Zachary Amaranth said:
sumanoskae said:
Our very own Bob "MovieBob" Chipman once made an important distinction about Bayonetta; it has often been said that Bayonetta moves like a stripper, but it's more accurate to say that Bayonetta moves like a dancer. For, you see, a stripper dances for YOU, Bayonetta dances for the same reason she does everything; to have some fucking fun!
Lots of dancers dance of the audience, not for themselves. But that's not even the worst distinction. Bayo moves like a stripper because she's made to titillate. And as so many people have pointed out how self aware and "meta" she is, even the character is in on that.
Also, there's nothing wrong in itself with being a stripper or even acting like one. A woman's rights should include self-determination. There's nothing wrong with women being strippers or acting like them, up to including fictional ones in games. There's an issue though, in any media where women can generally only be sexual objects or plot points.
Say what you will regarding characters like Dante, Ryu Hyabusa and Bayonetta being simplistic, but their charisma cannot be denied.
Are we talking D&D's "Book of Erotic Fantasy" version of Charisma? Because it seems like her "charisma" comes from a couple of places.
I think a simple thought experiment should demonstrate her lack of charisma. Would the same people be inextricably drawn to her if she wasn't explicitly sexualised? I honestly doubt it. Dante doesn't need to be a sexy boy to have appeal to him. Can't speak to Ryu, though. I played about ten minutes of one of those games and the game didn't draw me, so I don't know about his "charisma." Not even sure he talked during the gameplay.
But since we're bringing up our own contributors, our own Jimothy Sterling once made an interesting distinction between men and women in games: there is no equivalent to Kane and Lynch or Michael and Trevor. Men can be ugly, middle aged, letting themselves go, shabby, and still be characters. Lead characters. Protagonists, even. Can you say the same for women? Would Bayo still be a main attraction if she was a slob, or battle scarred? Can you name any female protagonist that fits that bill?
Regarding your first point; I did not say there was anything wrong with being a stripper, I simply said the word does not describe Bayonetta. If your standards for defining an "Object" is "a character that is made to be appealing", you have a very limited scope of characters that don't fit that bill.
Further more, regarding the sexual aspect of the case; why is it worse to be a sexual object then, say, an object made to be despised and destroyed, like 90% of the enemies we fight in games. As you said, sexuality isn't a problem in and of itself, but it is so often out of the female characters control or is demonized because the person feeling it is a woman, these are the problems.
The issue of women being one-dimensional characters in games and other media, in my experience, is not limited to sexuality nor is the simple titillation aspect the biggest problem.
Let's look at a pair of examples:
Here we have "Generic Fighting Game B26", in this games, nearly every female character is dressed in a skimpy outfit and has little to no personality, however, every male character is also totally lacking in personality. In fact, none of the characters have ANY dimension; they are, as it were, objects. The difference is that the women are all supposed to be sexy. There might be a couple of guys who are attractive or don't wear shirts, but nobody has invented "Peck physics", so their sexual appeal, if any, was an afterthought.
So, should there be no attractive women in this game? I don't think that would solve anything. It seems to me the scales just need to be balanced. The real problem is that the game is clearly designed to appeal to person's who find women attractive, but makes little to no consideration for people who don't. So somebody invent Peck physics, assume that anybody could be playing your game, not just one demographic.
These characters aren't really examples of anything positive, but they don't seem negative to me either.
Now let's find another example; we'll just use any story with a typical romantic subplot. If you ask me, these are every bit as vapid as the example I stated above. Women are so often used, not just in games but in other forms of media, as nothing more than plot points and goals. Think about how many movies have main characters striving to get laid by a girl with no distinct character traits. Characters that exist solely to function as motivation for other characters, as if they have no desires of their own.
Take it a step further; there are plenty of women in the arts that are not sexualized, but serve no purpose other than to showcase how "Not sexist" the piece they appear in is. I cannot count the number anime I've seen that feature a badass action girl (Sometimes sexualized, sometimes not) whose only character trait is that she is not weak. She has no desires, no detail to her motivation, and no character arc of her own. It doesn't fucking matter how sexy she's supposed to be; she is already an object.
Although Bayonetta is sexualized, her sexuality is part of her character; it's an expression of her confidence and free spirit. Weather or not it's supposed to be titillating, it fits. Bayonetta's sexual nature is not portrayed negatively; she is in full control of it, and uses it for her own enjoyment.
For a character that moves like a stripper, look at Poison Ivy from the Arkham games. The distinction is that Ivy's sexualized nature is a tool; a force that is portrayed as destructive and deceptive. It is no clear weather or not Poison Ivy is actually interested in sex, she uses it for ulterior motives. Now, using sex as a tool is not a bad thing, but more often than not, in media it is portrayed as either a destructive tool or a weakness when it applies to women. Women are most often portrayed as having to resist their sexual urges because they are somehow inherently bad (This is usually never explained, just assumed), or portrayed as being sexual, but dangerous and morally questionable because of it.
It's pretty rare that you will find a Femme Fatal character that is portrayed as entirely morally upstanding, and it is even more rare that you find a female character that is often and openly sexual that isn't being judged for it.
I would contest that although there is no female Trevor there is also no female James Bond; a female character who is designed to be appealing, who displays traits that are meant to be envied or aspired to, who's traits include great sexual prowess and experience. When a woman is portrayed as having casual sex, it is often frowned upon within the media, where as when men have casual sex it is portrayed as a natural desire that therefore does not reflect badly on them, or as a mark of charisma or attractiveness.
Now onto your second point.
I'm pretty sure I already said that, yes, Bayonetta would still be an appealing character if she wasn't sexualized. She's powerful, confident and fun loving. Very similar to Dante, really. I don't think removing her sexuality would do her credit; it's a part of her character and it helps to accentuate her personality.
As a side note, I think if Trevor was a woman his character wouldn't have to change that much.
And let's not forget that Kane and Lynch are a very rare breed anyway, especially in games. They are (I hope) designed to be totally unappealing. But considering that you also play as them, you don't have the same comforting distance you would get from a movie like Wolf of Wallstreet or Natural Born Killers. A game's protagonist is usually who you're playing as, so main characters like Kane and Lynch are somewhat more challenging in the gaming medium.
Now as for the rarity of leading women who are designed to be ugly, I would agree. But I didn't comment on that problem in my post, and I don't think it directly relates to Bayonetta.
Yes, we do have a cultural stigma surrounding women when comes to attractiveness. I don't think Bayonetta solves that problem but I also don't think she contributes to it. Most women in games are designed to be attractive, often by force of habit. Consider how many women are made to be pretty for no reason; characters that could just as easily be totally average or even ugly, but are made attractive just because. Bayonetta does not fit that category; her attractiveness is calculated and worked into her character.
Bayonetta is sexy because it's appropriate and it's appealing to look at. Really very simple. Just because she doesn't subvert this particular trope doesn't make her a deficient character.
