Dota 2's automated mute system - Valve's most prominent stuff up

[Scott Rothman]

I mean, I have copped a 24h mute for being a vocal and enthusiastic member of my team, i'll fully admit and own up to that, but the fact that you can report the opposition just makes no sense.

I do think there are instances in which reporting the other team is beneficial, I just wish Valve would take the couple of minutes to review chat logs or audio logs of the game before just dropping the hammer. Granted, it's still in "beta" so you never know what might become of the system.

 

[Scott Rothman]

I don't get why anyone would want to play this game, it sounds like a giant douche bag magnet. All I see are the players trying to have fun getting shat on by other players... and now even the game itself.

It's definitely a better experience playing with friends, but if you end up with even one or two solid people on you're team, it can be a blast. I've found the less you play All Pick, the better.

 

[ItsNotRudy]

True that, been playing dota for 8 years now and i play some league now and then. But how the fuck is this game out 3 years and there is still no fuckin pause and the client is so shitty.

And the reporting stuff doesn't really happen when you get some "ELO". People just don't care

F8 is pause

It's technically in beta, but what's wrong with the client???

LoL is not in beta, that ended in like 2010?
And their client is a flash-based mess really. It's what I've always disliked about it. It takes a huge amount of resources, but you can't even use it to change your hotkeys or resolution or anything. You have to waste game time doing that. Also dislike how it becomes unusable once a game launches. But then again Dota2s isnt perfect, pages don't fully load sometimes and refreshing one takes quite a while.

And Riot never balances its champs at all. Oh wait... they do every two weeks. Some champs get buffed, some get nerfed, some get an overhaul when its clear the game left them behind. Some take longer than others.

I feel like when they do, it's not substantial. It took them about 4-5 nerfs to get Irelia to a place where she fits comfortably into the game without pubstomping everyone and their mother. There's not a lot of testing that goes into anything. When your playerbase abuses the new Evelynn and Deathfire Grasp to deal 80% life damage or abuses the new Black Cleaver to deal 1.1k damage with only 2 of them on Riven Q, then I'd say you overlooked some very simple things. And on the other end of the spectrum they have made certain champs underpowered or useless for quite a while (Eve, Karma arguably)

No, I would say it comes from the team that worked on DOTA, and realized that being killed without ever knowing what killed you isn't fun for anyone. Dodge was removed because a RNG shouldn't determine the outcome of a fight. Perhaps Riot wanted a game where you can't be chain-stunned to death.

But you can still be chain-cc-ed. Yesterday I was in a team with Amumu, Blitz, Kat, Twitch (me) and Xin Zhao. They were CC-ed for so long they didn't stand a chance when we grouped up. Isn't that anti-fun then? I have not seen the phenomenon of being killed without seeing what killed you ever. Well, invisible Nidalee spears and Nunu ults aside from bugged bushes mechanic. Gotta love taking 1000+ to the face without seeing how.

You can use pseudo-random to deal with these things, this is how Dota works also. I know that's not how League did it and that you could dodge 5 times in a row. That was stupid, but their own flawed random system. 20% Dodge pseudo-random would just mean that in set clusters you would dodge the appropriate amount. For example. So technically dodge would be 20% Defense against orbless physical auto-attacks. In Dota, attacks with attack modifiers (frost, burn, slow) bypass the conventional rules of auto-attacks in regards to tower aggro and dodge.

Cluster 1: | Hit | Hit | Dodge | Hit | Hit |
Cluster 2: | Hit | Dodge | Hit | Hit | Hit |
Cluster 3: | Hit | Hit | Hit | Hit | Dodge |
Cluster 4: | Dodge | Hit | Hit | Hit | Hit |

The only chance of a chain would max up to 2 times (which is consistent with Spirit Breakers passive stun on-hit) because of clusters chaining conveniently.

According to Pendragon, only 2% of all players ever end up in the Tribunal, and the last few times someone made a thread on the forums complaining about it, Pendragon was nice enough to show their history in response. For one guy he did this

I'm not really sure about Riot's statistics. In-game they show these tidbits, such as "13% of all games where people curse at a teammate, are lost" I'm like okay, you filtered every single game with a curseword and analyzed that all these games were lost because of cursing and not the people causing the cursing doing stupid stuff? It's nonsense really and they have effectively lost all credibility when it comes to stats for as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Schmeiser]

True that, been playing dota for 8 years now and i play some league now and then. But how the fuck is this game out 3 years and there is still no fuckin pause and the client is so shitty.

And the reporting stuff doesn't really happen when you get some "ELO". People just don't care

F8 is pause

It's technically in beta, but what's wrong with the client???

Also what the heck is SMITE?

So why then whenever i get a DC or anyone else for that matter the game never pauses and never waits for me to reconnect? I've never seen a pause in any games ever in LOL and i work at lan caffe so i see a shit ton of LOL here. The client is just so messy, it's super laggy for me and for some reason alt tabbing from LOL for me takes a whole minute almost. My pc works perfectly for all the other games.

As for the lol vs dota debate, i'm a dota veteran that quit like half a year ago(got bored of the tryharding in dota 2 and the same 20 picks over and over) Playin lol like a year, it's a lot simpler game than dota it really is. Not that im bashing the game it's a lot of fun atleast for the moment but you can't even do 25% of the stuff you can do in dota.

And yes the LOL devs did talk about dota being anti fun because somehow in dota you don't know what killed you even tho that's the biggest lie i read about dota in the last 2 years. What's even dumber they used invoker as an example when only 1 of his skills is maybe hard to figure out on the first try.

 

[Dandark]

As a LoL player who thinks the tribunal is a pretty good system and works well most of the time, that DOTA system you jst described sounds horrible.

The tribunal works pretty well, you need to be reported a lot in many different games before you even have a chance of getting into the Tribunal. People will make threads about how unfairly banned they were and post their reform cards showing some of their games, most people who respond will agree that they deserved to be banned.

And there's strictly NO LAUGH BAITING. THE FUCK? That's such a good strat for such a volatile community.

"FUCK THIS TWISTED FATE IS LAUGHING AT ME! RAAGHHH!"

*stunned under tower*

"FUCKING GOLD CARD OP RRAAGH"

Twisted fate is okay for laugh baiting but nobody beats a Malzahar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAqisnaGV6M
Just try and dive me. Do it.
DO IT!

 

[ResonanceSD]

And yes the LOL devs did talk about dota being anti fun because somehow in dota you don't know what killed you even tho that's the biggest lie i read about dota in the last 2 years. What's even dumber they used invoker as an example when only 1 of his skills is maybe hard to figure out on the first try.

The fuck is this "anti fun" bullshit? If you don't know what killed you in dota, there's a giant screen that you can pop up which tells you exactly what the fuck killed you.

 

[Ryank1908]

I just don't understand why anyone would play DotA 2. Loved the first game, but I loved it 10 years or so ago, now. You can't take a 10 year old mod and not update the way it plays, because then it feels like a 10 year old mod. And it does. DotA 2 feels like shit and hasn't been cleaned up. It's just the old guard playing with their old friends, which is fine, but that's not the kind of practice I expect from Valve.

 

[ItsNotRudy]

Yes, Brofist is FUNNY on Ezreal. I dunno about RoA though... That's fallen out of favour so hard and has been for some time. I only ever build it on Diana and even then because i'm not 100% sure how to build her and RoA is a very safe first item. Warmog's is a bit iffy now, so is Bloodthirster because rushing Blade of the Ruined King is the new hip thing for the majority of AD Carrys to do because it counters that annoying League of Warmog's that was around a while ago and you do not take Hourglass on every AP ever. You take it on people like TF because teleport > Zhonya's baits are hilarious. People take Quicksilver almost never because GA is almost certainly going to be a better defensive item. I also personally hate Shiv. Also they nerfed Oracles to the floor so it's not viable to buy one super early then just work on not dying the whole game for picture perfect ward coverage. They nerfed League of Druggies now you can only have 5 potions max, mixed opinions on that to say the least.

Your builds look kinda outdated... Just saiyan.

They probably are, I've not played for 5 months or so until yesterday. But my point was (which you are proving by mentioning BotrK comment) that everyone in the same role will build the same thing. There are only limited ways to achieve max damage output. Utility is hardly a factor in LoL because of limited useful item actives. IE and BotrK being instant favorites for any AD carry, simply because they pack the most punch. In Dota, you'll find two carries can build completely different things, same for tanks and such. The items are so specific and different that they will not be a one size fits all deal, where IE, Berserkers and PD are. Just take a quick peek at the following items to see what I mean: http://www.dota2.com/items/ (*Unique Attack Modifiers are the equivalent of Unique Passives in LoL, except UAMs are generally applied, meaning any item with a UAM indication does not stack with another UAM. A hero like Drow Ranger with a built in UAM cannot use UAM items properly. Lifesteal is a UAM in certain cases, making Armor Shred or Lifesteal a choice, not a case of "do I have enough monies to buy ridiculous damage AND lifesteal".

Having a meta is not always a bad thing. You know what is a bad thing? FUCKING VOYBOY SHEEP! "Oh imma go AP MF mid and feed horribly!"

People in LoL are generally more obsessed with streaming pr0s and their behaviour. I don't see this behaviour much or at all on Dota. No names are being thrown around and no odd retarded builds are being used for the sake of seeming pro.

And meta is just... facepalm worthy really. In LoL it means you usually have a stale team setup of support+AD, mage mid and AD tank top. Of course Dota has the same deal, 2-1-2 where the top/bottom lane has one jungler (there is only one jungle side on each map half)

In Dota it doesn't mean this at all. A ranged carry can go against a mage mid, I mean, they can in LoL also, that meta once existed as well and I saw people picking things like Wukong and Lee mid before... but in Dota things like Juggernaut (a template character for Garen and Fiora, he spins, has high regen, an attack modifier and has Fiora ult but less strong)

Riot can't balance. True fact. It keeps things interesting. That League of Cleavers was the biggest oversight i've seen for a while. It's called *The* Black Cleaver instead just Black Cleaver for a reason. It was never supposed to stack but Riot dun goofed.

Goofing up is one thing, but leaving it in for weeks after the majority of the community screams the mistake at you on all possible social media is another.

Oh and does Riot use the term Anti-Fun? I just use that because it makes sense. Yorick is Mr Anti-Fun himself for example. No fun allowed in Yorick's lane, no sir!

I believe they used it in those patch videos more than once. I remember my steady crew I played with had a running gag about that shit.

Yeah the cast ranges are a bit off but i'm one of the Smartcast Master Race so lol w/e scrub.

Same, but some skills even hit slightly inside or outside the max circle it indicates with smartcast.

The one thing about DOTA people seem to not get about DOTA is, yes it is certainly more complex than LoL. However "complex" is not a synonym for "better." People pls, pls. Get that into your heads.

It has a different appeal. I can enjoy both, but I definitely see flaws in LoL that it can improve on by mimicking Dota. They did so with the Flask, Pause function, Spectator view and so on. Still waiting for courier in LoL. It improves game flow so much.

LoL is more casual, but at the same time it wants to appeal to hardcore gamers and have tournaments. I find that however amusing LoL can be, it's competitive appeal is much less. Ganks are less exciting and predictable, there are fewer targets to keep track of and the more complex or unpredictable things are phased out rather than fixed. It takes the easy way out, which is fine for sake of being casual.

If you're willing to accept these things, then any argument about complexity is out the window. The devs keep LoL simple because it's a working formula and doesn't scare new players off. It makes money and shortens the learning curve, giving players a false sense of having mastered the game or being a good player by simply being aware of all the factors that make a successful match.

Well i'm never going to change your mind but you give me a wall of text and I feel compelled to give you a wall of text back :3

It's not really a matter of changing my mind. I can play both with enjoyment, but I prefer Dota after 2-3 years of very frequent LoL. I'm too competitive for LoL, but not good enough to play professionally. Dota fulfills that desire. Normal games are taken quite seriously because there is no difference in Ranked or Normal there. People don't dick around and they expect the same from you, but at the same time after being flamed for picking a bad item on a specific hero, telling or asking what the right path would be has provoked positive responses, helpful ones even, because in the end they cared enough about winning the game that they figured they might as well tell me how to be better.

LoL is just casual fun with friends, and it's core mechanics of last-hitting and (split)pushing are easier when you're used to Dota.

I just don't understand why anyone would play DotA 2. Loved the first game, but I loved it 10 years or so ago, now. You can't take a 10 year old mod and not update the way it plays, because then it feels like a 10 year old mod. And it does. DotA 2 feels like shit and hasn't been cleaned up. It's just the old guard playing with their old friends, which is fine, but that's not the kind of practice I expect from Valve.

Certain technical limitations are now gone, but other than that, yes they intended to be the same, although they're making new heroes and deviating slightly here and there. And there's nothing wrong with that. They're making an old game popular with the masses and more accessible for anyone. It's not just the old crew playing, there's tons of new players or people tired of LoL that play. I know dozens myself that did not play the original.

And yes the LOL devs did talk about dota being anti fun because somehow in dota you don't know what killed you even tho that's the biggest lie i read about dota in the last 2 years. What's even dumber they used invoker as an example when only 1 of his skills is maybe hard to figure out on the first try.

The fuck is this "anti fun" bullshit? If you don't know what killed you in dota, there's a giant screen that you can pop up which tells you exactly what the fuck killed you.

It's nonsense really. LoL has bigger nukes on some of their characters than Dota. I believe Lina ranks highest with 1250 damage nuke (Aghanims* purchased) and the character Veigar can do more than double that when more items are acquired and if the target has AP. Base 800 and +1.2:1 AP rate and 80% enemy AP ratio would cause him to do 1600+ easily. I have played him and reached 800+ AP... instakilling a lot of people with 2k+ damage.

 

[A'tuin]

You have obviously not played enough online games or even observed voting behaviour in real life. Or even navigated around a supermarket. When large groups of people are together or need to decide on something, their behaviour is generally dumber. And yes, there are a lot of idiots on LoL. 'mid or i feed' is a term I've seen thrown around more than I'd like and have seen in Dota, but that's the effect of shifting your audience to lower ages with every patch. 12-year-olds aren't smart in this aspect by any means and will throw tantrums, which by adult measures is deemed idiotic. I've played games with children before, and they will get very angry and upset at times when things don't go their way and stop playing or being counterproductive. They have no place in a team game.

Yes, but those 12-year-olds aren't the ones who have the patience to use the Tribunal since you won't gain any IP by using the Tribunal anymore.

And if you steal the red buff I've been doing for the past 30 secs by myself whilst being a mage or going to go a retarded build in ranked play and then ignore the team, for all intents and purposes you are a dick. But language shouldn't matter, because it is filtered and if you were truly offended by it, you'd filter it out. Or rather not untick it forcefully.

Okay, I agree that it's childish to report someone if he calls you a dick once. Here's the point: most people think the same way, and thus calling someone a dick won't get you banned.

But context means nothing when the users of the Tribunal are merely out for points. I am fairly sure that whilst there are a lot of cases that are either on the edge or close to it, people will still vote punish, because this gets them IP and the majority will look at Game 1, see the player get frustrated over something and punish him.

The IP bonus was totally removed so people wouldn't make bad decisions "merely out for points".

Yes, the same system exists in Dota2 where you can give ribbons for Leadership, Friendliness, Helpful and so on. It's deemed fairly useless and barely anyone asks for +commend as I see "HONOR ME" pop up in every other League game from several corners. It really doesn't add anything to the game if it's not counted in Matchmaking.

This is where we think differently. I think it adds something to the game: it feels nice to reward other players for playing politely and I like being rewarded, even if there's no material gain. I haven't seen that many "honur me pls"-messages in LoL, mainly because it doesn't work.

 

[ResonanceSD]

It's nonsense really. LoL has bigger nukes on some of their characters than Dota. I believe Lina ranks highest with 1250 damage nuke (Aghanims* purchased) and the character Veigar can do more than double that when more items are acquired and if the target has AP. Base 800 and +1.2:1 AP rate and 80% enemy AP ratio would cause him to do 1600+ easily. I have played him and reached 800+ AP... instakilling a lot of people with 2k+ damage.

I have no idea what any of this means or why BIGGA NUMBAHS LOLOL appeals to anyone mature.

 

[ItsNotRudy]

Okay, I agree that it's childish to report someone if he calls you a dick once. Here's the point: most people think the same way, and thus calling someone a dick won't get you banned.

Yes, but in my chat I would have to explain why I called them a dick. In my communication to this person, I wouldnt directly say "Oh wow you're such a dick for taking the red buff that I have been fighting by myself"

I would merely say "fuck off zyra" or something of the sort.

 

[teebeeohh]

i never had this problem but i am also usually incredibly nice and never gloat when i do really well.
the worst thing that ever happened to me was one guy freaking out over me apparently highjacking (i even apologized in case he was right) the courier and he then made it his mission to hide every single item i put on that thing in the jungle. i then proceeded to force stuff him into the other team.

i also frequently get messages that people i reported got the almighty valve boot.

 

[ItsNotRudy]

It's nonsense really. LoL has bigger nukes on some of their characters than Dota. I believe Lina ranks highest with 1250 damage nuke (Aghanims* purchased) and the character Veigar can do more than double that when more items are acquired and if the target has AP. Base 800 and +1.2:1 AP rate and 80% enemy AP ratio would cause him to do 1600+ easily. I have played him and reached 800+ AP... instakilling a lot of people with 2k+ damage.

I have no idea what any of this means or why BIGGA NUMBAHS LOLOL appeals to anyone mature.

I'm merely pointing out that LoL has a much higher ratio of "wtf killed me" having generally bigger single use nukes" due to skills scaling with AP (ridiculously so some times) whereas Dota skills 95% of the time don't scale with anything.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

Actually I think Valve's biggest screw up was introducing hats to TF2, but... damn, I don't even PLAY DOTA and I can see why this is a horible idea.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

I just don't understand why anyone would play DotA 2. Loved the first game, but I loved it 10 years or so ago, now. You can't take a 10 year old mod and not update the way it plays, because then it feels like a 10 year old mod. And it does. DotA 2 feels like shit and hasn't been cleaned up. It's just the old guard playing with their old friends, which is fine, but that's not the kind of practice I expect from Valve.

That's not true at all. I've never played the original Dota, I know that lots haven't. I've tried Dota 2 and LoL, and Dota feels much more refined and smooth. Why do you say it feels like shit?

 

[Vivi22]

I only ask because this wouldn't be the first time I've seen gamers flip out about something they didn't really understand and try to stir up a shit storm where there really isn't one.

Thank you for your insult, one thing that I can confirm about the Escapist is that forum reports do get looked at by regular people.


http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11750&d=1355749719

Here you go.

I asked an honest question and directed no insult towards you. If you reported my post than so be it, that is your right. I wouldn't count on anything happening though since I was quite clear I was only asking for corroboration before jumping on a bandwagon by assuming there was a problem where none may have actually existed. It happens frequently on the internet in general and even on this forum. There was no insult there, and there was certainly no insult directed towards you. I'd recommend growing a thicker skin if what I said bothered you because I honestly find the notion that you found my post report worthy absolutely hilarious.

EDIT: As a bit of an aside, I just want to add that your reaction to a post where I never insulted you doesn't exactly make you seem more credible in my eyes. If you respond to a genuine request for information as though it was an insult how can I take your account alone seriously in the least?

As for your link, care to provide something that doesn't require everyone to make an account on that forum, actually own DOTA2, and log in with their Steam account in order to view it?

 

[Ryank1908]

I just don't understand why anyone would play DotA 2. Loved the first game, but I loved it 10 years or so ago, now. You can't take a 10 year old mod and not update the way it plays, because then it feels like a 10 year old mod. And it does. DotA 2 feels like shit and hasn't been cleaned up. It's just the old guard playing with their old friends, which is fine, but that's not the kind of practice I expect from Valve.

That's not true at all. I've never played the original Dota, I know that lots haven't. I've tried Dota 2 and LoL, and Dota feels much more refined and smooth. Why do you say it feels like shit?

In Warcraft 3, compared to modern game engines, your units were a fair bit more noticably linked to the terrain, and the animations were considerably less smooth, and you have considerably less control over your units. That's not a gripe, as such - Warcraft 3 is one of my favourite games of all time, but it's old, now, and I'm used to playing with engines that are a lot smoother, like SC2, and LoL.

I appreciate that DotA2 is trying to emulate the first game in almost all ways, but to me it feels so, so much more clunky. The art style is also, to me, obscures what's actually going on, so I can never actually tell what killed me. I also cannot fathom how you think DotA is smoother than LoL. I mean I respect your opinion, I just don't personally understand it.

 

[ResonanceSD]

As for your link, care to provide something that doesn't require everyone to make an account on that forum, actually own DOTA2, and log in with their Steam account in order to view it?

Well no, because having those credentials might actually make you qualified to talk about the issue in this thread.

It's the official Dota 2 developer forums, just by the by.

 

[Excludos]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409863

11 page thread filled with complaints from people getting muted without having actually done anything. As long as you can get muted by 4 russians on the other team because "lol cyka", the system is broken.

It actually worked a lot better before the mute thing started... Who's brilliant idea was it anyways to insert a system into a team game dependent on communication, where you STOP the communication?! If someone really is bothering you, the mute button has always been there.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

I just don't understand why anyone would play DotA 2. Loved the first game, but I loved it 10 years or so ago, now. You can't take a 10 year old mod and not update the way it plays, because then it feels like a 10 year old mod. And it does. DotA 2 feels like shit and hasn't been cleaned up. It's just the old guard playing with their old friends, which is fine, but that's not the kind of practice I expect from Valve.

That's not true at all. I've never played the original Dota, I know that lots haven't. I've tried Dota 2 and LoL, and Dota feels much more refined and smooth. Why do you say it feels like shit?

In Warcraft 3, compared to modern game engines, your units were a fair bit more noticably linked to the terrain, and the animations were considerably less smooth, and you have considerably less control over your units. That's not a gripe, as such - Warcraft 3 is one of my favourite games of all time, but it's old, now, and I'm used to playing with engines that are a lot smoother, like SC2, and LoL.

I appreciate that DotA2 is trying to emulate the first game in almost all ways, but to me it feels so, so much more clunky. The art style is also, to me, obscures what's actually going on, so I can never actually tell what killed me. I also cannot fathom how you think DotA is smoother than LoL. I mean I respect your opinion, I just don't personally understand it.

Well for one, I like the turn animations (I think that's what you're talking about). It makes the game feel more natural and the movement feels less jerky, plus there's a bigger penalty for turning around to attack/cast an ability while running away. No turning animation feels very unnatural to me now. I didn't like it at first, but it grew on me as I played.

As for the artstyle, I have the complete opposite. I have no damn idea what's going on in teamfights whenever I play LoL, and the all the skins that break their characters theme are distracting. All the cosmetics in dota at least stay in the theme of the character, there's nothing like iBlitzcrank or his car skin. In a Dota team fight, I can tell what's going on, and I always know what's killed me, and most of the abilities match the characters colour scheme (Witch doctor spells are purple, Warlocks are red, Elder Titan's are teal, so on). Also if you didn't know, there's a window you can pop up that will tell you what did damage to you and how much.