Does TES need an overhaul of combat?

[Eclectic Dreck]

the only people who can say magic is underpowered in Skyrim are people who have never tired to use anything but destruction magic to damage things.

I'd agree with this. For groups, illusion magic is excellent. For single targets, there's always conjuration. Destruction is more of a point defense magic. Attempting to use it exclusively just tends to result in the realization that bows are better than lightning bolts with equal investment.

 

[SlaveNumber23]

I don't think it needs a complete overhaul but the melee combat definitely needs a lot of sharpening, like a LOT of sharpening. Bows and magic are fine though, at least in mechanics, the spell system does need a rework but as far as using spells in combat goes, its great.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Been trying to mod this in, but Skyrim is annoying me with how its buffs work.

I'd just have a mod linked to the game clock that simply applies one of a number of status effects. An example is this:

Simply track every 12 game hours. If, during that 12 hour span the player has not consumed any food objects, increment a counter. Use that counter to select a status effect using a list like this:

1) -10% max stamina
2) -10% max stamina, -10% stamina regeneration
3) -15% max stamina, -10% stamina regeneration
.
.
.
14) -50% max stamina, -50% stamina regeneration, -5% max health
.
.
.
28) -75% max stamina, -75% stamina regeneration, -25% max health, -100% health regeneration
.
.
.
48) -99% max stamina, -99% stamina regeneration, -75% max health, -100% health regeneraton
.
.
.
60) death

Rather than applying a real time calculation or trying to wrangle the bug inducing SSE, simply use the existing buff types and make lots of them to represent various stages. My example above is based loosely around realistic depiction of death by starvation for a person constantly exerting themselves. It should be noted of course that this system doesn't really work given how incredibly common food items are. This is the same problem Fallout New Vegas had with hardcore mode: you'd have to go out of your way to die (or even be hindered by) the problems of food and water.

 

[WoW Killer]

Power attacks while moving in different directions cause you to power attack in a visibly different way.

Furthermore, both the one handed and two handed skill trees have perks that change the power attacks based on what direction you are moving

One handed
-Critical Charge: Can do a one-handed power attack while sprinting that does double critical damage.
-Paralyzing Strike: Backwards power attack has a 25% chance to paralyze the target.

Two handed
-Sweep: Sideways power attacks with two-handed weapons hit all targets in front of you.
-Great Critical Charge: Can do a two-handed power attack while sprinting that does double critical damage.

One handed changes you forward and backwards power attacks, while two handed modifies sideways and forward power attacks.

And both have the perk Savage Strike/Devastating Blow which alter s your default standing power attacks by giving them +25% damage, and a chance to decapitate your enemies.

Not sure if you had a point there. Regardless, most of the attacks aren't useful, and particularly not without the perks. The charge is good, but regular forwards power attacks are basically the same thing as a standing attack but with a longer animation (and less damage if you have the decapitator perk). In other words, if you use the, you're doing it wrong. Same thing for side attacks with a one-hander. The cleave attack with the two-hander is more like what they need, as in it has a distinct purpose. The reverse attacks rarely hit anything as the animation is so clumsy (two-hander has the same perk btw), but even then then invoking an RNG for the special effect is lazy; it should be a short paralysis whenever it interrupts an attack or something.

Really they need to have better movements. Like with the side attacks; the short steps you make won't ever actually dodge anything. It needs to be a bigger and quicker movement, so that it would naturally counter an enemy coming at you with a straight attack. But that's just the sort of thing that could be disorientating in first person; I imagine that's why the current movements are so subtle.

 

[Zhukov]

YES!

Walking up to each enemy in turn and left clicking until they die while sipping on the occasional potion is not a good combat system.

Niether is abusing the grossly overpowered sneak function.

As opposed to an FPS, where combat is "aim at enemy and left click"?
I think the combat in TES is fine, because it USED TO need help, and they hit a sweet spot in the last one. It can only get better, and if you you have to bring it's combat into question - then I have to ask "what have YOU played?" that's spoiling you so much.

I would hope there is something similar, but better, than anyone bringing up this argument would point out.

In good FPSs you are aiming at moving/dodging targets and trying to avoid incoming fire at the same time. There are usually different weapons/grenades/etc that affect combat in different ways.

In TES none of these things apply. There is no aiming since you are attacking point blank at targets that don't dodge. The player cannot dodge either. You just tank whatever attacks come your way. The weapons all act the same. When I said "walking up to each enemy in turn and left clicking until they die" I meant it literally, since that's all I ever needed to do.

As for the games I've been spoiled by, uh... oh yes, fucking everything. It would be hard to do combat any worse than TES.

Some specific examples of games that do combat better:
(In order to avoid listing almost every game ever made, I shall restrict this to fairly recent games that do melee-based combat in a 3D environment.)
- Batman Arkham City/Asylum
- Zeno Clash (except for the stupid lock-on system)
- Mirror's Edge
- Dishonored
- Dark Souls
- Dragon's Dogma
- Dark Messiah of Might and Magic
- War of the Roses
- Sleeping Dogs

Hell, I don't even like some of those games. But they still presented me with better combat than the tepid, simplistic crap in the TES games.

 

[Therumancer]

TES is an RPG not an action game with some RPG elements tacked on like "Dark Souls". Combat is intended to be resolved mostly by the attributes of your character, not by your abillity to respond and perform moves and combos. This might not be to everyone's tastes, but it is what makes TES what it is, games like Dark Souls exist specifically as a counterpoint for those who want arcade style combat.

I think TES should remain more or less how it is, it's perfect for what it set out to do, and it's one of the few games where the stats are the driving force that remains on a AAA level.

WAT ??

This would of passed if you were talking about Morrowind, Daggerfall..earlier ES games. But they went to twitch/action gameplay with Oblivion. So yes, it is an action game with RPG elements.

Wrong, they made it into more of an action game which got some criticisms, but the numbers are still ultimatly the driving force, if they aren't on your side, you will fail in combat even if the "twitch" would imply success, such as an outright failure to penetrate and do signifigant damage. This is however somewhat mitigated by the fact that the game is broken in favor of the player so it's difficult to actually run into anything OPed compared to the player to see it in action. The biggest "arcade" aspect of the game has been the way they handle blocking in real time, as opposed to making it the passive function of a skill.

What the OP suggests would make it flat out an action game, by making you react in real time and use specific situational moves constantly and basic results off of that. In Skyrim as it is now mostly it comes down to "the attack" and if it goes in the right place it's all about the numbers rather than some kind of relational move/coutermove, which is why there are comparitively few attack moves, the variations largely being present to represent specific special abillities. Likewise things that your abillity to insta-kill and such are based around the RNG where you have so much of a chance of something happening when you strike, which is why not every move is a deathblow, you don't have to line up a fancy decapitation for example, if you hit and you have the right skills and a good "roll" it happens.

Ok. When I played Oblivious I never even bothered looking at my stats pages. Bethesda doesn't want stats and stuff to get in the way of your "role playing". LOL. That's why they have the retarded leveling system that they have. Just go out there and play..What ever you enjoy using/doing more, you'll get better at. Herp.

Well one of the problems with Elder Scrolls is that they got dumbed down to the point where any casual could succeed at the game on a basic level. That said I very much doubt you really dominated Oblivion doing that since the entire meta-game about min-maxing is based around understanding the stats. For example given the auto-leveling system it's most optimal to make your advancement skills ones you don't use, so as you level your combat skills everything stays weak while you simply become increasingly stronger.

Indeed one recurring joke, which even applies to Skyrim, is that if you just wing it and decide to focus on non-combat skills, you can rapidly find yourself facing a world where the monsters have all leveled up and your stuck with no combat abillity to deal with them.

Critical Miss even did a strip about it, the whole "while your picking Daisies, the Draug are training", etc... thing. The stats DO matter which is why some people have wound up in the position of deciding to play around in the world, putting off the quests/combat dungeons, before walking into a dungeon with like a steel sword and a skill of like 30 and seeing the entire place is chock full of Draug Overlords and such carrying high end weapons and spamming frost spells so you die as soon as you look at them, and can't do any damage even if you DO manage to land a hit. It happened enough where it was amusing to hear about for a while.

That's also incidently why I mentioned it's hard to really see the level differances, because if you just play like most people, the game levels up it's difficulty in proportion to you. It's hard to find something that's higher level than you early on when your playing on normal due to the way it spawns the mobs and encounters. That said it IS possible with some luck to say run into a very high level group of Thalmar escorting a prisoner or whatever soon after you start if your "lucky" with the random encounters/content. Toss the guy a spare iron weapon and try and fight them your likely to wind up having your face bounced off the ground a lot (though with the power of save and reload you can probably win). I've had things like that happen while goofing off with differant characters, though it's not especially common to even see something like that early on (and to be fair, it probably only has a chance of occuring because you don't have to fight them).

 

[Arina Love]

Yes. TES combat system is just boring. i like to do more things with my sword than just swing it. DA2 gets w-rpg combat pretty spot on.

 

[Your Gaffer]

TES is probably the perfect example of a game the succeeds despite of itself. All the actual mechanics are kind of lame. The combat is the very definition of mediocre, the challenge curve is all over the place until you hit a certain level and then everything is just way too easy. Even most of the quests are boring slogs.

The part of the game that is great is the exploration, finding interesting things in the wilderness, going hunting and crafting armor, picking potion ingredients, exploring new towns, etc.

TES is a series that really needs some new talent working on it. There is a ton to love and I have been playing the series extensively since Morrowind but the parts that don't work really don't work. Look at character leveling. It is as good as it has ever been and thank god there is no more "efficient leveling" but still needs a lot of work.

Basically they need to take what works well, the exploration, and expand upon it, adding lots of interesting places, people, and events for you to stumble across out in the world while also giving you things to do (they do this in Skyrim with hunting and ingredient picking among other things). Then they need to further improve combat, perhaps give it a complete overhaul, and make all the quests as fun as the Dark Brotherhood quests.

Then they would have the perfect TES game. Also, bring back levitation.

 

[Mad World]

Frankly...

Well, one could dispute that, actually; each to their own.

Anyway, I don't think it's terrible. Wouldn't necessarily require an overhaul, I'd say. But, then again, it could greatly improve the game.

I haven't played Skyrim a ton (played Oblivion way more), but I actually enjoyed the combat a fair bit.

Personally, I'm waiting for developers to stop obsessing over graphics so much. That way, maybe we can see truly advanced AI, for example, in games.

Dark Souls was an amazing game. Combat was fun, but difficult (for me, both positive points). The atmosphere was amazing. The entire thing was one big level; it wasn't based on multiple levels that loaded one after another. It was so cool how it started off in sort of a castle-type environment, but wasn't limited to that. Feels awesome the first time you walk into Darkroot Garden, for example.

 

[Macgyvercas]

YES!

Walking up to each enemy in turn and left clicking until they die while sipping on the occasional potion is not a good combat system.

Niether is abusing the grossly overpowered sneak function.

But...but...I LIKE abusing the grossly overpowered sneak function.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

If you've experienced one battle with an enemy in TES, you've experienced all possible battles with that enemy. The most they can do is with the current system is to continue to create varieties of enemy. But by the time you've finished an eighth of the available quests in any of the TES games you've already encountered all the enemies there are. So there's no other way than to overhaul the whole thing.

On the other hand, some gamers like extreme repetition, and if they make up 90% of TES's consumer base then why change?

Spoiler

 

[CannibalCorpses]

I've been thinking on this and i've come to the conclusion that they should leave the combat system alone.

They will never be able to make it challenging enough to satisfy my playing style and all that they would really do is alienate all the casual gamers who absolutely adore these open world wandering exploration games and who actually shell out their cash for them. I can't see any reason why they should go down that route...the game sells well despite it being distinctly average in most areas and would require a shit load of effort and resources to set right...nah, they need to leave it alone until they come up with the next generation take on the genre.

OP: You found combat boring in Skyrim but found it to be good in Dark souls? I found it equally tedious in both for the same reason...a lack of options. You always end up approaching combat in the same way...either charge in and slaughter everything without trying or charge in and get slaughtered because you aren't ready for where your at. I didn't enjoy Skyrim but i totally hated Dark souls...both are hype monsters that got far more attention than they deserved but thus is life when the market it saturated with casual gamers

 

[Joccaren]

It hasn't?

No really, the alchemy and enchanting exploits are still in the game, they have never been patched out.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there is now a cap on how much you can get in the way of fortify bonuses, so you are no longer able to game the system to infinite power - merely power a leap above normal levels, and even then it requires a lot more set up.

well
1. You can play a stealth ranger with challenge, just don't use a OP bow.
2. Most of the other things you talked about can be added via mods, they shouldn't be in the base game because that forces people to play a harder game then they want. that is why Bethesda supporting modding, they know not everyone likes their gameplay mechanics, and so hey let people mod the game to suit their needs.

1. And not get any OP perks, so basically just play with the first bow you get without leveling up. Considering loot upgrade and leveling up are fairly large parts of the game, that's kinda defeating the purpose of playing for a lot of people.
2. You know, that is the point of difficulty settings - choosing the difficulty you want to play the game at. You don't want to play a game that hard, turn down the difficulty. As is difficulty is simply a timescale of how long it will take you to kill your enemy, rather than an actual difficulty adjustment. Actual difficulty in the game is handled by mods and the players.
Honestly, it should be the other way around. Mods are there for those who enjoy more monotonous tedium to implement if they want, whilst actual difficulty is in the game. This allows console players to experience different styles of play, and be able to select difficulty settings, and if they want the tedium of Master difficulty just use their fists on Normal.

All builds are viable in skyrim, to say otherwise is 100% false.

Pure destruction mage. Possible?
Yes.
Viable?
Practically no, unless you've got enough time to sink an hour into killing a dragon thanks to the non-scaling damage.

the only people who can say magic is underpowered in Skyrim are people who have never tired to use anything but destruction magic to damage things.

What happened to being able to play your own way?
Does that not apply to people who like destruction magic?
Against large numbers of enemies with high HP, a pure destruction mage is going to have a battle that is even more tedious than normal - something that is inadvisable if you want people to try that playstyle.

 

[Joccaren]

snip

Eh, in that aspect I was more talking about sleep, and using it to restore stamina. The game really dislikes it when you try to do this. You can give a permanent stamina regeneration buff, or you can give a permanent stamina increase buff, or you can get a permanent buff that sets the stamina to a certain value, but as of yet I've found it near impossible to have sleeping restore your stamina thanks to the type of ability that applies the status effect. I've tried every combination of settings for it without using Papyrus code as a substitute, but it has never worked.

Also, would you have any idea why my character is able to sprint and power attack on 0 stamina now? Its kinda breaking the whole point of having stamina -.-

 

[SajuukKhar]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there is now a cap on how much you can get in the way of fortify bonuses, so you are no longer able to game the system to infinite power - merely power a leap above normal levels, and even then it requires a lot more set up.

There are no caps, if you have one, it was added via a mod, and not an official update.

1. And not get any OP perks, so basically just play with the first bow you get without leveling up. Considering loot upgrade and leveling up are fairly large parts of the game, that's kinda defeating the purpose of playing for a lot of people.
2. You know, that is the point of difficulty settings - choosing the difficulty you want to play the game at. You don't want to play a game that hard, turn down the difficulty. As is difficulty is simply a timescale of how long it will take you to kill your enemy, rather than an actual difficulty adjustment. Actual difficulty in the game is handled by mods and the players.
Honestly, it should be the other way around. Mods are there for those who enjoy more monotonous tedium to implement if they want, whilst actual difficulty is in the game. This allows console players to experience different styles of play, and be able to select difficulty settings, and if they want the tedium of Master difficulty just use their fists on Normal.

Getting bow perks means nothing if your now is crap, using the first bow in the game, even with all the perks, isn't going to get you far.

You have a weird idea of mods, mods should built upon a game and make it more complex, not tear down the games mechanics into monotony.

As for console player, I am sorry, but Elder Scrolls is a game meant for the PC, if you choose to buy the game on an inferior system, expect an inferior product. If Microsoft would allow it, there would be mods on the consoles, but their greed prevent it.

Pure destruction mage. Possible?
Yes.
Viable?
Practically no, unless you've got enough time to sink an hour into killing a dragon thanks to the non-scaling damage.

What happened to being able to play your own way?
Does that not apply to people who like destruction magic?
Against large numbers of enemies with high HP, a pure destruction mage is going to have a battle that is even more tedious than normal - something that is inadvisable if you want people to try that playstyle.

There is a limit to the amount of dumb you can impose on your character before the system breaks, you cant go only alchemy, or only heavy armor and still win.

Also, a "build" consists of more then one skill, usually 4-6 skills, picked by the player because of synergy or useful effect combinations, a destruction ONLY mage isn't a build, and thus doesn't apply to the "every build works" comment.

 

[Joccaren]

There are no caps, if you have one, it was added via a mod, and not an official update.

After a quick Google search there is a cap at around 39-45% by default, which can be worked around by maxing your restoration tree, getting the perk that increases your magic's effectiveness against undead, becoming a vampire to take advantage of this perk, then doing a loop involving boosting restoration, enchanting and alchemy. A simple enchanting/alchemy exploit does have a cap, however with high restoration, or using the console, you can break through.

Getting bow perks means nothing if your now is crap, using the first bow in the game, even with all the perks, isn't going to get you far.

Powershot, quickshot and bullseye are advantageous no matter what bow your using.
And even excluding that, the DPS difference between a long bow and a Daedric bow is about 3.5 DPS in favour of the Daedric from a quick online search.
Base damage also isn't that vastly different - 6 damage vs 19. Its 3 times the damage, sure, but when your unable to be detected thanks to highly leveled sneaking, an extra 2/3 as many shots isn't going to matter.

You have a weird idea of mods, mods should built upon a game and make it more complex, not tear down the games mechanics into monotony.

Mods should edit the game to suit the players want. Nothing more, nothing less.
A game should come with some degree of complexity to its difficulty levels. If the only difference is how many attacks it takes to kill the enemy, the game has done it wrong. If a player wants long, drawn out battles its their choice to use what exists in the game to do so, and it is perfectly possible for them to do so too. If a player wants added complexity or depth, they have to resort to mods. For this reason, complexity and depth should be included in the base game as they are something that is not achievable vanilla unless in the game's release, whilst tedium is easily introduced through other methods, with mods as an improvement on how its introduced.

As for console player, I am sorry, but Elder Scrolls is a game meant for the PC, if you choose to buy the game on an inferior system, expect an inferior product. If Microsoft would allow it, there would be mods on the consoles, but their greed prevent it.

Tell that to Bethesda. TES these days is a game for the Xbox. It doesn't work well on the PS, its interface and optimisation, especially on release, is terrible on the PC, and the only redeeming feature it has on the PC is the ability to mod. Mods are available to turn a console game into a PC game when talking about TES, with other mods there to add in extra features.
I'd also be surprised at mods on consoles. How would console players go about installing them? Downloading them? Creating them?
At best modding on a console would be similar to Halo's Forge - a half assed effort really. Any more and console hard drive size, processor speed, lack of RAM, lack of KB+M, lack of features in the file management system, reliance on disks and more would limit modding greatly.

There is a limit to the amount of dumb you can impose on your character before the system breaks, you cant go only alchemy, or only heavy armor and still win.

Also, a "build" consists of more then one skill, usually 4-6 skills, picked by the player because of synergy or useful effect combinations, a destruction ONLY mage isn't a build, and thus doesn't apply to the "every build works" comment.

Well, I've never played Skyrim with a build then. My playthroughs have been:
-Duel Wielding one handed weapons and Heavy armour
-Two Handed weapons and Heavy armour
-One Handed Weapons, Block and Heavy armour
-Sneak, Light Armour and Archery

And even with just that I became OP as all hell. Why should Destruction magic + Light Armour be any less so?