DOTA2 or LoL?
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This is rather silly. Yes there are several situations in which snowballing gets out of control very VERY quickly.(I'm looking at you riven) But this SHOULD be resolved through teamwork, aka either a roaming mid or jungler. Sometimes both.Larcenist said:
As for the brutalizer? You are kidding right? It's a good first item but claiming that it's a mad rush for it is just wrong. 25ad 10% cdr 10 armor pen? It would be cheaper to buy a chain vest and a ruby crystal, and far more effective up to the end of the mid game. The cleaver would be stronger late game. I'm going to take your comments about the snowball lane and bin them because if you're seeing many of those items I sincerely doubt you've even hit 30 yet. Words of wisdom, buy a cloth armor at the very least if they rush a brutalizer.
The story is more developed in LoL, that's true. But I've never particularly cared about it. I've never read a hero background all the way through in DotA. I guess it's some measure of success that I know Caitlyn is the Sheriff of Piltdown and that Vi is like her Baba Looey sidekick.
I'm not sure I agree with that snowballing is more prevalent in LoL than in DotA. A carry fed lots of early kills in a DotA game will shit-stomp a team 1v5. I still feel like something about the way abilities scale or items or something, it keeps LoL carries from being able to stomp whole teams by themselves. I mean, they'll get penta's if their tanks initiate and their supports support them and some teammates lay down some CC. But you don't see Draven running at 5 people and killing them all by himself, and oldschool hyper carries like Kayle and Jax got their carrying power nerfed and their early game buffed to make them more normal.
I'm not sure I agree with that snowballing is more prevalent in LoL than in DotA. A carry fed lots of early kills in a DotA game will shit-stomp a team 1v5. I still feel like something about the way abilities scale or items or something, it keeps LoL carries from being able to stomp whole teams by themselves. I mean, they'll get penta's if their tanks initiate and their supports support them and some teammates lay down some CC. But you don't see Draven running at 5 people and killing them all by himself, and oldschool hyper carries like Kayle and Jax got their carrying power nerfed and their early game buffed to make them more normal.
About the toons itself, yeah LoL has more lore, but DotA has in game interactions between specific heroes with special lines said and better voiceover in general giving them more presonality 
The lore in dota is indeed totally forgettable.
- Dota controls are super responsive (depending on your lag), and yeah... they might not be the easiest as you will need at least 15 or so hotkeys to do all you should be doing on any hero. The main difference on responsivenss tough is that DotA heroes acutally have turn rates, LoL heroes insta turn, both are design choices and i think one of those makes the game dumber.
- You can carry the game as support, or ganker, it's just different. If you are a carry you need a non totally bad team to give you 20 mins or so and get farmed, without that you should lose (unless the other team is terrible), if you are a support/tempo controller/ganker you need to give your carry 20 mins or so to get fat and trust he is not retarded. I have a 75% or so winrate with supports like KotL, Witch Doctor and Rubic because I know quite well how to be very protective of my carry with those and also which carry fits each of those supports, if the lose after that... well, the carry player was super bad, nothing to do and just GG.
The lore in dota is indeed totally forgettable.
Just as notes:Tenmar said:
- Dota controls are super responsive (depending on your lag), and yeah... they might not be the easiest as you will need at least 15 or so hotkeys to do all you should be doing on any hero. The main difference on responsivenss tough is that DotA heroes acutally have turn rates, LoL heroes insta turn, both are design choices and i think one of those makes the game dumber.
- You can carry the game as support, or ganker, it's just different. If you are a carry you need a non totally bad team to give you 20 mins or so and get farmed, without that you should lose (unless the other team is terrible), if you are a support/tempo controller/ganker you need to give your carry 20 mins or so to get fat and trust he is not retarded. I have a 75% or so winrate with supports like KotL, Witch Doctor and Rubic because I know quite well how to be very protective of my carry with those and also which carry fits each of those supports, if the lose after that... well, the carry player was super bad, nothing to do and just GG.
A mechanically dated remake of a mechanically dated genre starter that offers "meh" payoff for the burden of knowledge it puts on you...
Or a game that cherry-picks only the fun elements of the said genre for a game with a little less depth, but a much better depth to complexity ratio...
Oh and let's not forget that LoL is constantly evolving, while DotA is pretty much still all about 5-10 second hard disables.
Or a game that cherry-picks only the fun elements of the said genre for a game with a little less depth, but a much better depth to complexity ratio...
Oh and let's not forget that LoL is constantly evolving, while DotA is pretty much still all about 5-10 second hard disables.
-Not counting the skill keys, you need at most 3 or 4 extra hot keys to manage active items and TP scrolls, the A key to deny and the S key to last hit efficiently. Everything else is salad dressing and only micro-intensive units like Meepo or Broodmother REALLY need anything extra.Tanakh said:
-A Support can only carry the game if the enemy team is INCREDIBLY bad and the match ends before the enemy carry gets anything. The main thing about Supports is that they are generally the heavy hitters early game, still good mid game and drop off HARD in the late game besides being walking disables and extra burst damage. That's so they can support the Carry properly until they are self-sufficient (To a point). A Carry, by definition, is a hero who starts out mediocre and only gets better with more gold and levels. Supporting the Carry so they can carry doesn't mean you were the real carry, you were just a little extra backbone to keep the Carry functioning.
You're right that a blind pick game snow balls hard and quickly. You're wrong in believing this means the game is over and everyone should go home and surrender. The problem really isn't the snowball, it's how players react to it. /ff top is 3/0 and ours has 50 cs at minute 20. Their top laner has a massive advantage in team fights, and you'll probably lose 9/10 of them. But this is a blind pick game like you said, and people throw leads like they're practicing for the shot put event at the olympics.Larcenist said:
Buying a couple wards(no matter what your position was)and warding up your jungle will likely net you a couple kills on over extenders. Also I sincerely do not understand the hate that the brutalizer is recieving even after being over nerfed.
Well, you can get away without having a single keybind, but that's far from ideal. IMO the very basic ones would be:Triforceformer said:
- 4 for skills (might be 2, might be 6, lets just say 4)
- 6 for items (you can get away with 4, anything less is a terrible idea because passive items are usually weaker than active ones)
- Your classic stop and attack keys (hold and move are also useful, but can live without em)
- The hero select key (a neccesity always because it's what you doubletap to center the camera on it after roaming the camera with your mouse)
- The quickbuy key and quickbuy TP scroll (to not lose gold like a noob when dying)
- Shift (to shift queue stuff)
- Pause
That's more than 15, all of them super basic and playing without any of them is a very bad idea. I also like my courier select key, the shop select key, the courier send key, the fast courier key, the chatweel key, the control group for my creeps, the select all units key, the console key, the levelup key, and some for scripts (to say "miss top" and shit, nothing gamechanging), maybe i am forgetting one or two.
Again, you can play without any of this and just clicking everything with the mouse, but... why be worse than what we already are?
As for the carry part, if you read the context of that post I was answering to a guy that said that carry was the best way to win solo queues, that is totally BS and was using the word "carry" as taking your team to victory; I have won a lot of games as a support by doing my freaking job and feeding my carry easy gold even when they are way worse than the other team carry and have lost games where I am the highest GPM by far on a hardcarry with better items just because my team is just doing stupid choices.
It is my opinion that support decides the mayority of games, and the higher the skill of the match the more i have seen this.
-Like I said, Skill keybindings don't really count. They're basic controls, and it's like saying Right-Clicking to move is a function to keep track of.Tanakh said:
-3 convenient keys for active items, one for TPs and two other less convenient ones for anything else. Works perfectly fine for me because what hero's going to have 6 active times that need constant attention?
-Mentioned those cause Denies and Last Hit efficiency wooo.
-I guess so, but it's just as easy to click on your portrait or click the minimap back to your position, which you would keep track of because micromanagment hooooo. Not necessarily a "Required" hot key.
-Drag the items to the little quick-buy window and right-click.
-That's like saying "You HAVE to keep track of the start button on a 360 controller in case you need to pee." It's just utility which has little function in the actual game unless someone goes to pee.
Yes things like the courier keys and quick chat are nice, but they are less than necessary to play properly. I usually go through the courier UI interface out of habit and you at most lose half a second on it, especially with the new Haste button. The most anyone really uses the wheel for is missing calls and calling back, both of which can be done rapidly by hand without much distraction. Nice convenience, but not necessary.
Again about the Carry thing, I get your point now but the wording is still misleading. A Support legitimately carrying the game only and not just Supporting so well the Carry is fed to his core in half the time only happens if the other team is so terrible that they cannot farm anything at all against yours. Either because of skill difference or terrible team composition. Like you said, you did your job as the Support and let your Carry farm enough so they could, as their role is set, lead the team to victory with their right clicks. Supports still taper off HARD if the enemy team remains anywhere near the same level range. It's not "Opinion" that having a support or two increases your chance of winning, that's proven fact and exactly what the meta is based around.
To change the topic a bit, the original misconception regarding solo carries might originate from the trend in pubs where, more often than not, someone will insta-pick Drow regardless of team composition and generally shit on the enemy team after getting Frost Arrows and her ulti. Because a lot of people just can't handle her, as she comes online as a major threat far faster than other right click carries and your only real chances to contain her are early ganks, which can end up failing end make her snowball harder. Really makes a guy wish for a remake.
Well, technically you don't need any keybind, can play clicking everything, but why gimp yourself? If you can do something in .2 or .3 secs pressing your key for your hero, why take .4 to .6? Especially if you are going to do that hundreds of times in game. If you can micro with the mouse while buying shit and trying not to die, why abandon your hero to buy that stuff?Triforceformer said:
About the active items, thinker will have 6 active items that will need to be pressed a lot, invoker also has 3-4 core items that need to be pushed, same as pudge or puck and almost all the support good items are also activated, actually i would be hard pressed to think a single amazing support upgraded item that is passive.... humm... nop. Actually that is a good way to check how good is your support, if they have 2 or more passive items they are bad or just don't give a shit at supporting.
There's plenty of disables that exceed the 2 second window in DotA, same duration in LoL is usually a result of a full ability rotation on a dedicated character, or a team effort.Devoneaux said:
Burden of Knowledge is an actual concept that's taken into account when designing games, and it's pretty high in both of the games in question(though LoL dose a better job of communicating/teaching stuff on the fly).
And honestly, DotA 2 is nearly a carbon copy of the old one. There's no way in a million years you'll convince anyone it's evolving in any direction other than it's graphics. LoL on the other hand had, as you mentioned, Riot shaking things up once it grew truly stale.
I used to play League of Legends, and I still think it's a quality game, but recently I've quit entirely to play DotA 2. DotA 2 is somewhat harder, but it has a fantastic community, the game is much better built (it has less bugs and broken parts and it's still in beta) the metagame (which heroes are popular, which strategies are dominant and which items you should buy) are much more fluid and it's overall a much more polished game. League is fun but it's a money vaccum and is ultimately very tiring after a while.
I know you think you're really funny but HoN is always a bad joke, which is the game you're talking about. I can name one strategy that works for League, 1 top, 1 mid, 2 bot, 1 jungler and close to half a dozen that work for DotA, including double jungle, safe/mid lane triple roam comp, offensive trilane, defensive trilane, dual mid, 2/1/2, and a constantly evolving hero usage. For example, Tiny was originally a tank who then became a safe lane support, then becoming a midlane ganker, and is now a top tier carry. Not to mention that unless you really want to go pro, which you won't, your "burden of knowledge" (aka, riot thinks you're dumb and can't do math) won't matter. The mechanics you know in league are practically the same as they are in DotA, save one notable mechanic, denying, which isn't that hard to deal with after five or so games.Naqel said:
I agree in the sense that I've argued earlier in this thread something similar: DotA is way more about hard CC, and there is much longer Hard CC in DotA and there is more of it.Naqel said:
The 5-10 second example is a little extreme for one character. I think the only character who has crazy CC like that would be Rhasta, who can potentially put someone down for 8.25 seconds with a hex/shackle combo, but that's multiple skills used in tandem. Lion is 6.52 seconds if he milks the Impale/hex combo perfectly. Most other dedicated disablers (Enigma, ES, etc) are like 4-5 seconds with their full combo. Someone else mentioned Mirana, which is essentially Ashe's arrow.
Now, a team that stacks AoE CC might be able to do 10 seconds of disable. Magnus blinks in, reverse polarity, Enigma times his black hole perfectly, and then ES comes in for the coup de grace. Mmmmm, That's a lot of CC, and totally impossible by design in LoL.
I don't disagree with this. One of Riot's design philosophies was that if you see a character or see a skill, you should know what it's doing immediately. This isn't really the case for DotA. Their famous example is Blood Seeker rupture, but there's plenty of other good ones (Ancient Apparition Cold Feet, for example).Naqel said:
I think this is why people are tempted to say that DotA is more complex.
This I do disagree here, because I think you're offering a false argument.Naqel said:
DotA 2 is a copy of Dota Allstars for WC3, but to say that means it isn't evolving is false. DotA was patched about as often as League of Legends is now, new characters are added, though not as frequently (LoL adds new characters at a pretty break neck pace), and balance is always being tweaked.
There have been different metas, for instance DotA used to be more cs/farm heavy than it is now. Characters get remade. Etc, etc, etc.
Riot "shakes" things up in the exact same way IceFrog was doing with DotA, i.e., new characters, new items, balance tweaks and reworks.