Dragon Age 2: RPG Players "don't like change"

Recommended Videos

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
deth2munkies said:
1) OK, so you're saying there is an objectively bad change with no real objectively good change, so objectively, it's a change for the worse. Where's the argument again?

2) BG2 expanded the world, expanded the classes, revamped the entire UI, and gave us an entirely new story. It doesn't have the number of gameplay changes that DA2 had over DA:O, but it was still quite a different game, and a vast improvement everywhere it innovated.

3) I'm not pretending that my own subjective tastes aren't influenced by stuff I like and react poorly (at least at first) to things I perceive as different in a bad way. But I'm not gonna come and spout off like my subjective opinions are fact without either hard evidence or a completely rational argument behind them. In this case, the rational arguments have already been stated by myself and others elsewhere a myriad of times. If you choose not to listen to reason, you are a fool. If you have your own rational arguments for why you think a change is good, by all means, make them. Just don't attempt to hide behind the red herring of "you hate it because it's change" to avoid having to defend what you actually say.
I'm saying there is one objectively poor change, and several subjective changes. Personally, I find the graphics improved, the conversations improved (I did not care for the mute protagonist after Mass Effect), the action improved, the difficulty curve smoother, and the streamlining of inventory functions a welcome improvement over DA:O. What I don't understand is the insistence that all RPGs must follow a very narrow formula to be worthy of merit. Bioware games have been heading in this direction since the change from the Infinity Engine to NWN. It's obvious their focus is on storytelling, not mechanics. These have not been mechanically rich RPGS for almost a decade, and DA:O was no exception.

Your subjective opinions are NOT fact, any more than mine are. As for the "rational arguments" you and "others" have put forward, oh yes there have been a ton. Such as:

"Fish brains please dont be so agressive we at the escapist enjoy our conversations on a mutual understanding of points and views. An embracing of cultures of colours and creed and accepting that to some Dragon Age 2 is a big pile of steaming $$%(&**, whilst to others who dont have much taste... for example those who go to mcdonalds rather then a nice restaurant it is a marvel of modern technology..That said people who only eat Mcdonalds cant really say much about restaurant dining but alas we forgive you."
So yes, you're quite right. Everyone who agrees with you is rational and orderly in their thinking, and everyone who disagrees with you is hiding behind straw men. Why even have a conversation about this at all?
 

Susurrus

New member
Nov 7, 2008
603
0
0
BloatedGuppy said:
Most of the complaints I've seen regarding conversation wheel are suggesting it sees a reduction in RPG elements, and compare it to BG/BG2. Clearly, I'm not alone in feeling that it reduces RPGness. It worked in Mass Effect but I didn't feel it worked in Dragon Age.

In DA:O, the linearity was bad in the deep roads, and largely fine elsewhere. Awakening improved on the linearity of the previous. The linearity in the demo was painful.

From what I could see in the demo, and subsequently confirmed, many spells got cut out because they were useless/redundant etc. Some of the ones I regularly used were cut for this reason. That's an annoyance. I already thought the spell list was low.

Sure, the art style is subjective, I accept that, but it certainly has leanings towards the button-mashing type of console games.

Thank you so much for commenting on my status as 'not a bad person'. I totally build up my own self-esteem entirely based on the opinions of nameless, faceless people.
 

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
Susurrus said:
Most of the complaints I've seen regarding conversation wheel are suggesting it sees a reduction in RPG elements, and compare it to BG/BG2. Clearly, I'm not alone in feeling that it reduces RPGness. It worked in Mass Effect but I didn't feel it worked in Dragon Age.

In DA:O, the linearity was bad in the deep roads, and largely fine elsewhere. Awakening improved on the linearity of the previous. The linearity in the demo was painful.

From what I could see in the demo, and subsequently confirmed, many spells got cut out because they were useless/redundant etc. Some of the ones I regularly used were cut for this reason. That's an annoyance. I already thought the spell list was low.

Sure, the art style is subjective, I accept that, but it certainly has leanings towards the button-mashing type of console games.

Thank you so much for commenting on my status as 'not a bad person'. I totally build up my own self-esteem entirely based on the opinions of nameless, faceless people.
Reduction in RPG elements? What's your definition of RPG? If it's "total freedom of expression", then you're not going to find it here or in any other CRPG, and you're likely going to have to resort to telling erotic stories around the campfire in Goldshire to approach the kind of character building freedom you get in PnP. If it's about picking conversation options you feel best reflect your character, then DA2 is no worse than any Bioware game including its forebearer, and is arguably significantly better than KOTOR or ME with their rigid "Heroic Good Guy" or "Slavering Bastard" options.

What is linearity? DA:O had small maps with defined paths you could travel on. DA2 has small maps with defined paths you can travel on. One is not a sandbox game and the other a shooter on rails. Both have a small amount of flexibility in how you approach certain quest hubs, but one is not notably different than the other in terms of linearity.

Your impression was incorrect. The skill system is not reduced in complexity.

Subjective as hell and now highly leading. Please explain how an art style implies "button mashing".
 
Oct 20, 2010
424
0
0
Xanthious said:
I, unlike the OP, have played DA2 so allow me to rip it to shreds. First and foremost if there was ever, in the history of gaming, a game that was poorly slapped together and rushed out of the studio in the sole attempt to cash in on the success of it's predecessor it's Dragon Age 2. Everything in this game reeks of laziness.

Let's talk about combat and the notion it's "streamlined". Bull shit! It's dumbed down to the point of being damn near a button mashing hack and slash game. Every attack is "press button to make something super awesome" happen. The smart tactics based combat of the first one is thrown out the window in an attempt to dumb down the game to cater to the larger sloping browed console audience.

Next, let's kick a dead horse some, there are the maps. Does anything scream laziness like using the same three (maybe four) maps over and over and over again? This is Bioware, people expect better from them. The person who made that decision deserves to lose their job. That is the kind of thing I would expect from the lowest kind of indy developer not a company like Bioware.

Then there is the decision to have the enemies spawn out of thin air in waves. Really? Really? Compare this, again to the smart tactics driven combat of the first one for a minute and tell me this is anything but an attempt to artificially and needlessly prolong fights.

Now lets talk about items. Oh yeah, items. Laziness rears it's ugly head again rather prominently in this area. Why is the main character the only one I can upgrade to any real degree? The main character is fully customizable but they couldn't be bothered to take the time and apply that to the companion characters as well? Then there is "junk" which reeks of the developer just throwing random shit in to pad out drops more.

Oh and the conversation wheel. I understand that it's made for your typical console gamer and as such having pictures go along with the text can be helpful but for those of us that are literate it's just the same three options for every bloody conversation and it is just boring and repetitive.

For a game that was supposed to a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate it plays and feels more like the love child of Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins if it was aborted halfway through and left to rot in the sun. It was obviously designed by committee and dumbed down to cater to the absolute lowest common denominator and in doing so took what was once a promising franchise and shit all over it.

Bottom line is that Bioware is slowly becoming just another cog in the soulless machine that killed and devoured it. This is the first of what I expect to many upcoming releases that are needless and insulting cash grabs. The Bioware I used to praise heavily is dead and buries and whatever this company is that took it's place can go bugger themselves for all I care.
Time and again this is why i play Dungeons and Dragons. I liked Oblivion, but it was flawed. DA2 is worse in many ways, but you cant be free of the pain of life until you Die Inside and realize that the fantasy version of a Baldur's gate like game where you can take indidvidual control of a character and personally pwn npcs won't exist for reasons developers will never release. Similarly a good fps/ rts doesn't exist- And I mean a good, widely played one so pre-emptively can it yáll. You will eventually be delighted by some close approximation (oblivion, NwN 1 ) It's also good to remember that what you imagine when they describe the game in a blurb, and what they imagine, are DIFFERENT. On Tactics: Just where would the Champion gain this info? So it's hard responding to swarm tactics from the ground with a sword- that's fantasy gaming Brosef. The reason it sucks in Video games is that everybody forgets UTILITY MAGIC!

At he end of it all though, I agree that RPG and button bash hack and slash are not right. Combat should be more personal and fluid, a la Fight Night round 3. At least they're marching towards a bright front.
 

Zer_

Rocket Scientist
Feb 7, 2008
2,682
0
0
ZombieGenesis said:
Dragon Age 2: RPG Players "don't like CopyPasta dungeons."
This. I'm one of those people who really enjoyed Mass Effect 1/2, but that's because I see them more as great action games than classic RPGs.

DA:O was a very classic styled RPG with a few action elements thrown in. It wasn't perfect, but it was good. The world was interesting, and the environments good looking.

DA2 throws everything that was good about DA:O out of the window. To add insult to injury, the varied environments we come to expect from a BioWare game simply aren't there.
 

Levethian

New member
Nov 22, 2009
509
0
0
Agree with you, Susurrus.

Change is fine. Homogenisation represents a really bleak future.

BloatedGuppy said:
So yes, you're quite right. Everyone who agrees with you is rational and orderly in their thinking, and everyone who disagrees with you is hiding behind straw men. Why even have a conversation about this at all?
Take a few deep breaths, Guppy, lest you begin to sound like a brat.
 

MiracleOfSound

Fight like a Krogan
Jan 3, 2009
17,776
0
0
Calibretto said:
Oh wait
http://www.vgchartz.com/
700 thousand compared to DAO 3.2 million GG NO RE.
You're not really proving your point by comparing first week sales with lifetime sales.

Links are all in this thread:

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Dragon-Age-II/Dragon-Age-II-General-Discussion-No-Spoilers-allowed/Dragon-Age-2-first-week-sales-figures-vs-Dragon-Age-Origins-Interpretation-6678682-1.html


Calibretto said:
Um everything I have read is dragon age 2 sales are dropping fast give us some facts and links soundwave or go back to your cassette player. Its not nice to throw factual statements around without supporting documents.
Confrontational little fellow, aren't you?
 

MiracleOfSound

Fight like a Krogan
Jan 3, 2009
17,776
0
0
Calibretto said:
Oh my little mermaid please.
Dont get your tail in a spin.
Do you understand that Mass effect is Mass effect?
And Dragon Age is Dragon Age?
Mixing the two is like putting McDonalds at a fine dining restaurant....
And yes I know.... You would like to get Mcdonalds EVERYWHERE.. but you gotta understand..
Some people like duck ala orange or a Blanquette de veau you cant have McDonalds everywhere.
Fish Brains its ok to have your opinion but understand... Its a silly one.
I mean silly opinions are ofcourse completely validated and even can get political backing ( take the neo cons for example).
But the sooner you realise that Mcdonalds is not Quiche Lorraine the sooner you will understand that there are many colours to the rainbow.. Not just a Big Mac.
Can I please have some of whatever you're smoking/snorting/injecting? I could use some down-time.
 

Ascarus

New member
Feb 5, 2010
605
0
0
Susurrus said:
Over and over and over, this charge appears everywhere. From the lead designer of DA2, Mike Laidlaw, to almost every lover of Dragon Age 2. "BW fanboys are bitter, stuck in the mud, and if we follow them, RPG games will never, ever evolve."

That's fine, as far as it goes. It makes sense to not stay in the past, and, as a long-time RPGer, I have to confess that I've taken this view more than once. For me, NWN was an abject failure of a game, leading to me not buying NWN2 until two years after release (which in hindsight is rather gutting, because I loved it). At the time, I wondered if the port to 3d was at the root, and that perhaps 2d would be better. That was short-sighted and incorrect - it was the abysmal, disjointed story that was the problem, not the graphics.

So seeing this charge levelled against long-time RPGers, I could understand the sentiment.

But I think this time, the new fanboys (those of DA2), and Mike Laidlaw, have got it completely the wrong way round.

Dragon Age was a fairly big change-up from the old DnD system Bioware was more familiar with, but was largely approved of. The combat system was new and different, the world a different entity, its mechanics (overly complex perhaps, even compared to DnD), but new.

What those moaning about DA2 are moaning about is NOT change. It is familiarity. The charges levelled against DA2, are that its a console game - and I choose here to allow them some charity, because I don't think this is the clamouring of PC gaming elitists. Truly.

I think its against something different: the type of game that ends up on consoles. Everyone's played them: the button-bashing, no-thought-required games that are all flash and pizzazz, and that are brilliant for what they are - time-consumers, a bit of relaxation, great to play with friends - but not the kind of thing that outlives its generation. The console has more of these than the PC, I suspect because the limited number of buttons, the more relaxed image of the console-player as a gamer, and the more communal nature of the activity. But for whatever reason, they're flash-in-a-pan games. The next big thing that swiftly becomes forgotten.

The RPG crowd are rejecting what they see as a step towards this kind of game. The flashy, quickly-developed money-spinner, that is soon forgotten for the next thing. They are familiar with it, and the very fact that they play RPGs is a sort of rejection of this model of gaming. Fans of NWN are STILL developing modules for it. The same is true of NWN2. Fans have dedicated ten years or more to these games - something that even its biggest fans, will, i suspect, acknowledge is not possible in Dragon Age 2 (and to a lesser extent, Dragon Age). IN this regard, I don't think DLC is a bad way to go - it allows developers to continue to gain money from long-time obsessions, so that they can justify such long development cycles.

What the fans wanted from Bioware, what they had come to expect, were instant classics, brilliant for their story. What they had rejected were those games that were flash, with little substance. Laidlaw's statement effectively states that: flashy games with small development cycles are the way the industry is developing, the way we are moving, get over it.

But this is not what the fans want, is not the type of game the old fans want, that I want: Bioware gains a significant income from its old fans, precisely because they're the last bastion of true RPG gaming in an industry that is increasingly moving in another direction. Is it any surprise the fans don't like that?

Yes, it's change, but it's change to become increasingly like everything else - a trend that Bioware, with Black Isle, initially gained so much money - and so many fans - from bucking. The fans are clamouring for difference. Its Bioware's move towards homogenization that is the problem.
well thought out, well stated, well written ...

i completely agree.
 

HonestJoe

New member
Feb 16, 2011
14
0
0
D Moness said:
HonestJoe said:
Like it or not, the fact is Dragon Age 2 disappointed many people for many reasons. Said people have chosen to go online to vent their frustrations, probably because their friends/loved-ones aren't terribly interested in listening to them.
Except that almost every hate topic is about all the fans of DA:O hate DA 2. That is NOT the case some fans like DA 2 more or even the same. Thinking your opinion is the same as all the fans in the world is just being arrogant.

Yes many people dislike the game. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it. What do are NOT entitled to is speaking like they are speaking for the whole community.
I don't think anyone has announced that they're speaking for the whole community. If anything they are speaking to the entire community; airing their grievances towards a disappointing game to the wider gaming public.
I don't think any single poster has actually claimed to be speaking for every single gamer.
Although even if you you were correct in your assumption of the motivations of the posters on these threads, they are still perfectly entitled to speak in any manner they choose to.

Regardless, I think the original point of my post was sound. If you don't like reading threads bashing DA2, then stop reading them. All you're doing is raising your own aggravation levels, and that's a quick way to an ulcer.
 

ninja51

New member
Mar 28, 2010
342
0
0
Bioware is really going crazy that the general view on this game is its just meh. I dont think they can handle that people dont love their game completely and their desperately trying to rationalize it to themselves with every reason but the truth, it was lazily designed. Really Bioware, you guys can make great games, but this is just pathetic. This game is not that great, come to grips with it.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,519
5,335
118
You know what the real difference is between Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2?

- Dragon Age: Origins allows you enormous breathing room to create your own character and story within the frame of a catastrophic event.

- Dragon Age 2 only allows you to make decisions within a characters predetermined path.

This coupled with the bland visual design, characters and story makes DA2 the equivalent of a rice cracker.
 

Susurrus

New member
Nov 7, 2008
603
0
0
BloatedGuppy said:
Susurrus said:
Most of the complaints I've seen regarding conversation wheel are suggesting it sees a reduction in RPG elements, and compare it to BG/BG2. Clearly, I'm not alone in feeling that it reduces RPGness. It worked in Mass Effect but I didn't feel it worked in Dragon Age.

In DA:O, the linearity was bad in the deep roads, and largely fine elsewhere. Awakening improved on the linearity of the previous. The linearity in the demo was painful.

From what I could see in the demo, and subsequently confirmed, many spells got cut out because they were useless/redundant etc. Some of the ones I regularly used were cut for this reason. That's an annoyance. I already thought the spell list was low.

Sure, the art style is subjective, I accept that, but it certainly has leanings towards the button-mashing type of console games.

Thank you so much for commenting on my status as 'not a bad person'. I totally build up my own self-esteem entirely based on the opinions of nameless, faceless people.
Reduction in RPG elements? What's your definition of RPG? If it's "total freedom of expression", then you're not going to find it here or in any other CRPG, and you're likely going to have to resort to telling erotic stories around the campfire in Goldshire to approach the kind of character building freedom you get in PnP. If it's about picking conversation options you feel best reflect your character, then DA2 is no worse than any Bioware game including its forebearer, and is arguably significantly better than KOTOR or ME with their rigid "Heroic Good Guy" or "Slavering Bastard" options.

What is linearity? DA:O had small maps with defined paths you could travel on. DA2 has small maps with defined paths you can travel on. One is not a sandbox game and the other a shooter on rails. Both have a small amount of flexibility in how you approach certain quest hubs, but one is not notably different than the other in terms of linearity.

Your impression was incorrect. The skill system is not reduced in complexity.

Subjective as hell and now highly leading. Please explain how an art style implies "button mashing".
Ok, to be fair, its not only conversation wheel, but also voiced dialogue/restricted PC. It means that you can no longer give the spin/tone to conversations. The pictures on the convo wheel don't help, and the voice is even worse. If I want to play a pragmatic person, that's fine, but if one of the responses I pick fits "evil guy", one "witty" etc, then I just feel like I'm being rather schizophrenic. The problem with the convo wheel is it identifies which dialogue says what, and with what tone, rather too rigidly, leaving you picking paths through the convesation based on that, not on what the player thinks is reasonable. This is in no way helped by the voice-acted main character. It was fine in Mass Effect because you were becoming Shepherd, a man with a huge history before even ME1. That's great. It's not so great when you've got a new character, that part tabula rasa, part fixed character..

The button-mashing point was leading, I suppose - but what I meant was a frenetic, bounce-around style, where everything happens fast, everything is rather jumpy, and its impossible to tactically plan - which is all supported by the wave system of enemies, etc. The art style fits with the game, but its not a type of game I like, and it certainly doesn't come under RPG, in my opinion.

I noticed the linearity a lot more - and let me be clear, I'm talking about linearity of areas - in the Deep Roads in DA:O, but that kind of made sense, as it was inside a building. Where it doesn't is outside. Yes, Origins had areas outside that were kind of linear (the Dalish Forest, for e.g.), but at least multiple paths around a square area gave the impression of a wider forest. At least in the demo, there was one totally linear path, and apart from a skybox view of the distance, there was nothing nearby that gave me any more clue to my surroundings. it was just one long path.

To clarify: Are you stating that there are more/the same number of spells as in DA:O?
 

Jaded Scribe

New member
Mar 29, 2010
711
0
0
As a huge fan of DA2, I want to offer an opposing view.

1) Homogenization of locations:

Go to any neighborhood where it was all built in the same 1-2 years. Most of the houses will look pretty much the same.

Many of the caves/hideouts you visit are the same ones. The region is fairly small (which fits the story). You're only going to have so many locales. To me at least, it makes sense that the cave that housed bandits in Act I could be converted for use by rogue mages in Act II, three years later.

The higher graphics quality also requires a lot of work, and under deadlines a compromise had to be made. I actually enjoyed it, and found the solution they came up with for coping with their limitations to be more than acceptable. By barring off some areas and opening others of a house or cave between acts, you still get variety and interest, while making something that fit what they could do with X dollars and Y time.

2) Talent Trees

I felt these were better than their DA:O counterparts. The 16-talent trees felt bloated at times. I felt that the division of spells in DA2 worked just fine, without losing anything of substance. Most of the original abilities are still in DA2, just adjusted slightly.

3) Combat Difficulty

While I grant that fights are easier mode-to-mode (i.e. Normal Difficulty - Normal Difficulty), I found dialing up the difficulty took care of it. Unless you were consistently playing at Nightmare mode on DA:O, you should still find a difficulty that challenges you. And to be honest, even in DA:O, combat felt largely like button-mashing unless you were playing on higher difficulties.

I appreciated the removal of friendly fire. I found that to be annoying and frustrating in DA:O. I'll grant they could have left it in as option, but for me it was a welcome change.

My husband started playing DA:O recently. He LOVES the story and character interaction. He hates the combat. Feels standard to him, and not what he's interested in. By toning down the combat on Easy/Normal, BioWare opens itself to people who care more about the story.

4) Choices

I felt the choices presented to you in DA:O came down to pretty arbitrary decisions. I'm trying to stop the Blight. I have no particular interest whether I have mages or templars, elves or werewolves, or golems. These choices were also highly localized, and aside from which armies you have available at the end and possibly pissing off or losing a companion, there were no greater consequences.

This is not to say I didn't enjoy the choices in DA:O, but I do appreciate that you have one major choice in DA2: Templars vs Mages. It keeps the story focused, where in DA:O, the second act of the game (the 4 ally-recruitment quests) felt like 4 disparate parts rather than a cohesive whole.

5) Companion Gear:

Yes, you can't upgrade your companions' gear with what you find laying around. On the other hand though, it allowed companions to maintain their "look". Can you really picture Merril running around in this:

Or Varric in this:


By having upgrades available for the companion armor, you still improve their armor as the game progresses, but you avoid mis-matched sets making your group look like an armory threw up on them, or just outright out of character.
 

Susurrus

New member
Nov 7, 2008
603
0
0
Jaded Scribe: I played Origins through on Nightmare twice. I would have played DA2 on nightmare, had I bought it.
You don't really seem to have engaged with any of the complaints I've actually made about it...
 

Redem

New member
Dec 21, 2009
494
0
0
I think Bioware probably would have managed to dodge the repetitive dungeons claims had they edited their map a little bit more, in order to cover-up the dead-end and the unused part on the map.

Mass Effect 1 had even less variety in its sidequest and yet people complained less

As for inventory, I think people would have complained less had the character look changed as you were upgrading them, even if they didn't have custom armor
 

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
Susurrus said:
Ok, to be fair, its not only conversation wheel, but also voiced dialogue/restricted PC. It means that you can no longer give the spin/tone to conversations. The pictures on the convo wheel don't help, and the voice is even worse. If I want to play a pragmatic person, that's fine, but if one of the responses I pick fits "evil guy", one "witty" etc, then I just feel like I'm being rather schizophrenic. The problem with the convo wheel is it identifies which dialogue says what rather too rigidly, leaving you picking paths through the convesation based on that, not on what the player thinks is reasonable. This is in no way helped by the voice-acted main character. It was fine in Mass Effect because you were becoming Shepherd, a man with a huge history before even ME1. That's great. It's not so great when you've got a new character, that part tabula rasa, part fixed character..

The button-mashing point was leading, I suppose - but what I meant was a frenetic, bounce-around style, where everything happens fast, everything is rather jumpy, and its impossible to tactically plan - which is all supported by the wave system of enemies, etc. The art style fits with the game, but its not a type of game I like, and it certainly doesn't come under RPG, in my opinion.

I noticed the linearity a lot more - and let me be clear, I'm talking about linearity of areas - in the Deep Roads in DA:O, but that kind of made sense, as it was inside a building. Where it doesn't is outside. Yes, Origins had areas outside that were kind of linear (the Dalish Forest, for e.g.), but at least multiple paths around a square area gave the impression of a wider forest. At least in the demo, there was one totally linear path, and apart from a skybox view of the distance, there was nothing nearby that gave me any more clue to my surroundings. it was just one long path.

To clarify: Are you stating that there are more/the same number of spells as in DA:O?
Okay, that's a fair comment. There were a couple of times where the words coming out of Hawke's mouth seemed tonally "off", or was something I wasn't expecting. For the most part, however, I felt my dialogue choices more or less fell in line with what I wanted, and in a couple of spots caught it bang on. The tonal shifts from "nice" to "rude" to "caustic" aren't quite as drastic as you might be lead to believe, and I found the overall tone to be more neutral in comparison to previous entries (the worst offender here being KOTOR, where the "evil" option was just comically over-the-top). Personally I found it very difficult to go back to an unvoiced character after Mass Effect. The dialogue felt "flat", and lacked the cinematic verve of its sci-fi brethern. This, of course, goes to taste, but the switch to full voice has its pros as well as cons.

The pacing is definitely faster, and THANK GOD. I was watching my girlfriend play Origins last night, and actually took over for her to get her through a tough fight, and I found the pacing to be agonizing. Watching her swing that two handed axe was like watching paint dry. It's not that DA2 has perfect combat...it doesn't. But it's not a brainless, tactically devoid mush of frantic key jabbing either. Playing on hard, I was pausing every 2-3 seconds to reposition, issue new commands, shift targets, stun, etc, etc. I had to be careful where I positioned my DPS, they had to be close enough to support each other, but far enough apart so if one got mobbed another did not. I had to keep anyone who caught aggro constantly on the move until it could be re-established. I had to make use of class-ability combos on tough bosses so I wouldn't get bogged down on their mountain of hitpoints and get overwhelmed by the trigger of a new wave. I had to manage cooldowns conservatively, keeping some abilities back for the arrival of reinforcements. If anything, it was a RICHER tactical experience for me than DA:O, and it was head and shoulders above Awakenings, in which the difficulty curve was borked completely and I was able to faceroll through every encounter on hard without even blinking.

I suppose an argument could be made that DA2 is impressionistically more linear than DA:O, but when weighed against actual open-ended games like Oblivion they're both holding hands at the far opposite end of the spectrum.

I haven't sat down and counted them, but there are an equivalent number of trees, and those trees have more flexibility and feel more robust. If I had a complaint, it would be that, like in DA:O, there are too many active abilities and toggles and insufficient passives, which is irritating because STA pools on Warriors and Rogues tend to be small.
 

Astalano

New member
Nov 24, 2009
286
0
0
*sigh*

RPG's haven't really progressed since Baldur's Gate 2 and Fallout 2. What I'm talking about is improvements in quests, more impact on gameplay through choices, more choices of playstyle, an actual great working dialogue system, which I'll elaborate on below, great, realistic combat that gets rid of the stats (I'll elaborate below), more interaction with party members and more flexibility with party members (I'll elaborate below), NPC's that have their own motivations and shape the world around them, not through scripted events (e.g. if you challenge governments they may or may not start a revolution, they may welcome or shun you depending on your reputation=some may like if you're selfish and others might hate you for it, for example and some of your reputation will only be seen by high ranking NPC's and not the common citizen), combat not based on death, but on a choice between winning and losing your stuff or being captured that shapes the story in different ways (e.g. if you're captured in DAO by werewolves they may not respect you and be more aggressive and quick to throw you in some sort of dungeon or bite you and try to turn you into one of them, which makes your mission more personal), etc.

1. Working dialogue system

What I mean by this is giving the player more dialogue options. If you're going to have voices you must have multiple voices and if you highlight one of the shortened answers, it should be expanded upon until you stop highlighting it or you should be given the option to see the whole text automatically. Moreover, all dialogue options should be gray and never separated into good/bad/snarky. Furthermore, you should be able to start dialogue while walking. I don't understand why this isn't a feature yet. I shouldn't have to stand still to blab on to an NPC and other party members should be able to cut in even if they weren't originally in the conversation, depending on proximity and such. Finally, persuade shouldn't be a skill. It should be a matter of finding information and using information to persuade someone in a logical way. Bioware and other companies seem to believe that having a better persuade level makes your voice more like Morgan Freeman or something. In the real world, persuading is based on your familiarity and trust level with people and how well you're acquainted with events, not your looks or voice, but your argument itself. This creates choices based on whether you want to find out more or just finish quickly with a situation and such. You could initially have your character stutter, but he should become more confident as you try to persuade more. Or you can have your character be a mute throughout the whole game if you so please, and let your actions speak for you.

2. Realistic combat and getting rid of stats.

When I play DAO, I want archers to use cover and have archer battles. 1 or 2 hit kills with arrows and a Fallout style targetting system. Allies with shields use the shield to block and you SEE and HEAR the clang of metal against metal. You can also modify them with different fighting styles, like telling Alistair to use the shield more offensively or Sten to be based on counterattacks over brute force. 1 hit potential kills with everything, but the emphasis is on blocking and avoiding strikes. This makes all classes deadly and useful, especially mages, who become even more of a threat. Skills need not be taken out, but you can maybe prioritise the head with your archers or the limbs to cripple combat ability to serve your melee fighters. If I hit a guy in the shoulder I want to see him pull the arrow out or at least seem pained. This of course presents new ideas for fighting enemies like the undead, who feel no pain and thus, different party combinations are necessary for various encounters, which mages best for fighting spirits and demons, archers best for standard enemies and melee's best for possessed beings and against dudes in heavy armour. Stats should be removed almost altogether or simplified or made based on choice. For instance, you can choose the route of your character at birth, picking two traits. Dexterity makes it easier to use short weapons, strength makes all damage output except for mages more potent, stamina makes your abilities consistently powerful (while abilities never have a cooldown, repeated use of them makes them less effective, but strength also levels up stamina slightly, willpower is used for magical resistance and magical damage output and constitution is gone, only a trait based at birth. There may be others as well, but basically, you can choose to have a more agile, smaller character or a large, stockily built character who's more resilient or a standard frame based on strength or a slim frame for magic use and so on and so forth.

Continuing, stats for weapons should be removed entirely. One example where stats make games stupid is in DAO, in the Dalish origin. Master Ilen gives you a bow, which has worse stats than the bow you already have. Although the bow he gives has a lot of value that has nothing to do with the stats, the stats make it disadvantageous to equip it and thus, get in the way of the story and your character.

3. More interaction with party members.

Let me give an example:

You're running from a golem that has ambushed you. One of your party members was cut off from the party as he/she went to finish off an enemy. Your mage can choose to remove the blockage, but if you do that, you won't be able to get the loot. So you don't choose the goal and the loot and you save your party member. As you wander into camp, your party member comes up and presents you with something:

"Hey, we know we couldn't get that loot, but we all pooled our money and got you this"

*she presents you with a brand new Dalish longbow bought from a merchant*

Later on, you stop using it and you lose the approval of your party as a whole, while some, like Morrigan, may approve of you chasing greater power.

This is just one example of incorporating everything in the game, from simple loot and such, to fuel interaction with your party members.
 

SageRuffin

M-f-ing Jedi Master
Dec 19, 2009
2,005
0
0
Irridium said:
When you call yourself "Dragon Age 2", people logically expect a bit more of the same, but with some additions. When you call it a sequel, people expect the mechanics to be improved upon, they expect a more PC focused game, a long, large story, and plenty of other things.

If they simply called it "Dragon Age: Chronicles of Kirkwall" or something, there would be a lot less hate.
For once, something I can agree with. It's a (very) strong chance that if this was a spin-off there'd be a lot less bile flying around.

But it's not bothering me too much. Aside from quest markers not showing up when I want them to, I'm not bothered by the game. Now if you'll excuse me, my rogue FemHawke has some skulls to drill...