Don't soldiers seem like...complete idiots?

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tsb247

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Mar 6, 2009
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Zeithri said:
You were never meant to answer them as I were just pointing out my guidelines to you for the kind of people I avoid.
Then I'd say you have no idea what being cynical is and yes, it is healthy. But I suppose you're one of those oversocial people who just have to befriend everyone right? Because if not, why are you trying to argue against what kind of friends I choose and how I choose them? And how can you call it ignorance really when you are just as ignorant back?

Isn't it just you who have the need to be right?
If those are your guidelines for people to avoid, then you must sequester yourself away from quite a large population. Seeing how quite a few people harbor those traits, you will likely be SOL in a social situation.

As for me, I'm hardly overly social. I have a lot of friends, but only a few close ones, and you know what? I hardly find it insulting when you accuse me of being overly social. It's hard to have too many friends in this world, and if you are going to accuse me of it, then fine. I am ok with that.

The difference between you and me appears that I can admit a generalization or a mistake. Yes, I have very little to go on in judging you, and yes, I cannot fully back up these generalizations. However, you seem to think that you have the ability to make generalizations yourself and then claim to be able to prove them. The fact is, I can admit I am lacking in knowledge about you, and cannot form a complete judgement from this internet conversation alone. Can you admit the same thing about those serving in the military?
 

wootsniper

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SUPA FRANKY said:
Hubilub said:
Everyone is a complete idiot.

The soldiers are.

The politicians are.

And most importantly, this person is an idiot.

There, it is done. Everyone is now an idiot, including me. Can we please do a mosh-pit now instead of arguing about the motivations of people most of us don't know?
I would prefer to be called "specially impaired", thank you very much!
That link brings you to....

...nevermind.
 

SUPA FRANKY

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wootsniper said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
Hubilub said:
Everyone is a complete idiot.

The soldiers are.

The politicians are.

And most importantly, this person is an idiot.

There, it is done. Everyone is now an idiot, including me. Can we please do a mosh-pit now instead of arguing about the motivations of people most of us don't know?
I would prefer to be called "specially impaired", thank you very much!
That link brings you to....

...nevermind.
Yea, I figured that out...
 

Cherry Cola

Your daddy, your Rock'n'Rolla
Jun 26, 2009
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cousinletsgobowling said:
Hubilub said:
Everyone is a complete idiot.

The soldiers are.

The politicians are.

And most importantly, this person is an idiot.

There, it is done. Everyone is now an idiot, including me. Can we please do a mosh-pit now instead of arguing about the motivations of people most of us don't know?
dude your a fucking wanker go die in a hole
Calm down man! It's not directed at you!

Look at the URL of the link. It's intended to lead people to their own profile. Anyone who clicks it is sent to their own profile, not yours.

T'is a joke.
 

Chiefmon

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Bourne said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
That really got to me. Don't soldiers ever stop to think what there fighting for? I understand the "protect their love ones" argument, but were their love ones in danger to begin with? It just seems most soldiers across the world go and die and kill because someone had told them too.

Thoughts?
My thoughts? I think you need to take a deep breath before blogging your frustration aloud for the world to hear, and not because anything you said was ignorant, but because men who have served, for reasons which

a) you will never understand
b) they will never be able to make you to understand
and
c) they don't care whether or not you understand,

may take offense at it.

The reason for joining is pretty irrelevent... I will try to relate an experience to you as best I can, but I will not try to convince you of anything. Try and place yourself in the following scenario, putting aside your race, gender, and political affiliations.

You decide to enlist, for one of many reasons. There are financial benefits for you, your spouse, and your children. There are structural benefits, i.e. you just got out of school, have no idea what to do, have some pull towards something you can't even assign a word to, but it is pulling you away from the banality and utter loneliness that exists in the modern world white collar work place. Or perhaps you are looking for fun. Or perhaps your have a family member who died in service before you ever met them. Or perhaps you just liked the Rambo series more than your peers. Whatever.

So, you enlist. You go through the very stressful and high pressure recruiting and processing system, and if you are one of the lucky few who get the MOS (job in the military) of choice, you find some relief in knowing that the next 4-5 active + AT LEAST 3 reserve years of your life will have been under your control, even if only to the smallest degree.

Then, you ship. You are either more excited then you have ever been in your life about anything, be it your first concert, your first motorcycle ride, your first love, or your first brush with death. Your heart's pounding keeps you awake the entire plane ride. Many of your family members may have looked upon you with an expression you can only deride as pity, and it confused you, so instead of pure excitement, you second-guess yourself, you feel like you were duped into something by a clever salesman (which is EXACTLY what recruiters are), and you are a nervous wreck the entire ride to your location of Basic.

So, let's say you chose an Army Ranger option. You arrive at Benning, and Basic starts exactly like you thought it would. A lot of yelling and running and pushups and hurrying up to wait for a long time at attention or in line. You are either in decent shape and get by no problem, or you thought military strong consisted of bench press and squats, and are getting your ass smoked on an hourly basis. Your training progresses, and as you move through school with the same group, a few people drop... A few out a couple hundred strangers... whatever. You didn't really catch their names.

So you get through basic, no small accomplishment, but in the Army, well, you aren't exactly ready for any kind of real test just yet. But you chose the Ranger option, so your PT scores are all maxed out, you are pumped and ready for a real challenge. You run 5-6 miles a day at a 6 minute mile pace, just because it feels good. You get through jump school (easiest thing in the world), and you know some of the guys pretty good now. You start to learn their quirks, their senses of humor, who puts on deodorant, who has a girlfriend, who hunts and fishes, who seems introverted and writes in a journal a lot. You start to respect each and every one of them because you start to sense a feeling of not wanted to let them down growing inside you, and you sense they are feeling mutually towards you. Its almost like pride, but in others and not yourself.

So, you get to Ranger school after your MOS school and jump school. And immediately, all these guys with whom you now share a true friendship (read: you almost never speak unless joking, and if you aren't joking, you are talking about subjects that make the human heart swell or break... love, life, death, family) are suddenly sent, with over 60 lbs of gear strapped to your back, away from all the comforts of life you felt when you were young. For most of you, this is your first grown up experience, and it is terrifying. You eat one meal a day, if any, and you sleep a maximum of 4 hours a night, again, IF AT ALL, for over 40 days. After about a week, your body loses soreness, but you are constantly fatigued. Your vision is constantly blurred. Your stomach is always begging for food, and your instructors are just happy enough to eat your favorite candy bar, or drink an ice cold soda right in front of you, close enough so you can smell it. Hallucinations are now common, and you can see your teammates succumbing to their limits. Many of them, guys you would call your best friends, guys who were the toughest and strongest willed human being you have ever met, cry themselves to sleep, piss themselves, and quit, not even looking you in the eyes before leaving. Most of them, many with whom you made plans to meet up with back home, wherever that is, and grab and beer in some smoke filled bar in complete silence for a few hours, just to let your mind shake loose a little, or catch a movie, or meet their girl... most of them, you will never see or hear from again.

And, while all of this is occurring, you either don't think at all, or you have to convince yourself daily of why you are hear, or why you shouldn't drop out. Even the thought of going back home without that tab on your should is the most unbearable form of shame you can imagine. And, mentally exhausted, you are constantly ordered to patrol, to maneuver, and to lead - to make decisions, tough, critical, impromptu choices that will either secure an objective or end with the death (read: you will witness the end of your friends, and will have that event thrown back in your face by instructors for the duration of the course, and by you for the rest of your life) of your buddies. And finally, just when you think your body is done, and you can't handle it, by some miracle, you make it to the end. Most, if not all, of the students will have lost 10-30 pounds, and all will be mentally different for the duration of their lives. Some will be great at disguising it, others will simply stare at nothing for hours on end (to the bewilderment and alienation of their family and friends), letting the trauma settle over them.

And now you are a Ranger. And nothing else matters. You still love your family and your dog and your girlfriend and your pickup and your first edition of For Whom The Bell Tolls, but you realize those are all things that could potentially be gone tomorrow. If you awoke and all that was left was your pants and a pair of shoes, you are still a Ranger. And you see that same realization in the eyes of the other Rangers. And you silently acknowledge it every time you cross paths with a Ranger. And then you train some more. For years.

And finally, for reasons most of you could care less about, some suit and tie earning six figures (stacked against your 20,000 a year, if you are lucky) in DC decides you need to go to war. All you know is, those men with whom you starved and sweat and bled and laughed and cried with, those men who are closer than the closest of biological brothers, will be going to war, too. And that's all you care about. You don't care what the name of the country is, or who the bad guys are, or what status your Humvee is in, those details will be addressed when necessity calls upon them. Right now, all you know is, your brothers are going to a place where their actions result in the life or death of themselves, and yourself, and there's nothing else.

So you're in war now, and its hot, and its loud, and it smells like the worst kind of smell man has ever been forced to breath, and you volunteered for it. You stay in the field for days, you eat whatever you can, you shit outside your trousers whenever you are lucky enough, and you wipe your ass with your hand. Your feet are bleeding, your underarms and crotch feel like they've lost the top millimeter of skin from a wire brush, and you push it all away. Your senses are sharp. You are a machine.

Your first friend dies. You see him get hit, and you drag his torn body, which falls apart in your hands as he screams right next to your ear, the loudest and most gut-wrenching sound you've ever heard. Your hands are caked in your brother's blood, the worst trauma you've ever endured. And he goes, and you and the rest of your brothers are in shock; the man with whom you've spent the last few years of your life with, with no more than a few days in between seeing each other, is gone forever, and his last screams will never leave. And you keep losing friends, and it wears you down, but you tie it off, you keep shutting down small parts of who you are to keep going, but quitting would not alleviate the stress, it would only amplify it, and you would let your remaining brothers down, a thought worse then death. You've all been to hell together, and you returned alive and intact, a few fingertips or earlobes or toenails notwithstanding. And this goes on for years, until you finally come Home.

Home, the most beautiful thing in the world. Better than heaven. A warm blanket covering you and fending off a bitter cold that knows no equal. And, you get home, and you read or hear someone remark about how some dipshit, a class of human that exists in every single sector of our infrastructure and organization, said or did something reprehensible, and you hear this individual refer to you and your brothers as "fucking morons", or "baby-killers", or "rejects", and you either smile and shake your head, or you just shake your head. Either way, it doesn't matter. They won't ever know. No amount of words will ever make them understand the electrical and chemical signals your brain sends to the front of your eyes, or into your ears while you sleep. No amount of college degrees, or time spent in the library, or trips to wikipedia will ever truly show them what it is we do, and why it is we do it. And they'll keep talking, and maybe they'll piss one of us off enough so that we try and shut you up, but regardless, you will never know. You may be shamed into silence, but you will never fully grasp the code it is that you slander. And you never have to.

Sorry for the long-winded first post, I promise they will rarely be so... forceful.
You have won this thread indefinitely.
 

DalekJaas

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Calling soldiers idiots or stupid is moronic, they are doing their jobs like everyone else. Except they have to be mentally and physically tough enough to go through intense training and normally they are smart as well.

I dunno about the US but in Australia its bloody hard to get into the army at the moment, you have got to be a physical specimen and for any special programs its so competitive that only people with grades that could let them be a doctor get in.

But I am glad to see your 'manga' is influencing your opinions about things. The morons are the ones in politics, who make the choices that the moronic public (i.e. you, your parents and everyone in a democratic country) voted for.

Plus it costs 10s of thousands of dollars in Australia to train a single a soldier, so they aren't trained to run in and die. The real worlds not like your cartoons. But once again I can only speak from an Aussie standpoint, other countries might be different.
 

Brad Shepard

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Sep 9, 2009
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Hubilub said:
Everyone is a complete idiot.

The soldiers are.

The politicians are.

And most importantly, this person is an idiot.

There, it is done. Everyone is now an idiot, including me. Can we please do a mosh-pit now instead of arguing about the motivations of people most of us don't know?
really, how many times have you done this and got people to think you where talking about them?

OT: No, there not idiots, i dont care what anyone thinks, anyone thats willing to put themselfs in danger are nobel in my book. I have many friends and family over seas right now, and every one of them are very smart (Sava one of them) and there all awesome.
 

Cherry Cola

Your daddy, your Rock'n'Rolla
Jun 26, 2009
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Brad Shepard said:
Hubilub said:
Everyone is a complete idiot.

The soldiers are.

The politicians are.

And most importantly, this person is an idiot.

There, it is done. Everyone is now an idiot, including me. Can we please do a mosh-pit now instead of arguing about the motivations of people most of us don't know?
really, how many times have you done this and got people to think you where talking about them?

OT: No, there not idiots, i dont care what anyone thinks, anyone thats willing to put themselfs in danger are nobel in my book. I have many friends and family over seas right now, and every one of them are very smart (Sava one of them) and there all awesome.
Not often at all. I try to avoid overusing it.

Although surprisingly many fell for it.
 

KeyMaster45

Gone Gonzo
Jun 16, 2008
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SUPA FRANKY said:
KeyMaster45 said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
I was reading the One Piece manga recently
I'm going to stop you right there, comparing the soldiers in the real world to soldiers in a comic where they are designed to be half brained morons so the heroes can roflstomp them completely nullifies anything else you have to say.

I don't look highly upon anyone who sits comfortably and safe in their chair criticizing soldiers. Comparing them to the cannon fodder red-shirts of comic books just makes you look like an idiot and puts you lower on the "douche-o-meter".
I'm not criticizing anyone. I'm simply asking why would anyone fight just because someone told them too. Sure, I can understand self defense or to defend your family and friends/homeland, but is that rarely the case in most wars?

So remember: I'm not calling them idiots, I'm saying they SEEM like idiots to me...

YES THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!
Sadly there is no difference when your thread title all but calls them idiots. To quote it
Don't soldiers...seem like idiots?
Right there, right there you called them idiots. You have expressed you hold an opinion that you find soldiers to be idiots (or that the concept of being a soldier is idiotic) and are seeking confirmation on that opinion from other people. You lost before you even began, and only added to that loss by informing us that this opinion was formed whilst reading a comic book.

Your syntax may be different but the meaning is still the same. You sir, called them idiots before your opening post even began. I respect your right to that opinion, but what I take issue with is the logic by which you used to arrive at that opinion. Using comic books for logic does not a sound platform of opinion make. You have made a statement ignorant in its origins of inspiration and therefore lose all credibility when it comes to intelligent discussion on the matter.

 

Arcticflame

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Bourne said:
-Gigantic snip-
Really well written post.


That said, it does glorify something which sometimes is very unglorious work. I'm not saying the soldiers are the bad guys here, but I do think soldiers are often pitted against innocents and basically have no choice but to carry out some morally grey work that some suits and ties have decided.

I obviously have no clue about what soldiers go through, but that doesn't make my opinion any less valid, or make me less of a person than a soldier. That's what gets me, My choice to not have a government goon control what I do with my life doesn't belittle me at all. And a soldier shouldn't be put on a pedestal simply for being a soldier that has served.

That all said, soldiers get it tough often. Narrow minded protestors/anti war folk tend to target soldiers for wars, as if the soldiers had a choice what war they were going to. Blame the person making the decision, not the soldiers.

And tying it back to the OP. Nah, soldiers aren't idiots. But they do sign away their rights somewhat, and basically give their morals to whatever government is in power. Which is necessary for an army to function, however is never a safe practice. A soldier is simply a person, like anyone else.
 

DazBurger

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marter said:
The soldiers fight for our freedom. They take the freedom of a nation above their own lives. It's really a pretty heroic act if you ask me.
But who out there is trying to take our freedom? :/

No one, thats who!


Not that i am some sort of nazi-hippie-communist-pedobear.
I mean, i like that our soldiers is fighting to liberate the people in Iraq and Afganistan... But OUR freedom? Thats stretching it... Alot.
 

Cmwissy

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Aug 26, 2009
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Soldiers are heroes until guns get involved.

Heck, most people are heroes in their own widdle way.

Anyone carrying a gun though, willing to kill, is a villain. Not a hero.
 

KeyMaster45

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Jun 16, 2008
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Cmwissy said:
Soldiers are heroes until guns get involved.

Heck, most people are heroes in their own widdle way.

Anyone carrying a gun though, willing to kill, is a villain. Not a hero.
wtf do you expect them to fight with, rubber swords? Your logic is flawed so badly I don't even know where to start with tearing it apart. At best I would call it an innocent outlook. I suggest you re-examine the world and get a more realistic view, study some history, or go look up the definition for soldier.
 

Cmwissy

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KeyMaster45 said:
wtf do you expect them to fight with, rubber swords?
I don't expect them to fight at all, fighting serves no purpose. The pen is mightier than the sword.


Your logic is flawed so badly I don't even know where to start with tearing it apart.'
The point of a debate is to try, so please. Go ahead.


I suggest you re-examine the world and get a more realistic view, study some history,
A lot of people die because they thought fighting served more purpose than talking.

look up the definition for soldier
'an enlisted man or woman who serves in an army;'

Nothing about being a hero, just a tool of death.

Also, lose the attitude. It serves you no favours. Keep things civil.