Dragon Age 2: RPG Players "don't like change"

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Susurrus

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Over and over and over, this charge appears everywhere. From the lead designer of DA2, Mike Laidlaw, to almost every lover of Dragon Age 2. "BW fanboys are bitter, stuck in the mud, and if we follow them, RPG games will never, ever evolve."

That's fine, as far as it goes. It makes sense to not stay in the past, and, as a long-time RPGer, I have to confess that I've taken this view more than once. For me, NWN was an abject failure of a game, leading to me not buying NWN2 until two years after release (which in hindsight is rather gutting, because I loved it). At the time, I wondered if the port to 3d was at the root, and that perhaps 2d would be better. That was short-sighted and incorrect - it was the abysmal, disjointed story that was the problem, not the graphics.

So seeing this charge levelled against long-time RPGers, I could understand the sentiment.

But I think this time, the new fanboys (those of DA2), and Mike Laidlaw, have got it completely the wrong way round.

Dragon Age was a fairly big change-up from the old DnD system Bioware was more familiar with, but was largely approved of. The combat system was new and different, the world a different entity, its mechanics (overly complex perhaps, even compared to DnD), but new.

What those moaning about DA2 are moaning about is NOT change. It is familiarity. The charges levelled against DA2, are that its a console game - and I choose here to allow them some charity, because I don't think this is the clamouring of PC gaming elitists. Truly.

I think its against something different: the type of game that ends up on consoles. Everyone's played them: the button-bashing, no-thought-required games that are all flash and pizzazz, and that are brilliant for what they are - time-consumers, a bit of relaxation, great to play with friends - but not the kind of thing that outlives its generation. The console has more of these than the PC, I suspect because the limited number of buttons, the more relaxed image of the console-player as a gamer, and the more communal nature of the activity. But for whatever reason, they're flash-in-a-pan games. The next big thing that swiftly becomes forgotten.

The RPG crowd are rejecting what they see as a step towards this kind of game. The flashy, quickly-developed money-spinner, that is soon forgotten for the next thing. They are familiar with it, and the very fact that they play RPGs is a sort of rejection of this model of gaming. Fans of NWN are STILL developing modules for it. The same is true of NWN2. Fans have dedicated ten years or more to these games - something that even its biggest fans, will, i suspect, acknowledge is not possible in Dragon Age 2 (and to a lesser extent, Dragon Age). IN this regard, I don't think DLC is a bad way to go - it allows developers to continue to gain money from long-time obsessions, so that they can justify such long development cycles.

What the fans wanted from Bioware, what they had come to expect, were instant classics, brilliant for their story. What they had rejected were those games that were flash, with little substance. Laidlaw's statement effectively states that: flashy games with small development cycles are the way the industry is developing, the way we are moving, get over it.

But this is not what the fans want, is not the type of game the old fans want, that I want: Bioware gains a significant income from its old fans, precisely because they're the last bastion of true RPG gaming in an industry that is increasingly moving in another direction. Is it any surprise the fans don't like that?

Yes, it's change, but it's change to become increasingly like everything else - a trend that Bioware, with Black Isle, initially gained so much money - and so many fans - from bucking. The fans are clamouring for difference. Its Bioware's move towards homogenization that is the problem.
 

Susurrus

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No. What I said is, change is fine, it's homogenization that is the problem. They're two different things, masquerading as the same thing.
 

D Moness

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Sep 16, 2010
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What a surprise another i dislike DA 2 topic ... just like the dozen plus we had all before.
Only the OP wants to feel special he/she started a new one and not joined one of the MANY dislike topics around.

I am starting to hate the "Fans want this fans want that" rant. I enjoy bioware games even dragon age 2. For me some "fans" can just shove it. If they try to innovate the fans cry murder because it isn't the same as the previous game. If they make it the same as the previous the fans will cry that they did not innovate.
 

Pointer

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This is exactly what happened with Mass Effect 2, albeit not so blatantly or backwardsly. Streamlining annoying and harder aspects of the RPG experience is good. I haven't played the game, but I have read up on the accusations against it. Honestly it just sounds like laziness. I saw that when I went to Denerim and visited all of the Back Alleys. Calling the same back alleys by different names is just a developer looking to cut down on costs. And Bioware is not a company that really needs to do that.
 

Susurrus

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Wrong, actually. I haven't played DA2, because I didn't like the demo. I hope it fails, purely because of what I want from the game. What I'm attacking here is an argument consistently trotted out in defense, that is both offensive and wrong.

To clarify: my feelings on DA2 are largely irrelevant. What I take issue with is that anybody who doesn't like it is viewed as some type of dinosaur.
 

Zaik

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Susurrus said:
Wrong, actually. I haven't played DA2, because I didn't like the demo. I hope it fails, purely because of what I want from the game. What I'm attacking here is an argument consistently trotted out in defense, that is both offensive and wrong.

To clarify: my feelings on DA2 are largely irrelevant. What I take issue with is that anybody who doesn't like it is viewed as some type of dinosaur.
So you have no idea what you're talking about, because you are complaining about a game you never played.

What a shocker. I'm not the slightest bit surprised.
 

Popido

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Oct 21, 2010
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Homogenization really is the problem that ...some gamers are facing right now.

They dont make games for me anymore. I had to escape to the indie markets because of this.
Hopefully the indies will someday replace the current giants.

Zaik said:
Susurrus said:
Wrong, actually. I haven't played DA2, because I didn't like the demo. I hope it fails, purely because of what I want from the game. What I'm attacking here is an argument consistently trotted out in defense, that is both offensive and wrong.

To clarify: my feelings on DA2 are largely irrelevant. What I take issue with is that anybody who doesn't like it is viewed as some type of dinosaur.
So you have no idea what you're talking about, because you are complaining about a game you never played.

What a shocker. I'm not the slightest bit surprised.
Oh yeah, the real magic unveils behind the dirt only by buying and playing it with your own two hands.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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I suspect Mr Laidlaw is just annoyed by the torrents of hate being directed at his game.

That said, I agree with him.

Also, I am enjoyed DA2 immensely in spite of its flaws.
 

Fappy

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When is the next major upset going to be released so we can complain about that instead? This whole forum is DA2 hate threads :mad:
 

StBishop

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Post this in the thread over at bioware social where the dev team have asked for constructive feedback. Please.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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When you call yourself "Dragon Age 2", people logically expect a bit more of the same, but with some additions. When you call it a sequel, people expect the mechanics to be improved upon, they expect a more PC focused game, a long, large story, and plenty of other things.

If they simply called it "Dragon Age: Chronicles of Kirkwall" or something, there would be a lot less hate.
 

Susurrus

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Zaik said:
Susurrus said:
Zaik, you're obviously incapable of reading. This is not a thread complaining about DA2 of itself. I haven't played the game and make no secrets about it. I played the demo, which was enough for me to go: "Not for me thanks." The demo contained an almost endless list of things I disliked, and so I didn't preorder - I waited for reviews. They confirmed that the things I didn't like were in game, so I didn't buy it.

Clearly, I can't comment on the game, except in the way it relates to the demo - however, most reviews (and I've read a lot) suggest that in many ways, the demo is fairly representative of the game.

The original post attempts to convey why there are so many DA2 "haters" out there, based on my own opinion of what is/isn't in the demo, and the new direction taken for the game.

It's not a reaction based on "Oh I'm gonna hate this game" even before it came out - which seems to be a common accusation. I played the demo as a precursor to pre-ordering. I just disliked it that much that I had no interest in the game. What I was attempting to do was to convey just why I didn't like it - not because I'm resistant to change, but that it moves to be VERY SIMILAR to any number of games that are already available. That's not CHANGE that's homogeonisation. Dismissing this complaint as "resistant to change" is absurd.
 

Susurrus

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StBishop said:
Post this in the thread over at bioware social where the dev team have asked for constructive feedback. Please.
StBishop: if you give me a link to the thread, then I will.
 

MiracleOfSound

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Jan 3, 2009
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It's after selling a whole lot more the DA:O so I doubt Bioware give a shit about 50 or so vocal old school gamers who are pissed it's not Baldur's Gate.

The game has it's flaws but is nowhere near as bad as they make out.
 

Weaver

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Apr 28, 2008
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It's just stupid. There are different KINDS of change. Change, change for the worse and change for the better.

Most things in DA2, IMO anyways, changed for the worse. Why should I like that? Because Bioware wants me to? I don't think so.
 

Jandau

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Dec 19, 2008
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RPG players like change, that's why we like for the dungeons we visit to change as we move through the game, not to be visiting the exact same cave from level 1 to level 9999...

Seriously now, DA2 is a good game with objective flaws that stem from it being a rush job. I still love playing it.
 

HonestJoe

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D Moness said:
What a surprise another i dislike DA 2 topic ... just like the dozen plus we had all before.
Only the OP wants to feel special he/she started a new one and not joined one of the MANY dislike topics around.

I am starting to hate the "Fans want this fans want that" rant. I enjoy bioware games even dragon age 2. For me some "fans" can just shove it. If they try to innovate the fans cry murder because it isn't the same as the previous game. If they make it the same as the previous the fans will cry that they did not innovate.
I'm starting to hate all the "I hate all this DA2 bashing" whining. I mean it's pretty clear what the thread was about, and yet you're all here anyway complaining about being forced to read all these dissatisfied comments like someone is holding you at gunpoint.
To my mind it's like finding a dog turd on the street, then walking up to it and stepping on it so you can complain about having shit on your shoe.

Like it or not, the fact is Dragon Age 2 disappointed many people for many reasons. Said people have chosen to go online to vent their frustrations, probably because their friends/loved-ones aren't terribly interested in listening to them.

If people have a dissenting viewpoint they are just as welcome to create an I Love DA2 thread on which to expound the virtues of this game, that is if they can find any.