Dragon Age II and the decline of the classic RPG

[kingcom]

Baldur's Gate and Fallout are all games i did't play so i will not say, but ppl often have nostalgia goggles on when talking about classics.

Am I the only one that hates this comment? Your opinion is invalid because you played an older game? Something seems a little contradicatory with the statement when someone like me can go back and play through another 10 hour session of Baldur's Gate or play through Mass Effect 2 but cannot do so again with Dragon Age 2. Why cant it be that we genuinely dislike a game and something is not impairing our vision?

just wanted to say thanks for misquoting the WRONG person <.<

try not to "edit" a quote if you can't do it right

It was directed at both of you.

relax pal, i never said it was wrong. im just saying that nostalgia does cloud ones judgement from time to time. You can be absolutely correct about Baldur's Gate and Fallout, and with respect, you are probably right since everyone one and their grandma says it so.

If you dislike a game for whatever reason that is your reason. Because of Nostalgia Goggles i never take anyone's words on face value. So until i've played those games, i really cannot have an opinion.

And sir i do not entirely agree with what the other person said, so do not misquote me. There is nothing i depise more than misrepresentation.

"Relax pal", I always find that the funniest comment, both manages to imply the other person is riled by your comments and you are the one keeping it civil and best still, is able to be completely denied as anthing but an offhand comment regardless of what its goal was. Anyway...

I put your full quote there, it indicates that 2 people made seperate comments. I incorrectly quoted sure but I ammended that, nowhere have I misrepresented as of the posting of your message. My comment was trying to project the other side of the arguement, why I dislike as opposed to you liking.

And to the Nostalgia Goggles comment, the amount of people on this issue that use that arguement to invalidate anyone who claims to have seen better. Seems interesting as you can never ever trust anything anyone has said, to the point that you ultimately invalidate anything you say based on you yourself having nostalgia goggles (regardless of its relevency as all human experience contributes to their development and how an opinion is formed). How can an opinion not be taken at face value? That they are lying for some unforseen goal? Seems a waste of time on a topic on an internet forum.

 

[veloper]

I must say, I don't think that classic RPGs are 'dead', as this article concludes by saying, any more than any other genre is dead. I know plenty of people who loved both Origins and DA2. I think we'll see just as many 'traditional' games as we see 'new' styled games in the future. At least, I hope.
Also, I don't see any 'critical scorn' for traditional games. FFXIII, DA:O, ME1, etc., all got good reviews. Games that genuinely had serious problems (Alpha Protocol) didn't.

Mass effect and Alpha protocol are traditional RPGs now?
Kids these days.

Big oldschool RPGs haven't been released for 7 years now, outside a couple garage indies on the PC and some SRPGs on handhelds.

DA:O came close, but that game plays RTWP and not real TB. Many oldschoolers could appreciate the attempt and RTWP is rare enough nowadays, but it was only half-decent.

People will play what they want to play, and I think that as long as somebody wants to play an old-school RPG, there will be something for him to find.

If they want to find a new title that they haven't played yet, probably not. They're nolonger being catered to.

 

[Atmos Duality]

its the same reason why you find cars of all different shapes, sizes and utilities today instead of a single 1891 Panhard-Levassor type of vehicle.

"Jellybean autos"
Until you break into the realm of sports cars, most automobiles today have such similar bodies, it's hard to tell them apart.

OT: "Evolution" of RPGs? Pfft.
It's entirely too easy to forget what that "R" in "RPG" means. The "Roles" are so shallow in so many games today that they become meaningless.

No, the problem is that it takes entirely too much effort for a developer to deliver meaningful stories; so we end up with generic marketable slop instead. You tack on RPG elements to provide the illusion of choice, when in practice most of those choices are negligible (oh wow! I increased my Health by a whopping 3%!), or you tack them on so you can add grind to the multiplayer (so many shooters are adopting this now for some reason) to pad your playing numbers.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Baldur's Gate and Fallout are all games i did't play so i will not say, but ppl often have nostalgia goggles on when talking about classics.

Am I the only one that hates this comment? Your opinion is invalid because you played an older game? Something seems a little contradicatory with the statement when someone like me can go back and play through another 10 hour session of Baldur's Gate or play through Mass Effect 2 but cannot do so again with Dragon Age 2. Why cant it be that we genuinely dislike a game and something is not impairing our vision?

just wanted to say thanks for misquoting the WRONG person <.<

try not to "edit" a quote if you can't do it right

It was directed at both of you.

relax pal, i never said it was wrong. im just saying that nostalgia does cloud ones judgement from time to time. You can be absolutely correct about Baldur's Gate and Fallout, and with respect, you are probably right since everyone one and their grandma says it so.

If you dislike a game for whatever reason that is your reason. Because of Nostalgia Goggles i never take anyone's words on face value. So until i've played those games, i really cannot have an opinion.

And sir i do not entirely agree with what the other person said, so do not misquote me. There is nothing i depise more than misrepresentation.

"Relax pal", I always find that the funniest comment, both manages to imply the other person is riled by your comments and you are the one keeping it civil and best still, is able to be completely denied as anthing but an offhand comment regardless of what its goal was. Anyway...

I put your full quote there, it indicates that 2 people made seperate comments. I incorrectly quoted sure but I ammended that, nowhere have I misrepresented as of the posting of your message. My comment was trying to project the other side of the arguement, why I dislike as opposed to you liking.

And to the Nostalgia Goggles comment, the amount of people on this issue that use that arguement to invalidate anyone who claims to have seen better. Seems interesting as you can never ever trust anything anyone has said, to the point that you ultimately invalidate anything you say based on you yourself having nostalgia goggles (regardless of its relevency as all human experience contributes to their development and how an opinion is formed). How can an opinion not be taken at face value? That they are lying for some unforseen goal? Seems a waste of time on a topic on an internet forum.

Some games do suck now if you play it again. I for example was guilty of this. I use have the biggest hard on for Excite Bike. But having played it again on an emulator, i knew for sure it was just my nostalgia thinking it was the greatest game ever.

So Im willing to admit i fall for it. the question is, how many other ppl in these forums are willing to do the same?

 

[Cenequus]

As someone wrote above people always complained about the "new big rpg" when it came out and I'm old enough to remember the forum masses outraged about Baldur's gate 2 improvements over BG1. Not to mention Planescape Torment that was considered the worse rpg ever for like 2-3 years.

So I never minded people bashing on games I loved(and DA2 is one that involved me emotionally more than any game) as long as the developers ignored the vocal minority the spam the internets. But I do have the feeling that latelly they are getting more and more credit and they'll change the genre completelly eventually. I always feared my games would turn into jrpgs just because that FF,Zelda etc sells more than god. Atleast I have in my collecton some good 10+ RPGs that I could still replay from time to time.

 

[theultimateend]

I hate the attitude of 'if this had a different title, I would feel differently about the game'. It's dumb. A good game is a good game.

Many people enjoy a game that meets up with their expectations. Things like prior game experience and the knowledge of the developers budget factor in strongly with this.

Lets say I had two glasses of lemonade.

The first is a mass produce kind.

The second is from the local stand.

If they both taste the same I am likely to enjoy the second one better because the kid put time into it, I know they are low on cash, and the overall experience is more "homey".

Also we are ignoring the point that when you name something the same as the previous title you are making the unsaid suggestion that it will be very similar with improvements.

However it is popular now to make an entirely new game and scrap the old model crapping all over your previous constituents.

Dawn of War II probably is a great game on its own merits. But they didn't work off that, they ran off the coat tails of Dawn of War I. In terms of gameplay they are dramatically different. So you come into the situation expecting to drink lemonade and end up with a warm glass of grapefruit juice.

Some people like the surprise, but generally it upsets people.

So, in that example, calling it "Dawn of War: Squad Combat" or something else (I'm no marketer) would have told the customer. We are still the company you love, this is still the same universe, but don't expect the previous gameplay style.

A big part of the 100% subjective experience of enjoying games is the expectations the person has.

But yes, if you could objectively enjoy a game (welcome to being a Vulcan) your point is pretty solid.

 

[kingcom]

And I guess when it comes to 'faults', as you said it really only comes down to personal preference. I liked that there was a certain inevitabilty to your actions in DA2 because it felt like fate, for lack of a less cheesy term. And there's always the old phrase that the destination isn't what is important, it's the journey. And there's nothing wrong with wanting more freedom, like yourself. But there are a lot of people out there saying that the game is awful because it isn't how they wanted it. That it's destroying a genre, or being disloyal to fans. But that kind of thinking just seems so... selfish to me, you know? Not liking something doesn't make it bad. It doesn't mean that the creators made a mistake. They made it how they believed it should be made. While that doesn't excuse critical examination, and naturally shouldn't, I think it should warrant a good deal more respect from the people who experience it.

But then, maybe I am naive in wanting people to be more tolerant of things they don't like.

I think people have every right to be selfish in their spending of their money for their enjoyment. I personally think this line of abandonning the most vital principle of a Roleplaying Game, personal choice and freedom, is damaging to the genre itself. Its the only reason I play RPGs to choose. Unfortunately this isnt something thats going to be available much longer and my opportunity for freedom would need to be saved for my weekly table top roleplaying session but I really pity those who don't have that. It seems really silly that an interative medium takes away a core tool of interactivity.

Good and Bad are relative terms, they are based entirely on subjective reasoning, what one considers bad, another considers good.

People are very tolerent of things they dont like. I cant stand JRPGs, Anime or just about anything out of Japan, to me everything is unreal, irrational and irritating. Do I think it should all change to suit me? No. I dont like driving games, sims, most FPS etc but I dont think it should change to suit me. Though western RPGs with a focus on choice and freedom. Yea I think you should let me have just that. Just one tiny little market for me to enjoy, and yes, I am unhappy to have it taken away and given it to a different bunch of people, I am resentful of the decisions made but that does not make me intolerant.

 

[icaritos]

I never was too fond of the "classic" rpg style, so I don't mind this transformation at all.
As far as I'm concerned, pretty much all the changes from DA:O to DA2 were improvements.

You are not representative of the entire gaming population. Either way, what gives us the right to complain is the fact that dragon age was originally marketed as Baldurs Gate spiritual successor. You can't just change the games core audience and expect no complaints.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/116/1168985p1.html

This is an excellent article that describes how Dragon Age II's glaring differences with its predecessor are part of a much larger theme in gaming today. That theme can be summed up as the death of the RPG genre as we know it, but the rebirth of its core elements in other game types.

Read the article- really, it's worth your time- and discuss. Is the RPG genre on its way out the door?

Terrible article that makes broad, sweeping generalized statements based on incorrect assumptions.

If IGN wants to herald the death of the old school RPG, I want to lament the death of intellectual journalism.

Please, enlighten us as to why you think that way.

 

[GiantRaven]

Dawn of War II probably is a great game on its own merits.

There's no 'probably' about it. A game can either be good, or bad. Circumstances such as the name of the game, as well as player expectations, shouldn't factor into how good a game is. "This game would be good if it had a different name" is in no way a valid criticism of said game.

 

[kingcom]

Some games do suck now if you play it again. I for example was guilty of this. I use have the biggest hard on for Excite Bike. But having played it again on an emulator, i knew for sure it was just my nostalgia thinking it was the greatest game ever.

So Im willing to admit i fall for it. the question is, how many other ppl in these forums are willing to do the same?

Absolutely they do, I discovered that despite the poor start to Fallout 2, its the superior game to Fallout 1, that MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries was better than 2 that I prefer BF2142 over its 1942 conterpart, C&C3 over its predecessors. I know I now don't like Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, NWN or the Ultima games.

What makes a game stand the test of time is for me to be able to play it from start to completion 10 years from now. Games like Baldur's Gate 1 + 2, Fallout 2, Deus Ex and so on. I have established my quality standards for what a game should be. It should make me care, it should make me question, it should make me contemplate my beliefs, ideology, perspective on human nature. It should teach me what it means to exist, to interact, to live. A great game should make me weep, should make me cry out in joy. Few games do that, and thats why I hold these few in such high standard. As do many others.

Thats a question its impossible to answer without knowing everyone personally though I chose to trust people to put their personal opinions into it. They took the time and effort to make a post, yea many are going to be trolling but I like to take truth and then have it falsified, not the other way around.

 

[Trolldor]

I hate the attitude of 'if this had a different title, I would feel differently about the game'. It's dumb. A good game is a good game.

Except no.

Context is important.

Edit: A small dev can release a game, well recieved, that if released by a larger dev would be rightly ridiculed and dismissed.

In this case, DA 2 was an average game. It was okay. It was not 'great', it was not terrible. It was fairly middle ground.
Which is not good enough as a sequel to Dragon Age: Origins
It's not good enough coming from Bioware.

 

[kingcom]

Dawn of War II probably is a great game on its own merits.

There's no 'probably' about it. A game can either be good, or bad. Circumstances such as the name of the game, as well as player expectations, shouldn't factor into how good a game is. "This game would be good if it had a different name" is in no way a valid criticism of said game.

Yes it can. The game contains "Warhammer 40,000" in its title. If I dont see the grim darkness of the far future, I can criticise its presentation of an existing setting.

 

[bootz]

Witcher 2 is saving the genre right now. It has an inventory , armor and weapon choices.
You can Explore it. It's not easy either. Your choices actually matter.

Its what bioware should aspire too.

 

[Woodsey]

Witcher 2 is saving the genre right now. Its what bioware should aspire too.

I'd like to see them actually comment on it. They haven't said anything from what I've seen.

 

[Bebus]

Ok, please open your eyes.

There is no such things as the 'decline of the classic RPG'. A simple look at the Steam RPG section shows dozens of recently released 'classic RPGs', with elves and dwarves and mages and turn based combat and unintuitive inventory systems and overly elaborate dialogue driven plot lines and customisation oozing out of all the orifices you don't want it to. If this glut of new RPGs is not exactly the kind of thing you are looking for then I do not know what is.

The problem? Seems to me like laziness. You seem to want RPGs to come from the huge developers and slap you in the face when you walk into a game store. Huge developers never have and never will make 'classic RPGs' because there is not a large market, whereas there is clearly a large market for the 'action RPGs' like Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2, where RPG fans who want a bit of excitement or action fans who want a bit of a story can meet in a happy middle ground.

There are loads of new 'classic RPGs' out there. If you have been tricked into thinking that EA and Activision are the only people who release games, and are not willing to look a little further than the size of a company's marketing department, then the future of the 'classic RPG' really will be a dead one.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Some games do suck now if you play it again. I for example was guilty of this. I use have the biggest hard on for Excite Bike. But having played it again on an emulator, i knew for sure it was just my nostalgia thinking it was the greatest game ever.

So Im willing to admit i fall for it. the question is, how many other ppl in these forums are willing to do the same?

Absolutely they do, I discovered that despite the poor start to Fallout 2, its the superior game to Fallout 1, that MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries was better than 2 that I prefer BF2142 over its 1942 conterpart, C&C3 over its predecessors. I know I now don't like Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, NWN or the Ultima games.

What makes a game stand the test of time is for me to be able to play it from start to completion 10 years from now. Games like Baldur's Gate 1 + 2, Fallout 2, Deus Ex and so on. I have established my quality standards for what a game should be. It should make me care, it should make me question, it should make me contemplate my beliefs, ideology, perspective on human nature. It should teach me what it means to exist, to interact, to live. A great game should make me weep, should make me cry out in joy. Few games do that, and thats why I hold these few in such high standard. As do many others.

Thats a question its impossible to answer without knowing everyone personally though I chose to trust people to put their personal opinions into it. They took the time and effort to make a post, yea many are going to be trolling but I like to take truth and then have it falsified, not the other way around.

reasonable.

However, Bf2142 better than bf1942 is blasphemous! That sir i cannot agree.

 

[OManoghue]

I found Dragon Age 2 to be one of the most boring games I've ever played.

Sure the gameplay was a little slower in DA:O but at least what was happening was interesting, opposed to some of the DA2 plot thread that lead literally nowhere.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Jrpgs are still alive and rocking though. Sure, they sell like crap out of Japan..but that doesn't really affect me.


I never was a huge Wrpg fan but I did enjoy origins. I suppose this isn't as much a blow to me as it is to other, more serious fans.


Oh and lol at ME2 being the best game of the generation XD.