DoA Dev Says Jiggle Physics Are Part of Japanese Culture

[Hagi]

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Well considering he takes his own sources as gospel and as soon as I present data to the contrary he dismisses out of hand. I get the feeling there is a deeper reason for that...

I also hate this point of view that women who complain about this stuff are obviously 'just insecure' I;m not insecure I have enough jiggle physics of my own thanks, what I would like is to play a decent fight game that doesn't make it's female characters have 'sex object' as their main feature.

Like Moviebob has said before in a visual medium a characters comportment and dress is the most revealing thing about their character. A lot of the time you can't even tell at a glance what a female character is about other than 'sexy' while you can look at Nathan Drake and say 'Okay he's a cocky indiana jones type' or look at Marcus Fenix and see he is a determined badass.

As I said, it's vital that there are alternatives that don't feature jiggle physics and video games do indeed seem severely lacking in that department.

And it's more than fair to heavily criticize games that don't feature well-rounded female characters. I just don't think that "giving people a bad self-image" is a valid criticism. Shallow, lazy and pandering character design on the other hand... You can criticize the fuck out of that and I'll happily join you.

Although I suppose games like this do feature very well-rounded female characters in a certain sense... Maybe they should be criticized for not having less well-rounded female characters?

Sometimes it's not just personality though because lets face it there isn't that much personality and backstory in fighting games anyway. It's how the character is 'portrayed'

If a female character is posing constantly and flashes her knickers when she kicks and doing everything to be titillating for a guy I would label that objectification.

It's almost how someone puts themselves across physcially.

A good way to describe would be how Superman can hide as Clark Kent. He doesn't just change his glasses he changes his entire comportment and appearance into that of a clumsy nerd. It's actually a very effective commentary on characterisation in a visual medium.

Oh, I wholly agree.

Yet I'd say that seeing how common those type of characters are they're a clear sign of shallow, lazy and pandering character design.

And, in the context of fighting games, a well-rounded character wouldn't necessarily mean a background story worthy of winning literary prices but rather a character who's portrayed as well... anything more than just "Oooh! Look at my knickers" or "Me smash!".

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

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It also makes them feel very good to think that men play no part in their wish to be attractive. This is false, but the wish to maintain the positive feelings they get from the deception is too strong to see through it.

Who is 'them' and 'they' you are talking about?

Heterosexual women. And men if you switch the genders.

 

[Hagi]

I think you, and others, are totally misunderstanding her.

Women (and men for that matter) dress attractively to make themselves feel good. This feeling good comes from others, including men, admiring and appreciating their looks.

Men are a means, not a goal, in this.

They do not dress attractively so that anyone else may feel good about looking at them. How others feel whilst appreciating them is irrelevant, as long as they're being appreciated.

Just examine the feeling you get yourself when you're dressed up in a fancy suit or any other clothing you think you look good in and someone else notices that.

We are misunderstanding her, because she sucks at expressing herself. What she means is: "If a woman dresses up, it doesn't mean she's doing it for a man or men". However what she says is: "Women never dress up for men".

Men may be a means, sometimes. Men may be a goal, sometimes, too.

Meh, it could easily be argued that even if a woman dresses up purely to attract a man she's still doing it for herself.

In fact I can't really think of any situation where dressing up wouldn't have the end-goal of making yourself feel better or at the very least less bad.

 

[Hagi]

Yeah but it;s not a conscious choice. We don't sit there and decide 'Oh I will wear this because some random man will like it'. -.-

OK, just to make sure: you firmly believe that women NEVER dress attractively to be attractive?

I think you, and others, are totally misunderstanding her.

Women (and men for that matter) dress attractively to make themselves feel good. This feeling good comes from others, including men, admiring and appreciating their looks.

Men are a means, not a goal, in this.

They do not dress attractively so that anyone else may feel good about looking at them. How others feel whilst appreciating them is irrelevant, as long as they're being appreciated.

Just examine the feeling you get yourself when you're dressed up in a fancy suit or any other clothing you think you look good in and someone else notices that.

It also makes them feel very good to think that men play no part in their wish to be attractive. This is false, but the wish to maintain the positive feelings they get from the deception is too strong to see through it.

I actually don't think they do.

It's not men that matter. It's peers, whether those are male or female doesn't matter that much.

And while certain people's opinions may carry more weight in this, it's not divided by gender. It's instead divided by how attractive you find them yourself.

The opinion of unknown people you don't find attractive matters little to none.
The opinion of known people you don't find attractive matters some.
The opinion of people you find attractive matters a lot.

Gender matters not beyond your sexual preference, and even there it's only part seeing as attractiveness is, obviously, not fully determined by gender.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Heterosexual women. And men if you switch the genders.

Thanks for the clarification. I must say, your original comment is sweeping and inaccurate. Men surely do not always play a part in women's choice to dress up. Some women dress up for a girl's night out, having dinner and watching movies together, without ever going out. But, I think that sometimes, yes, women deceive themselves. In general I think women are much more confident and self-aware for that though.

None of that is less speculative than my statement. Just because a girl is going to the movies with her female friends doesn't mean her choice of dress isn't influenced by sexual motives, which are built into her biology and encouraged by culture.

 

[Hagi]

Meh, it could easily be argued that even if a woman dresses up purely to attract a man she's still doing it for herself.

In fact I can't really think of any situation where dressing up wouldn't have the end-goal of making yourself feel better or at the very least less bad.

Kind of how you are trolling for your own amusement? Eh?

Yes, I disagree with you and as such I am without the shadow of a doubt trolling.

In fact, everyone in this thread who disagrees with you is just trolling you. We've got our own little Skype channel set up to coordinate our efforts in trolling you.

 

[Groenteman]

The 'sexist video games make men/boys treat women like objects!' argument very much reminds me of the 'violent video games make people into criminals!' argument.

I believe that one has been chewed up, spat out and chewed up some more plenty of times now. Apply arguments against the later to the first.


As for fighter games, from what I have its characters -not just the female ones- are shallow even by video game standards. Those games are heavily gameplay-centered, with the 'story' part just there to fill in the gaps between single player sequences. Its not a genre where you should expect deep, complex and sympethetic characters.
If the argument is the lack of a lack of jiggly physics and impractically skimpy outfits on female characters, I guess thats a fair point, though it seems a bit over the top to let it spoil a whole game for you.

Captcha: why oh why do I allways get you wrong...

 

[Hagi]

Meh, it could easily be argued that even if a woman dresses up purely to attract a man she's still doing it for herself.

In fact I can't really think of any situation where dressing up wouldn't have the end-goal of making yourself feel better or at the very least less bad.

Yes, you make a good point, that can be argued. You make another good point, that dressing up never really makes you feel worse.

But just becomes it's easily argued, doesn't make it true.

I could easily argue that I'm writing all these messages because of my altruistic nature and wanting to facility clear thinking and good communication. And it would be something that couldn't easily (but probably in some way) be shown false.

But the truth is, that I do it because of a joy for debating, that I enjoy conversing especially with stupid people (I don't mean you).

My point is: Just because something can be argued, doesn't mean it's the underlying causal reason why something happens.

But it does mean that it's possible.

Both sides of the argument can be argued. My point was not that my side was right and the other wrong. My point was that my side was an alternate possibility and as such the other side might not be true.

I frankly don't know. I don't have exact insight in both the conscious and subconscious reasoning of everyone. But I do think that my alternative carries enough weight to be seriously considered.

 

[Hagi]

But it does mean that it's possible.

Both sides of the argument can be argued. My point was not that my side was right and the other wrong. My point was that my side was an alternate possibility and as such the other side might not be true.

I frankly don't know. I don't have exact insight in both the conscious and subconscious reasoning of everyone. But I do think that my alternative carries enough weight to be seriously considered.

Final post (although I will be lurking for a few more pages, probably tomorrow).

Yes, I agree, it's possible. And frequently true, too.

I'm really glad that we're seeing eye to eye on this. If I went against you, I must have misunderstood you. My point is nearly identical. Both sides can be true and they both certainly must be true at different times.

I wish to high five you on the way out.

Spoiler: Very well then good sir, a high-five it shall be

 

[Paradoxrifts]

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And discrediting this researcher just because she is a woman doesn't serve you well tbh. I don't see you with any relevant qualifications. If someone comes up with evidence of a connection than you can't just throw your dummy out of the pram and say BUTS THAT'S BAD SCIENCE!

I'm sorry but that's really not the right way to go about it.

Attacking the messenger now, are we?

The question you should really be concerning yourself with is why on earth a common layman can point out glaring problems with some of her research by exercising a little logic, a little knowledge and some critical thinking skills. You also don't quite seem to grasp the importance of the role of criticism in relation to scientific endeavor and the establishment of scientific consensus.

And no, I did not bring up pornography first. You did. You were making arguments on the effects of objectification based on sources that primarily dealt with the subject of pornography. All I did was call you out on it.

 

[ensouls]

I don't think it's justifiable to blame video game boob jiggles on Japanese culture.
That is all.

 

[DjinnFor]

Upon further analysis, maybe it will. This isn't the first time the fighting game community has been unapologetic, if not proud to be anywhere from insensitive to discriminatory to female gamers.

The reality is, the fighting game community is insensitive and derogatory towards any gamer, male or female, who enters the community. Nothing new here.

Similarly, Dead or Alive is not a franchise that millions of girls have been eagerly anticipating only to find that suddenly, the development team has added sexist pandering to male gamers. Dead or Alive has always been targeted to particular interests at the expense of others. As far as I'm concerned if you aren't going to buy the game you really don't have the right nor should you feel the responsibility to criticize it on any opinions you may have on its subject matter.

Other people have different interests than you and part of living in a civilized society is respecting that fact.