DOTA2 or LoL?

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Carnagath

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blazearmoru said:
What I meant is not that comebacks in Dota are impossible, just that they are harder than in LoL. I don't know enough to go into detailed math about this, but from my experience pretty much every champion in Dota can snowball so hard if you make mistakes against them, that you pretty much can't return in lane. It also doesnt help that towers are much weaker than in LoL, so most champions that are fed can solodive you in the midgame and kill you within 5 seconds without danger. That is usually impossible in LoL, when disables last 1-1.5 seconds max and the tower chunks at least half of your HP during a fast dive, regardless of how fed you are. Hell, I've even had fed Snipers 100-0 me within 2 seconds from massive range without even taking a tower hit. Again, there is no way to do that in LoL, so you can attempt to play defensively and farm after making a mistake and come back. As for your comment about disables, I usually play carry so I get focused. There's nothing I can do about it. I've resorted to only playing Clinkz lately, so that I can at least stealth before teamfights and only engage after several seconds, and only when the cd of my stealth is almost up again.
 

blazearmoru

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Carnagath said:
blazearmoru said:
What I meant is not that comebacks in Dota are impossible, just that they are harder than in LoL. I don't know enough to go into detailed math about this, but from my experience pretty much every champion in Dota can snowball so hard if you make mistakes against them, that you pretty much can't return in lane. It also doesnt help that towers are much weaker than in LoL, so most champions that are fed can solodive you in the midgame and kill you within 5 seconds without danger. That is usually impossible in LoL, when disables last 1-1.5 seconds max and the tower chunks at least half of your HP during a fast dive, regardless of how fed you are. Hell, I've even had fed Snipers 100-0 me within 2 seconds from massive range without even taking a tower hit. Again, there is no way to do that in LoL, so you can attempt to play defensively and farm after making a mistake and come back. As for your comment about disables, I usually play carry so I get focused. There's nothing I can do about it. I've resorted to only playing Clinkz lately, so that I can at least stealth before teamfights and only engage after several seconds, and only when the cd of my stealth is almost up again.
Are you sure you're not in a horrible skill bracket equiv to elo hell? DotA has a skill bracket where everyone picks a AD carry so whoever snowballs first wins. You might be in that...

Also your experience seems to not remember how AP does not scale. There are a lot of complaints from the LoL community about how AP DotA heroes are garbage because they don't scale and become useless cus they can't do a billion damage even if you get fed. You may wana talk to them.

Yes DotA punishes mistakes more harshly, but it's the same for both teams so it promotes cowardly play. Now here's the kicker. An AP hero watching an AD carry farm. Every second that passes, the AP is getting weaker in comparison to the AD. How safe can you play?
 

Carnagath

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blazearmoru said:
Carnagath said:
blazearmoru said:
What I meant is not that comebacks in Dota are impossible, just that they are harder than in LoL. I don't know enough to go into detailed math about this, but from my experience pretty much every champion in Dota can snowball so hard if you make mistakes against them, that you pretty much can't return in lane. It also doesnt help that towers are much weaker than in LoL, so most champions that are fed can solodive you in the midgame and kill you within 5 seconds without danger. That is usually impossible in LoL, when disables last 1-1.5 seconds max and the tower chunks at least half of your HP during a fast dive, regardless of how fed you are. Hell, I've even had fed Snipers 100-0 me within 2 seconds from massive range without even taking a tower hit. Again, there is no way to do that in LoL, so you can attempt to play defensively and farm after making a mistake and come back. As for your comment about disables, I usually play carry so I get focused. There's nothing I can do about it. I've resorted to only playing Clinkz lately, so that I can at least stealth before teamfights and only engage after several seconds, and only when the cd of my stealth is almost up again.
Are you sure you're not in a horrible skill bracket equiv to elo hell? DotA has a skill bracket where everyone picks a AD carry so whoever snowballs first wins. You might be in that...
I certainly am, since I have not played hundreds of games :p But no, I don't see everyone picking carry, I just usually lane mid against another carry.
 

blazearmoru

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Carnagath said:
I certainly am, since I have not played hundreds of games :p But no, I don't see everyone picking carry, I just usually lane mid against another carry.
That explains it. Slightly below the everyone picks a carry stage is everyone picks a random dude that looks cool stage... You're in that one arn't you? =.=;

Comebacks will start to pick up when people actually pick AP heroes and have some decent idea on what they're doing. An AP hero that knows what they're doing will usually beat an AD hero that knows what they're doing if they're laning against each other without external influences until gold is distributed. By the way, the external influences are usually AP heroes.

One thing you can try is to pick pudge, go mid, sit until you're lv 7 then go to enemy jungle and wait. Hook them from under their tower into the jungle, bite, and they die (usually). It helps if you ward behind the tower for increased vision.
 

Carnagath

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blazearmoru said:
Carnagath said:
I certainly am, since I have not played hundreds of games :p But no, I don't see everyone picking carry, I just usually lane mid against another carry.
That explains it. Slightly below the everyone picks a carry stage is everyone picks a random dude that looks cool stage... You're in that one arn't you? =.=;

Comebacks will start to pick up when people actually pick AP heroes and have some decent idea on what they're doing. An AP hero that knows what they're doing will usually beat an AD hero that knows what they're doing if they're laning against each other without external influences until gold is distributed. By the way, the external influences are usually AP heroes.
Yup, I've experienced first-hand with my Clinkz just how strong casters are early on. At first I fed mercilessly, but recently I play very defensively against them, rush orchid malevolence and basically fuck off the lane as soon as possible to gank. It seems to be going much better this way.

P.S: I find it entertaining that Dota has carries with "assassin kits", in LoL terms. That is awesome.
 

blazearmoru

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Carnagath said:
Yup, I've experienced first-hand with my Clinkz just how strong casters are early on. At first I fed mercilessly, but recently I play very defensively against them, rush orchid malevolence and basically fuck off the lane as soon as possible to gank. It seems to be going much better this way.
That sounds very much like a comeback to me. :/
You're completely incapable of dealing with casters in the beginning. They pretty much have free reign over everything. Come Orchid, they all die. If it becomes unbearable, go invisible, wait for cooldown, fire arrow, and re-invisi until level 6. Get death pact and abandon your tower for the jungle. Your death pact ultimate lets you eat a creep, heals you and buffs you. This means unlimited jungling. Also you can easily gank from the jungle because you're always MIA.
 

Carnagath

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blazearmoru said:
Carnagath said:
Yup, I've experienced first-hand with my Clinkz just how strong casters are early on. At first I fed mercilessly, but recently I play very defensively against them, rush orchid malevolence and basically fuck off the lane as soon as possible to gank. It seems to be going much better this way.
That sounds very much like a comeback to me. :/
You're completely incapable of dealing with casters in the beginning. They pretty much have free reign over everything. Come Orchid, they all die. If it becomes unbearable, go invisible, wait for cooldown, fire arrow, and re-invisi until level 6. Get death pact and abandon your tower for the jungle. Your death pact ultimate lets you eat a creep, heals you and buffs you. This means unlimited jungling.
Well, technically a comeback means that you fed at first, I try not to do that anymore :p As for late game, where mana is practically infinite, he becomes really easy to play. Plus at my bracket, noone bothers with dusts just because of 1 Clinkz for some reason, so I basically get free kills every time I enter a lane, usually double kills if I ping the gank early on -.-
 

blazearmoru

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Carnagath said:
Well, technically a comeback means that you fed at first, I try not to do that anymore :p As for late game, where mana is practically infinite, he becomes really easy to play. Plus at my bracket, noone bothers with dusts just because of 1 Clinkz for some reason, so I basically get free kills every time I enter a lane, usually double kills if I ping the gank early on -.-
I actually, honestly thought that a comeback was when you were disadvantaged and yet win. In this case, you're pretty much powerless and if your lane opponent caster had any competence at all can destroy you if you commit to a fight. Basically, you cannot win against the guy. He can destroy you. Some time passes and then the position even. After some more time, reversed. When at first it was you that was helpless in the face of your caster foe, now it is the caster that is helpless around you. I would just get a blademail though. Clinkz's fire arrows clash with lifesteal.

Have you tried Nyx Assassin? He's really deadly. He's basically a spell caster assassin that can pull of semi carrying if he eats enough because he's agi.

Edit : Because AP heroes are stronger early in the game, they will eat AD heroes. This isn't feeding on the AD's part. Feeding is (or should be classified) when you run in without any hope of winning in the first place. Because AP heroes are stronger, they will get more kills early game naturally but they still don't scale so it doesn't decide the match. Dying only shuts yourself down goldwise, and only AD heroes need gold so basically dying as an AP hero doesn't really hurt you much.
 

chrystallix

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Hmm, I'm not going to say much about game mechanics, most everyone has gone over those things to death, this and that, this is deep, that's not deep, complexity lack of complexity, and those are all valid points. Dota 2 may very well be the better game, it might have better mechanics, more balance, or whatever the hell have you, but I still prefer my LoL.

Why do I do this?

Lore, world, setting, and all that, those mean a lot to me. I love League of Legends to death, it's fun to play, the champions are varied, and despite the "rigid roles" that champions are supposed to fit into, I'll often try really weird things, not even caring if I lose, and there are rather flexible champions. (Kayle for instance) but it's all overshadowed by the world, lore, and characters. I've looked up the heroes for Dota 2, read their lore, and their names and it's all rather short, it's rather...boring. The lore is a bit interesting but it doesn't have as much detail and effort put into it as League of Legends does. There's not as much interesting play going on as the trinity hate force of Urgot, Garen, and Jarvan the IV. There's nothing quite like Mordekaiser's (Huehuehue) heavy metal band Pentakill. There are characters with relationships not outright stated but implied by their lore. For instance Brand and Olaf don't really know each other, but they're from the same place, and what about that new champion Nami? She just so happens to be searching for a moonstone, which hasn't been brought to the meeting place for the first time in forever, and there just so happens to be a champion of the moon prancing about the fields of justice?

I've done a lot of reading up on the various Dota 2 champions, er, heroes, and overall I'm not impressed. They're not completely boring or entirely unoriginal, but their lore is more there just for the sake of having some kind of story. It seems to me, like the effort of just someone going, "Meh, might as well give them some kind of story." While in LoL you have entire cultures being drawn up with characters from each, whether it be the duo of Pantheon and Leona, the former a picture perfect representation of his people and the latter being very rebellious but somehow blessed by the sun they revere. To me LoL just has more interesting characters, sexualized or no.

Then there's the world. Now, I've been able to find out only a little about Dota 2's world lore, and to be fair it was actually pretty interesting. There may be a hell of a lot more regarding it that I haven't found besides the comic and story of the mad moon that makes it a lot richer and provides more details. However, I doubt it can compare to the city states of Valoran, the distant continents that might exist, the impact of the rune wars and the effects they've had on the champions (Like Zilean's chronowhatever) and the alternate worlds the summoners have drawn champions from in an effort to make the League viable so as to save their world from the sure destruction that would come from another terrible rune war between what would almost certainly be Noxus and Demacia...

Not to mention the threats posed by both the Shadow Isles and the terrible nightmares of the Void. While Dota 2 does seem to be a pretty straightforward thing between Radiant and Dire.

So to try and wrap up, my main reason for liking LoL over Dota isn't anything gameplay wise. They're both sound, they're both solid, they've both got their pros and cons. No, my reason for choosing LoL over Dota is the story, the characters, the world, and all those other things. So far...I'm pretty much the only person to mention this...that's probably because I'm wrong though.
 

blazearmoru

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@chrystallix I think you are the only one to mention this because this is a rare position to take. I am a huge fan of story driven games to the point of eventually converting into visual novels. Point being, when I feel like playing a story driven game, I'll get a story driven game. Most people feel the same way I would assume and since the moba isn't a story driven genre, most just don't include it in the reasons. By the way, you're the second that I've seen make that argument.

Now let's see if we have anything in common... Final Fantasy 1,2,4,6,7,8,9,10, Tactics? Xenosaga? Fate Stay Night? Sengoku Rance? Monster Girl Quest? To The Moon? Spec Ops : The Line? Tears to Tiara? Utawarerumono? Kingdom Hearts? Legend of the Dragoon? Ys?

I'm still waiting to start the mass effect and secret of mana,
 

Weaver

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I've put a lot of time (hundreds of hours?) into both games, and I personally have more fun with LoL.
 

Comic Sans

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I don't see the point of plot in the genre. While characters having backstory is fine and all, it all goes out the window as soon as the match starts and you've got best friends cutting each other down, soldiers killing their own royalty, and mortal enemies in the same lane. Plot in a game only matters when it figures into the gameplay, and it couldn't matter any less in LoL. Dota 2 does it the smart way, where the characters have backstories and personality but no overarching plot that falls to pieces as soon as the game starts.
 

JaceArveduin

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chrystallix said:
nd of story. It seems to me, like the effort of just someone going, "Meh, might as well give them some kind of story." While in LoL you have entire cultures being drawn up with characters from each, whether it be the duo of Pantheon and Leona, the former a picture perfect representation of his people and the latter being very rebellious but somehow blessed by the sun they revere.
When did they change Pantheon's lore? I'm fairly sure he had a different lore when he came out..
 

Vigormortis

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Larcenist said:
Your sexuality is apparently a big part of how you play MOBA games, something the League community never fails to inform me of.

One thing I've noticed since I've always been a massive ricer when it comes to MOBA games is that, since most games are balanced from a professional tournament standard (DotA, HoN and LoL alike), DotA offers a lot more items that allow you to fall completely out of control given the enemy team fails to stop you (and no one player can be everywhere at the same time so should your top and mid laners fail to stop an enemy top laner while you're bot for example, you can't really help it). This might be one of the reasons why LoL seems more appealing to new players since there are no items of the same caliber in LoL (short of the top lane which can make or break the game completely).
While this is true, in regards to the items (and only to a certain extent), the thing you must bare in mind is that power-to-gold ratios are different for items in Dota 2 and LoL.

I Dota 2, the more expensive items yield smaller and smaller buffs per each gold you spend on them.* Whereas, in LoL, the more expensive items give more and more buffs per gold spent. As in, the more expensive, late-game items are more power-to-gold efficient. This often leads to a far more pronounced "snow-balling" effect in most LoL games. Something that, generally speaking, isn't nearly as prevalent in Dota 2.

So really, in a way, LoL has the more "game-breaking" items, in so far as the higher your level/gold reservoirs are the more proportional power you can gain. Thus, making it harder and harder for lower-level players to catch up.

To each their own, of course, and I'll never fault someone for preferring the LoL methodology. However, I much prefer the Dota approach as it effectively forces the more successful players to work harder for the bigger rewards. This not only makes skill-and-team-based play more important, but also levels the playing field for all parties involved.

* - For example, an Iron Branch costs 53 gold and gives +1 to all stats. Meanwhile, a Circlet costs 185 gold and gives +2 to all stats. You can see the difference in power/price efficiency. And, this is a trend that progresses from the starting items all the way up to the most expensive late-game items.
 

chrystallix

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Comic Sans said:
I don't see the point of plot in the genre. While characters having backstory is fine and all, it all goes out the window as soon as the match starts and you've got best friends cutting each other down, soldiers killing their own royalty, and mortal enemies in the same lane. Plot in a game only matters when it figures into the gameplay, and it couldn't matter any less in LoL. Dota 2 does it the smart way, where the characters have backstories and personality but no overarching plot that falls to pieces as soon as the game starts.
\

Actually, the Journal of Justice, does provide an actual canonical explanation for how Urgot and Jarvan IV could share a lane together on the Fields of Justice. It's rather entertaining really and just one of the many things I love about LoL's story. The explanation is that while say, a noxian summoner can never bring Garen to a match that would put him against Demacia, if the point of contention doesn't involve Demacia and is say, Freljord and Ionia, then Garen could be summoned alongside, Urgot, Darius, or whoever the hell else the summoners feel like bringing in. They even have an explanation as to how and why the champions keep coming back while dying repeatedly (Short explanation: It only works on the Fields of Justice.)

Edit: Not to mention the lore changing battle between Noxus and Ionia that happened awhile back. Official match, real players, and actually determined the course of the lore. Of course, that's the only one that's happened that I've heard of, but still neat.

blazearmoru said:
@chrystallix I think you are the only one to mention this because this is a rare position to take. I am a huge fan of story driven games to the point of eventually converting into visual novels. Point being, when I feel like playing a story driven game, I'll get a story driven game. Most people feel the same way I would assume and since the moba isn't a story driven genre, most just don't include it in the reasons. By the way, you're the second that I've seen make that argument.

Now let's see if we have anything in common... Final Fantasy 1,2,4,6,7,8,9,10, Tactics? Xenosaga? Fate Stay Night? Sengoku Rance? Monster Girl Quest? To The Moon? Spec Ops : The Line? Tears to Tiara? Utawarerumono? Kingdom Hearts? Legend of the Dragoon? Ys?

I'm still waiting to start the mass effect and secret of mana,
Alright that is a fair point I suppose, I am something of an oddball after all, not going to deny that, still makes a big difference to me. Now, for your games. Final Fantasy 6(or 3), 10, Monster Girl Quest parts 1 and 2 (You perv), Kingdom hearts, and those others I'm afraid not...I never really got many games as a kid I'm afraid. Although every single one of those you list are games I WANT to play someday.
 

buttfucker911

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I don't wanna get into a whole thing here but this basically sums up my feelings on the matter



anyway, peace
 

Aircross

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Vigormortis said:
While this is true, in regards to the items (and only to a certain extent), the thing you must bare in mind is that power-to-gold ratios are different for items in Dota 2 and LoL.

I Dota 2, the more expensive items yield smaller and smaller buffs per each gold you spend on them.* Whereas, in LoL, the more expensive items give more and more buffs per gold spent. As in, the more expensive, late-game items are more power-to-gold efficient. This often leads to a far more pronounced "snow-balling" effect in most LoL games. Something that, generally speaking, isn't nearly as prevalent in Dota 2.

So really, in a way, LoL has the more "game-breaking" items, in so far as the higher your level/gold reservoirs are the more proportional power you can gain. Thus, making it harder and harder for lower-level players to catch up.

To each their own, of course, and I'll never fault someone for preferring the LoL methodology. However, I much prefer the Dota approach as it effectively forces the more successful players to work harder for the bigger rewards. This not only makes skill-and-team-based play more important, but also levels the playing field for all parties involved.

* - For example, an Iron Branch costs 53 gold and gives +1 to all stats. Meanwhile, a Circlet costs 185 gold and gives +2 to all stats. You can see the difference in power/price efficiency. And, this is a trend that progresses from the starting items all the way up to the most expensive late-game items.
There's also the fact that everything scales in LoL. Feed an AP mid 4 kills and they're abilities will be hitting harder, but feed a DotA/Dota 2 mid hero like QoP and her abilities won't be doing anymore damage than it's hard coded to do.

This allows teams in DotA/Dota 2 to turtle until strong early and mid game heroes lose effectiveness (turtling exists in LoL too, but it's not as pronounced due to everything scaling).

buttfucker911 said:
I don't wanna get into a whole thing here but this basically sums up my feelings on the matter



anyway, peace
Invoker, Chen, Phantom Lancer, and Meepo are too "anti-fun," and that's why I love what IceFrog does.
 

Larcenist

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Vigormortis said:
While this is true, in regards to the items (and only to a certain extent), the thing you must bare in mind is that power-to-gold ratios are different for items in Dota 2 and LoL.

I Dota 2, the more expensive items yield smaller and smaller buffs per each gold you spend on them.* Whereas, in LoL, the more expensive items give more and more buffs per gold spent. As in, the more expensive, late-game items are more power-to-gold efficient. This often leads to a far more pronounced "snow-balling" effect in most LoL games. Something that, generally speaking, isn't nearly as prevalent in Dota 2.

So really, in a way, LoL has the more "game-breaking" items, in so far as the higher your level/gold reservoirs are the more proportional power you can gain. Thus, making it harder and harder for lower-level players to catch up.

To each their own, of course, and I'll never fault someone for preferring the LoL methodology. However, I much prefer the Dota approach as it effectively forces the more successful players to work harder for the bigger rewards. This not only makes skill-and-team-based play more important, but also levels the playing field for all parties involved.

* - For example, an Iron Branch costs 53 gold and gives +1 to all stats. Meanwhile, a Circlet costs 185 gold and gives +2 to all stats. You can see the difference in power/price efficiency. And, this is a trend that progresses from the starting items all the way up to the most expensive late-game items.
This is unfortunately way too true with the current state of LoL. Top lane is basically a race to who first gets 1337 gold to buy a brutalizer. The thing with snowballing in LoL is that most of the really powerful snowball items rely on stacks that are halved and such upon death, so any single bad play because of overconfidence can turn the snowballing around (in very specific situations ofcouse).

Though I have to agree DotA has a way better Stat/cost ratio on their items (or at least one that makes more sense), but this might just be because LoL seems to try and keep their items rather simple, and as such there are only almost always a maximum of 2 tiers to a specific item build path.

As for turtling in LoL, it is pretty much all about picking champions that scale better lategame with big items (see Karthus in mid for example) and with that being able to win regardless of how "behind" the team really is in this stage. CLG.EU is a pro LoL team that is rather famous for playing ridicously safe and dragging games to the 50 minute mark, only to completely obliterate their opponents with their amazing late game setups.
 

RivFader86

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I have copies of Dota2 in my steam inv to give away (13 show up but might be a bug and i just have 1) send me a message if you want one

PS: Also have one copy of Nuclear Dawn