traits. Not her defining characteristic. As someone stated earlier in this thread Bayonetta herself is a parody of male gaze sexualsation. On top of that the male character she interacts with on a constant basis was never aroused by her looks. In fact- often times he is either completely indifferent to her, shows random bouts of disdain for her (until he finds out the truth to something really personal to him) to being legitimately intimidated by her due to her powers, her dominating nature, and the shit he gets wrapped up in every time she is so much as 2 feet away from him.

She is a sex positive female empowerment because she is far from afraid of sex, admits to liking it, and dresses in such a way that not only reflects her personality, but her sex lax ways. However it is very clear from the very start that her adversaries don't even dare to disrespect her because of that. They know full damn well that the moment they try to pull any funny business, they'll be finding themselves dead for good.

Squirrel Girl: she single-handedly defeated the greatest superpowered villains of the Marvel universe, despite not having any superpowers besides eating nuts and climbing trees.

Notice the important detail: she is cute.... she is NOT slutty.

Yet how much do Marvel go into HOW she managed to do that. I will admit it probably has a lot to do with the fact that she has a lot of brawn and used that to her utmost advantage.

As for the dress, women across the attire spectrum can still be criticized as sexist. At this point your issue with her attire and Bayonetta's could be called out as slut shaming.
The reason why we rag on women is skimpy clothing has less to do with the attire itself, and a lot more to do with how that kind of dress not only is inappropriate for the environment/occupation the woman is doing (especially if it's supposed to be grounded in some sort of logical reality, but their personalities (providing they even have one) does not reflect the dress at all.
This is an opposite for Bayonetta.

Ellen Ripley: a character who is a woman, but sexuality does not play any part in her awesomeness. "Alien" movies would have been exactly the same had Ripley been a male.
She's not bad-looking, but she's not some oversexualized Barbie girl.

But Bayonetta and Ripley are two different types of female empowerments. For one Ripley is actually grounded in fucking reality with sci-fi mixed in. She is also part of a pretty realistic military branch. Again, this ties in with the whole looks/dress matching environment/occupation.

Bayonetta is a dark witch nun, who fights angels in alternate planes of realities. She is somehow able to shoot guns from her heels, change into various animals, and the creatures she faces have human faces on surreal places. Her powers involve magical incarnations of high heel boots, fists, lip marks, and demons that can be summoned out of her hair.

Ripley on the other hand is a normal commander in charge of a normal unit in a normal military. As such, it would make sense to have her dress as realistically as possible given the circumstances. She wouldn't oversexualize herself because that is not within the character they gave Ripley.

It's not like I don't understand what your saying. I was in the forefront of people raging against the sexual redesign of Ashley in Mass Effect- a women who went from looking like a sci-fi Ripley commander, to a buxom high heeled space babe in Mass Effect 3.

All I'm saying is, I'm disgusted by the very notion that a character made specifically as a male S/M fantasy would be considered "an empowered female".

Bayonetta is exactly like this:

Bayonetta is an extreme parody of the femme fatale genre. You can see how over the top and stupid everything is in the literal 5 minutes in the intro of the game. If men get aroused by this fine. However for a lot of feminists (men and women included) this is far from lost on what P* was getting at with Bayonetta.

Her entire character design is to make fun of this. Her character in general is an extreme parody of those same females. Half the shit I see happen in this game is so fucking ridiculous that I'm honestly laughing a whole lot more than being even somewhat aroused. Yet along getting angry about it.

 

[Dragonbums]

No sane person would walk seductively, pole-dance and sensually lick lollypops if she was alone and there wasn't someone staring at her.

I'm sorry, but how can you possibly know that. Especially if this is something they do alone and with nobody watching. That's like saying people never dance unless there is someone watching them pull the moves.

The amount of things people do behind the doors and with nobody watching can surprise you.

 

[blackrave]

May I ask why does it matter?
If someone tells me that Kratos is actually power fantasy, I will call bullshit on that and still consider him insulting.
At the same time you can have full room of gender "specialists" who will claim that JC Denton is extremely demeaning character and I still would consider him a good character.
So why does it matters if someone says that Bayonetta is positive character or not?
If you personally find her insulting, fine. Also fine, if you think she is great example of female protagonist.
Or you can be like me and feel indifferent about her.

 

[Dragonbums]

Ugh, that's it. I'm outta here.

Everytime the same thing. I start thinking, aha, Bayonetta is a pretty cool character.

Then out the internet comments come...

"Bayonetta uses her arsenal of sexyness"

"Bayonetta is a sex-positive feminist character"

"Bayonetta is a female power fantasy"

"Bayonetta was actually made by a woman"



....And, suddenly, I start to dislike Bayonetta only because of all the males who can't just accept they like a character because she is completely designed about her sex appeal, and try to come up with all possible reasons because for some reason a character can't be a mere sexual fantasy AND be also a well-made character.

I'm sorry people, but I give up before I start to lose my patience on something so silly....

Except that I'm not a man I'm a woman. Not to mention that you are being pretty sexist yourself to assume only men view Bayonetta as a female power fantasy. This is also disregarding the explanations that there are many power fantasies for women. Sex positivity being one of them. Especially in the context of Bayonetta.