Doctor Who Series 6.13: "The Wedding of River Song' [SPOILERS] + Series wrap up

[OriginalLadders]

I dunno, there seemed to be some flawed logic in getting around him and River needing to touch - in that she was touching (what was effectively) a robot.

And they need to have a clean cut somewhere. I honestly thought this whole "Silence" plot line had been wrapped up three times already, and now they're continuing with this "first question" business (which was mentioned at the start of the episode, forgotten about, then thrown out again at the end). Its all getting very messy.

Seeing his hair without having 3 cans of hair spray applied to it has made me consider growing mine out a little though, so there's that.

The Doctor was never the opposite pole though, it was always the Tesselecta.

Also, I don't see how the Silence has been wrapped up? Yes there is the recurring message making all of humanity kill them on sight, but that's only humans, there's a whole rest-of-the-universe for them to plot in.

 

[Rawne1980]

So...what other plot holes have you spotted? Because I really can't think of any.

Let us count the ways (Roger Rabbit reference there for your entertainment).

"silence will fall" when "the Pandorica opens" ...... Sound familiar?

The Doctor uses the remaining atoms of the original universe inside the Pandorica to restore the universe to normal ...... wait, what? As plots go ... come on, even for Doctor Who thats as far fetched as a bucket of shit from China.

Just how many times will the "silence fall".

How did Amy manage to get "kidnapped" and replaced without anyone knowing (never explained).

I need to get the big one of my chest ... Fixed point in time, no matter what the incarnation of the Doctor has been it's always been a staple that a fixed point in time can't be altered or bad things happen, on that do we agree?

Now then, how did ye olde Doctor survive? And no, just no that would not work. He did not die therefore a fixed point in time has been altered. The whole universe/time line/fate would not be fooled by "but it was not me, t'was the robot with shrunken me in it". It was a cheap ending and quite insulting to the viewers intelligence. Also, massive plot hole.

While the episode last week wasn't "too" bad it left a big plot hole ... Cybermen destroyed by "love". Yes we've seen them destroyed with emotion before bu thats when their own emotion inhibitors have been destroyed NOT when a human has a show of emotion near them. So we are expected to believe that every time a cyber army has taken humans to be "assimilated" that none of them have shown upset and cried or love for a close friend/family member/child/goldfish. Again it was insulting to our intelligence and a massive insult to one of the Doctors more legendary foes.

Rory. Erased from time, brought back, became a robot centurion, became human but retained memories from being a robot centurion, became a soldier with no memory of ..... well ..... anything.

I think thats enough to be going on with for now.

Don't get me wrong though, I do really enjoy Doctor Who (why else would I watch it, i'm not a masochist who watches TV he hates) I just preferred it when it was family entertainment and didn't try too hard to do too much.

For instance, Sylvester McCoy is my favourite Doctor to date (mainly because I had a teenage crush on Ace ... she was nice).

 

[Woodsey]

I dunno, there seemed to be some flawed logic in getting around him and River needing to touch - in that she was touching (what was effectively) a robot.

And they need to have a clean cut somewhere. I honestly thought this whole "Silence" plot line had been wrapped up three times already, and now they're continuing with this "first question" business (which was mentioned at the start of the episode, forgotten about, then thrown out again at the end). Its all getting very messy.

Seeing his hair without having 3 cans of hair spray applied to it has made me consider growing mine out a little though, so there's that.

The Doctor was never the opposite pole though, it was always the Tesselecta.

Also, I don't see how the Silence has been wrapped up? Yes there is the recurring message making all of humanity kill them on sight, but that's only humans, there's a whole rest-of-the-universe for them to plot in.

Ah, yeah, that does make sense then, I guess.

And I mean the fucking thing keeps seeming like its been wrapped up, and then it rears its head again. They need to be done with it, and now.

For an over-arching plot its been very poorly threaded.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

A few things:

I was talking to someone about halfway through the season and said that it would be really cool if the question was "Doctor who?". So I totally fucking called it even if we couldn't think of any way that that would make sense as the question.

More pertinent to the episode, I feel remarkably cheated. Moffat straight-up said in interviews repeatedly that this really was the Doctor's death: his true, final, one death. He even made a point about how a show about time travel allows you to do that pretty easily because there are still hundreds of years between the dead Doctor's age and the current Doctor's age. Instead, he just saved him despite that. He didn't come up with some clever way of killing the Doctor and making things still work (and, again, given the hundreds of years, he honestly didn't even need to), he just did exactly what he said he wasn't going to do. That felt remarkably cheap. I expect better from him.

Also, everyone is treating this as some big relevation, but we learned almost nothing about any of the overarching plots. We know what the question is, but it's completely meaningless without any sort of context. We know that the unknown thing whispered to him from River is a different unknown thing than the unknown thing we thought it was. And we know that he didn't die at the lake, but that wasn't really a question in the first place since we didn't really have any reason to believe that he didn't just die there. So nothing really substative was revealed at all.

And the final bit where we discover how he escaped death seemed pretty lame comparatively. We just got what felt like a tacked-on thirty seconds showing him having the ship die instead of him. It was a fine twist (ignoring the fact that, again, Moffat straight-up lied about this happening), it just didn't compare to the majesty of previous twists like those in the Pandorica episodes.

Edit: That said, no plot holes (beyond the usual wibbly-wobbly-timey-whimey stuff anyway). The Doctor and River had to touch, but that WAS the Doctor in the weird timeline, it was only the Teselecta in the Lake Silencio timeline. The fixed point in time was indeed fixed, people were just wrong about what was fixed in it from the first place. It was always the Teselecta that died there, both before and after this episode.

 

[OriginalLadders]

Ah, yeah, that does make sense then, I guess.

And I mean the fucking thing keeps seeming like its been wrapped up, and then it rears its head again. They need to be done with it, and now.

For an over-arching plot its been very poorly threaded.

I appreciate what you're saying, but (to me at least) the Silence seems like a pretty good villain, much better than the "X all the Y!" mentality possessed by the Daleks and Cybermen and so on.

EDIT:

 

[Kurai Angelo]

What an awful end to a truely awful series of Dr Who. Only the james cordon episode was really good, spoiled by Amy Pond's cameo. This series has been full of continuity errors, more retcons than you can count and the truely tiresom plot of Amy pond and river song. River song has been the most over used and underwhelming character to hit dr who. Poorly devised retcons to turn her into a central character, which just wouldnt end.

What retcons?

well making her amy and roreys daughter for one.
Making river that black girl who died for another.
making river song part timelord.

these are all retcons.

Those aren't retcons... they're plot developments.

No those are retcons. Discovering something never previously known about someone after the fact is called a retcon. Changing something about someone i.e introducing the black girl at the end, into amy and roreys past is retro active continuity. She was added after the fact, a retcon. I dont know how to explain that any better

Uhh...

Definition for retcon:
Retroactive continuity (often shortened to retcon) refers to the deliberate alteration of previously established facts in a work of serial fiction.

When was it an established fact that she WASN'T their daughter?
When was it an established fact Mels (that black girl as you put it) DIDN'T exist in their lives?
When was it an established fact that River WASN'T half TimeLord?

I'm sorry but your argument is retarded. What you are describing are developments of characters that have been revealed as and when the story required them to be known. Where would the suspense have been if River's entire fucking back story had been outlined in her first epsiode? She would have been completely pointless as a story telling device. Obviously your brain has trouble with plot twists, perhaps you should stick to watching something else.

Right first off, calm down and stop swearing. I havent been offensive to you so don't be offensive to me. If you being insulting to put your put across is your only way, then it shows your level of intellect for what it is.

I have admitted to someone else that these may not be technically retcons, but they are as close as without changing any so called established facts.

To believe that moffat had designs to make all these plot points with River song in mind, when she lay dying in the library seems rather unlikely. I cannot imagine he was writing plot points to go for characters 2 seasons ahead that hadnt even been written. The fact is river song as a character has been in dr who 3 seasons. Therefore somethings, like the sudden addition of mel as a plot point, is just moffat adding things as and when to make things fit with his new story. That reflects in the quality of programme, as dr who is ment to be thought provoking, but when you can see things like that being done it doesnt make for good watching.

It has made river a confused character, with sudden aditions to fit the new story. These are hardly thought provoking twists, adding random bits of information to a character that has dragged and ultimately fulfilled every expected outcome.

Say what you like about swearing being a reflection of someone's intellect, I think your spelling and grammar is more indicitive of feeble intelligence. I don't see how the utterance of the word 'fuck' suddenly means I'm stupid...

At the end of the day, you have no idea whatsoever what Moffat was planning so you have no grounds to complain and preach about so called retcons. You may very well be right, half of the things you described could have been major tricks pulled out the arse, so to speak, but again you don't know. Furthermore, to refer to them as retcons is grossly inaccurate. Whatever you may think of the writing or presentation, no established facts have been changed or altered in regards to the issues you raised.

Next time, a bit of reflection on what you're actually pissed off about might be in order before you start whining about retcons. (A google definition search wouldn't hurt either.)

 

[ReservoirAngel]

What an awful end to a truely awful series of Dr Who. Only the james cordon episode was really good, spoiled by Amy Pond's cameo. This series has been full of continuity errors, more retcons than you can count and the truely tiresom plot of Amy pond and river song. River song has been the most over used and underwhelming character to hit dr who. Poorly devised retcons to turn her into a central character, which just wouldnt end.

What retcons?

well making her amy and roreys daughter for one.
Making river that black girl who died for another.
making river song part timelord.

these are all retcons.

Those aren't retcons... they're plot developments.

No those are retcons. Discovering something never previously known about someone after the fact is called a retcon. Changing something about someone i.e introducing the black girl at the end, into amy and roreys past is retro active continuity. She was added after the fact, a retcon. I dont know how to explain that any better

I don't think you can count them as ret cons for one simple reason:

Time can be rewritten. They weren't present at first because the version of events we saw until that point hadn't been altered by future events and time travel in include them. Melody being Amy's best friend for instance? That couldn't have happened until "A Good Man Goes to War", after which Melody Pond went back in time to ensure her parents got together and eventually gave birth to her.

We didn't see her or have her mentioned because from a non-linear non-subjective standpoint, she didn't exist yet.

Time travel, it's very confusing.

 

[Seventh Actuality]

So...what other plot holes have you spotted? Because I really can't think of any.

Let us count the ways (Roger Rabbit reference there for your entertainment).

I need to get the big one of my chest ... Fixed point in time, no matter what the incarnation of the Doctor has been it's always been a staple that a fixed point in time can't be altered or bad things happen, on that do we agree?

Now then, how did ye olde Doctor survive? And no, just no that would not work. He did not die therefore a fixed point in time has been altered. The whole universe/time line/fate would not be fooled by "but it was not me, t'was the robot with shrunken me in it". It was a cheap ending and quite insulting to the viewers intelligence. Also, massive plot hole.
.

Amy's kidnapping happened offscreen. It's not a plot-hole per se, although I agree some kind of explanation like a flashback would have made it easier to swallow.

But this fixed point stuff...I think you need to read some of the earlier posts. The fixed point was not the Doctor dying. Everybody thought it was, but the fixed point was actually River shooting the Tesselecta. By preventing this from happening, River caused everything to go to shit. The Doctor never actually died, and it was never necessary, River just thought it was.

This is the only one of your points that's actually a plot hole. The Cybermen being destroyed by love was cheap (although not any worse than when it happened before), but not a plot hole. Likewise for the other stuff. From my perspective, the Doctor turning into space jesus to beat the Master was cheap and pathetic, but it wasn't a plot hole.

I couldn't disagree more about the "trying too hard" comment, either. Being a show for all ages is no excuse for a total lack of originality and imagination, especially not when that show is Doctor Who. Moffat's run got off to a shaky start, but there was more creativity in the last half-series than RTD's entire tenure.

 

[Woodsey]

Ah, yeah, that does make sense then, I guess.

And I mean the fucking thing keeps seeming like its been wrapped up, and then it rears its head again. They need to be done with it, and now.

For an over-arching plot its been very poorly threaded.

I appreciate what you're saying, but (to me at least) the Silence seems like a pretty good villain, much better than the "X all the Y!" mentality possessed by the Daleks and Cybermen and so on.

Well I think its good they're using new villains, but those two work because they do have a presence. The Weeping Angels have presence. The Silence had some presence initially, but now they're just kind of pushed and pulled to and from the spotlight at a very odd pace.

Now, instead of being kind of freaky, I just think, "weren't they done with these?". The stories just trail off.

 

[DrTobiasWho]

"silence will fall" when "the Pandorica opens" ...... Sound familiar?

The Doctor uses the remaining atoms of the original universe inside the Pandorica to restore the universe to normal ...... wait, what? As plots go ... come on, even for Doctor Who thats as far fetched as a bucket of shit from China.

Just how many times will the "silence fall".

How did Amy manage to get "kidnapped" and replaced without anyone knowing (never explained).

I need to get the big one of my chest ... Fixed point in time, no matter what the incarnation of the Doctor has been it's always been a staple that a fixed point in time can't be altered or bad things happen, on that do we agree?

In reverse order!!! The Dr never died to have to survive. All along he saw his death coming and simply avoided it. It wasn't him in the first episode, he was in the eye. The universe wasn't fooled, because the only change to the universe was what River did.

Amy being kidnapped is not a plothole.

Go look a video clip of the whatchamacall it worm thing saying the silence will fall. Three. Seperate. Sentences. Could mean anything

Also the extrapolating of the universe from a few atoms is bull? I found the return of the timelords and the lightning flinging master to be bull. The universe being built from a few atoms was far better (imo) but not a plot hole.

Do you know how the silence came into being?
Maybe they knew about the cracks and carried that information with them after the universe reboot. You jus' dunnee kno' cap'n. Until you know -all- the facts then you can sit down and call bs from not bs. But you never will so you never will.

Also to that dude who was going on about Amy being able to build a sonic probe or become a kung fu master. Remember Amy said she was able to trick the computer into telling her pretty much anything? With 30 years worth of life it's not unbelieavble to think that maybe she got a lot of the information from there...

You lot, I'll never be finished correcting you.

 

[OriginalLadders]

Well I think its good they're using new villains, but those two work because they do have a presence. The Weeping Angels have presence. The Silence had some presence initially, but now they're just kind of pushed and pulled to and from the spotlight at a very odd pace.

Now, instead of being kind of freaky, I just think, "weren't they done with these?". The stories just trail off.

I agree with you about the Angels, but I think they suffer from the same problems as a lot of Doctor Who villains; one very obvious and very simple motivation. The Silence are more complex and I like that.

At the end of the day, it comes down to personal taste.

 

[Woodsey]

Well I think its good they're using new villains, but those two work because they do have a presence. The Weeping Angels have presence. The Silence had some presence initially, but now they're just kind of pushed and pulled to and from the spotlight at a very odd pace.

Now, instead of being kind of freaky, I just think, "weren't they done with these?". The stories just trail off.

I agree with you about the Angels, but I think they suffer from the same problems as a lot of Doctor Who villains; one very obvious and very simple motivation. The Silence are more complex and I like that.

At the end of the day, it comes down to personal taste.

I like the idea of them wanting to kill him because they see him as doing harm, but that's essentially one line, from one episode surrounded by over-complicated bullshitting. They're not even particularly coherent with that idea; the woman that Amy kills is just portrayed as a cackling witch the entire time.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Well I think its good they're using new villains, but those two work because they do have a presence. The Weeping Angels have presence. The Silence had some presence initially, but now they're just kind of pushed and pulled to and from the spotlight at a very odd pace.

Now, instead of being kind of freaky, I just think, "weren't they done with these?". The stories just trail off.

I agree with you about the Angels, but I think they suffer from the same problems as a lot of Doctor Who villains; one very obvious and very simple motivation. The Silence are more complex and I like that.

At the end of the day, it comes down to personal taste.

Actually, the Angels have never been given a motivation. All that's implied is "they eat time energy". That isn't really a motivation, in my opinion. That's just how they survive. Humans kill and eat animals, Angels zap sentient life forms back in time and eat the potential energy of their lost years. Or they latch onto the nearest source of massive amounts of temporal energy (the TARDIS first, then the Crack on the Byzantium).

That's just how they live. sure it's horrible but it's never been about world desctruction or genocide.

And therein lies why I think Cyberman and Daleks are, in a word, retarded. Both of them are "make our kind the only thing left", through conversion of other beings or outright destruction, respectively. But... then what? Those two forces have the drive and the means but never the ends. What are they going to do with themselves once they're all that's left?

The Daleks especially. Their entire lives are based on hatred and war, so once they only have themselves what then? An endless series of Civil Wars until only one Dalek remains, like the Dalek Highlander or something?

That's why I think the Silence work. For all their shady, murderous shit... they're trying to save the Universe. Silence will fall when Question is answered, and they don't want that.

 

[Linakrbcs]

What an awful end to a truely awful series of Dr Who. Only the james cordon episode was really good, spoiled by Amy Pond's cameo. This series has been full of continuity errors, more retcons than you can count and the truely tiresom plot of Amy pond and river song. River song has been the most over used and underwhelming character to hit dr who. Poorly devised retcons to turn her into a central character, which just wouldnt end.

What retcons?

well making her amy and roreys daughter for one.
Making river that black girl who died for another.
making river song part timelord.

these are all retcons.

Those aren't retcons... they're plot developments.

No those are retcons. Discovering something never previously known about someone after the fact is called a retcon. Changing something about someone i.e introducing the black girl at the end, into amy and roreys past is retro active continuity. She was added after the fact, a retcon. I dont know how to explain that any better

Uhh...

Definition for retcon:
Retroactive continuity (often shortened to retcon) refers to the deliberate alteration of previously established facts in a work of serial fiction.

When was it an established fact that she WASN'T their daughter?
When was it an established fact Mels (that black girl as you put it) DIDN'T exist in their lives?
When was it an established fact that River WASN'T half TimeLord?

I'm sorry but your argument is retarded. What you are describing are developments of characters that have been revealed as and when the story required them to be known. Where would the suspense have been if River's entire fucking back story had been outlined in her first epsiode? She would have been completely pointless as a story telling device. Obviously your brain has trouble with plot twists, perhaps you should stick to watching something else.

Right first off, calm down and stop swearing. I havent been offensive to you so don't be offensive to me. If you being insulting to put your put across is your only way, then it shows your level of intellect for what it is.

I have admitted to someone else that these may not be technically retcons, but they are as close as without changing any so called established facts.

To believe that moffat had designs to make all these plot points with River song in mind, when she lay dying in the library seems rather unlikely. I cannot imagine he was writing plot points to go for characters 2 seasons ahead that hadnt even been written. The fact is river song as a character has been in dr who 3 seasons. Therefore somethings, like the sudden addition of mel as a plot point, is just moffat adding things as and when to make things fit with his new story. That reflects in the quality of programme, as dr who is ment to be thought provoking, but when you can see things like that being done it doesnt make for good watching.

It has made river a confused character, with sudden aditions to fit the new story. These are hardly thought provoking twists, adding random bits of information to a character that has dragged and ultimately fulfilled every expected outcome.

I just rewatched that episode when the Doctor meets River for the first time, and she mentions the crash of the Byzantium. So some part of that story must already have been planned back then.

 

[OriginalLadders]

I like the idea of them wanting to kill him because they see him as doing harm, but that's essentially one line, from one episode surrounded by over-complicated bullshitting. They're not even particularly coherent with that idea; the woman that Amy kills is just portrayed as a cackling witch the entire time.

I beginning the think we both mean different things when we mention the Silence. I'm talking about the species of Alien that had set themselves up on Earth as secret rulers.

I entirely agree with you about the cackling idiot.

 

[Rawne1980]

You lot, I'll never be finished correcting you.

And believe it or not I actually appreciate it.

With work I haven't managed to watch every episode of the past 2 seasons properly. A few of them I did but some were "at a glance" (I work from home and tend to watch TV while on the laptop and lose concentration).

So, while I admit my points are not well researched I do appreciate being proven wrong on things and corrected.

It shows it really was just me not paying attention and not the show going to shit.

Although I do think certain things have been, as you say, "cheap" and seemingly hastily done while they may not be the "plot holes" I first thought.

Although the whole "Amy being taken off camera" IS a plot hole. It's a hole we are assuming because no-one knows what the hell happened.

 

[Secret world leader (shhh)]

His name is Doc Tor Who, in case the fat blue guy didn't make it blatantly obvious enough. Shitty episode though.
"this is a fixed point in history, it can't be rewritten"
"Yes it can!"
*rewrites history*

 

[Woodsey]

I like the idea of them wanting to kill him because they see him as doing harm, but that's essentially one line, from one episode surrounded by over-complicated bullshitting. They're not even particularly coherent with that idea; the woman that Amy kills is just portrayed as a cackling witch the entire time.

I beginning the think we both mean different things when we mention the Silence. I'm talking about the species of Alien that had set themselves up on Earth as secret rulers.

I entirely agree with you about the cackling idiot.

Yeah, she works for them - and whilst you could argue her character is not representative, its a bit of a problem when she's the character who explains the Silence's motive in the first place.

 

[OriginalLadders]

Actually, the Angels have never been given a motivation. All that's implied is "they eat time energy". That isn't really a motivation, in my opinion. That's just how they survive. Humans kill and eat animals, Angels zap sentient life forms back in time and eat the potential energy of their lost years. Or they latch onto the nearest source of massive amounts of temporal energy (the TARDIS first, then the Crack on the Byzantium).

That's just how they live. sure it's horrible but it's never been about world desctruction or genocide.

And therein lies why I think Cyberman and Daleks are, in a word, retarded. Both of them are "make our kind the only thing left", through conversion of other beings or outright destruction, respectively. But... then what? Those two forces have the drive and the means but never the ends. What are they going to do with themselves once they're all that's left?

The Daleks especially. Their entire lives are based on hatred and war, so once they only have themselves what then? An endless series of Civil Wars until only one Dalek remains, like the Dalek Highlander or something?

That's why I think the Silence work. For all their shady, murderous shit... they're trying to save the Universe. Silence will fall when Question is answered, and they don't want that.

How is survival not a motivation?

Yeah, she works for them - and whilst you could argue her character is not representative, its a bit of a problem when she's the character who explains the Silence's motive in the first place.

I have to agree with that, but to me it becomes a case of "great concept, less than great execution" and still ends up being pretty good.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Although the whole "Amy being taken off camera" IS a plot hole. It's a hole we are assuming because no-one knows what the hell happened.

Not entirely. It's definitely a severe issue, though. If you think about, The Silence would have had to kidnap Amy and replace her with a flesh Ganger... even though we've never seen them have access to Time Travel capabilities... and they would need Amy in the future to create the Ganger in the first place. But it would have to be Amy before she was taken in the past or she'd have all the memories of being taken in the Ganger form.

Okay it is a plot hole, and it makes no fucking sense when you commit any serious nerd-thought to it. But with this show, I forgive more than I do with any other. We got our awesome pay off in the form of the Battle of Demon's Run and we finally figure out who the hell River Song actually is, so I'd call it about even.

And people complaining that River Song being Melody is a plot hole are the most annoying people in the entire of Doctor Who fandom. Well... second most annoying, just behind people who keep wishing for Matt Smith to regenerate back into David Tennant.

I hate those people.