Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition: Initial Impressions

[Chibz]

I played 4e and personally didn't like it. It felt too video-gamey. They even refer to the classes as healer, tank and what not (maybe not specifically, but for the most part).

In 3.0/3.5 you felt like adventurers who, while being normal people, end up in an extrodinary situation and become heroes and legends. In 4e, it feels like you were born destined to be a demi god and what not. I don't feel like I'm playing my character, I'm just playing some random character.

There is much truth to this. They pretty much DO call classes things like "Tanks", etc. How is this in any way helpful to the willing suspense of disbelief?

 

[Alex_P]

This is the other reason why 4th edition came about: They ran out of book ideas for 3.5. Now they're re-releasing everything in 4th.

This is also the reason 2nd Edition came out. And the reason 3rd Edition came out. And the reason 3.5th Edition came out. (Seriously: notice how they printed a stack of class books and then printed them all again for 3.5e, padded out with reprinted content from Dragon magazine?)

All supplement treadmills work this way. Whichever new one you find to replace 3.5e won't be any different.

-- Alex

 

[Chibz]

This is the other reason why 4th edition came about: They ran out of book ideas for 3.5. Now they're re-releasing everything in 4th.

This is also the reason 2nd Edition came out. And the reason 3rd Edition came out. And the reason 3.5th Edition came out. (Seriously: notice how they printed a stack of class books and then printed them all again for 3.5e, padded out with reprinted content from Dragon magazine?)

All supplement treadmills work this way. Whichever new one you find to replace 3.5e won't be any different.

-- Alex

Actually, the 2E to 3.0E update made some fundamental rule changes, many of which were necessary. The 3.5E update was also... sort of necessary. There were a few horridly overpowered spells/etc that needed updated.

 

[Alex_P]

Actually, the 2E to 3.0E update made some fundamental rule changes, many of which were necessary. The 3.5E update was also... sort of necessary. There were a few horridly overpowered spells/etc that needed updated.

More edition-warring myopia!

Look, I can do that, too:

"The D&D 4 update was necessary because the game lost its focus at high levels, multiclassing was clunky and impossible to balance, the CR system didn't provide adequate guidance for encounter structure, and the hit-points-and-healing economy was fundamentally broken."

Any time a publisher releases a book the goal is to make money and all this other stuff is part of how they make fans want to part with that money -- by creating a product someone actually wants.

-- Alex

 

[PxDn Ninja]

I played 4e and personally didn't like it. It felt too video-gamey. They even refer to the classes as healer, tank and what not (maybe not specifically, but for the most part).

In 3.0/3.5 you felt like adventurers who, while being normal people, end up in an extrodinary situation and become heroes and legends. In 4e, it feels like you were born destined to be a demi god and what not. I don't feel like I'm playing my character, I'm just playing some random character.

There is much truth to this. They pretty much DO call classes things like "Tanks", etc. How is this in any way helpful to the willing suspense of disbelief?

The big thing for me is that 3/3.5 felt more open. If you REALLY want a warrior/wizard/thief who wears some outrageous outfit and fights only with a tree limb, you could do that. Granted it wasn't a good idea, but what the hell, it's your character. With the 4e stuff, you can TECHNICALLY do that (almost, only two classes as far as I remember, but honestly didn't get too far into it), but the system fights you at every corner.

I do say though that it really does help the computer games industry since the whole system is designed for a computer counterpart.

 

[McClaud]

And for those of you who still like DnD but hate 4th Ed, Piazo loves you so they've made Pathfinder.

Perhaps they do love you. But their love is misguided. If they truly loved you, they'd help you break out of this cycle of book-a-month addiction.

-- Alex

Overall Pathfinder holds little interest for me, I usually play a homebrew version of Star Wars SAGA edition, HEX or Spirit of the Century.

Also Pathfinder is currently free.

And Pathfinder's "book of the month" isn't exactly releasing more source anything - it's like every other RPG system in that these are actually different modules that are different adventures. There's only ONE Pathfinder sourcebook - everything else is a module. You can wait and buy the ones you want for a particular campaign or subscribe and get them all every time a new one comes out.

It's not convoluted "brain science" or a ponzi scheme like D&D, World of Darkness, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, GURPS, or Savage Worlds - all which require another source book if you're going to play something different. Pathfinder is just the essense of "here's the rules for free (or bibliophiles can buy the hardcover Alpha version if they want) and now if you want to play adventures written by some of the best writers in the business, you can pick and chose what you want to buy (or subscribe to every single one, if again, you are a bibliophile). Or you can go at it alone and write your own."

Just because it's modified d20, doesn't mean that it requires the additional purchase of everything 3.x made.

 

[Alex_P]

And Pathfinder's "book of the month" isn't exactly releasing more source anything - it's like every other RPG system in that these are actually different modules that are different adventures. There's only ONE Pathfinder sourcebook - everything else is a module. You can wait and buy the ones you want for a particular campaign or subscribe and get them all every time a new one comes out.

They seem to be making fairly standard splats under the "Companion" line, too.

I think it's a better model for de-facto subscriptions than WotC's, but they're still trying very hard to sell you de-facto subscriptions.

-- Alex

 

[Chibz]

Actually, the 2E to 3.0E update made some fundamental rule changes, many of which were necessary. The 3.5E update was also... sort of necessary. There were a few horridly overpowered spells/etc that needed updated.

More edition-warring myopia!

Look, I can do that, too:

"The D&D 4 update was necessary because the game lost its focus at high levels, multiclassing was clunky and impossible to balance, the CR system didn't provide adequate guidance for encounter structure, and the hit-points-and-healing economy was fundamentally broken."

Any time a publisher releases a book the goal is to make money and all this other stuff is part of how they make fans want to part with that money -- by creating a product someone actually wants.

-- Alex

Yeah, and whoever said that really has no idea what they were talking about.

 

[McClaud]

And Pathfinder's "book of the month" isn't exactly releasing more source anything - it's like every other RPG system in that these are actually different modules that are different adventures. There's only ONE Pathfinder sourcebook - everything else is a module. You can wait and buy the ones you want for a particular campaign or subscribe and get them all every time a new one comes out.

They seem to be making fairly standard splats under the "Companion" line, too.

I think it's a better model for de-facto subscriptions than WotC's, but they're still trying very hard to sell you de-facto subscriptions.

-- Alex

Well, that's because it takes money to pay the people who write these things and make this a viable product.

I also agree that Insider is the worst idea and it's horribly implemented. I was beta to that for almost a year before they kicked me out because I criticized their inability to do anything right, and spend money to do the thing right.

Seriously, making certain FAQ for 4e subscription-only? That's like saying, "Hey, I broke your video game horribly while desigining it and now you have to pay for a subscription for us to give you the proper code to make it work better." We barely stand for that now as it is with video games!

And that DM Tool to allow you to DM a game over Insider? Only if you and your gaming group all have a pre-paid yearly subscription to Insider. And only if it EVER GETS FINISHED instead of fucking around with it.

 

[Chibz]

And Pathfinder's "book of the month" isn't exactly releasing more source anything - it's like every other RPG system in that these are actually different modules that are different adventures. There's only ONE Pathfinder sourcebook - everything else is a module. You can wait and buy the ones you want for a particular campaign or subscribe and get them all every time a new one comes out.

They seem to be making fairly standard splats under the "Companion" line, too.

I think it's a better model for de-facto subscriptions than WotC's, but they're still trying very hard to sell you de-facto subscriptions.

-- Alex

Well, that's because it takes money to pay the people who write these things and make this a viable product.

I also agree that Insider is the worst idea and it's horribly implemented. I was beta to that for almost a year before they kicked me out because I criticized their inability to do anything right, and spend money to do the thing right.

Seriously, making certain FAQ for 4e subscription-only? That's like saying, "Hey, I broke your video game horribly while desigining it and now you have to pay for a subscription for us to give you the proper code to make it work better." We barely stand for that now as it is with video games!

And that DM Tool to allow you to DM a game over Insider? Only if you and your gaming group all have a pre-paid yearly subscription to Insider. And only if it EVER GETS FINISHED instead of fucking around with it.

You forgot to mention one thing. In order to make the "Insider" system viable (as in, to make it so people MIGHT buy it) they had to kill both Dungeon AND Dragon Magazines. Magazines more important in gaming history than their entire company.

 

[Chibz]

You forgot to mention one thing. In order to make the "Insider" system viable (as in, to make it so people MIGHT buy it) they had to kill both Dungeon AND Dragon Magazines. Magazines more important in gaming history than their entire company.

They didn't have to. That's a key point you need to remember. They started Insider with the full intent of keeping it free. However, it sparked in someone's head that they could make it a pay job. There are several areas that don't get D&D magazine, and people were definitely willing to pay for it over the magazines.
However, it then sparked into WoTC's mind that the people who were receiving the magazines, would have full access to the back issues they already owned. And that's where the marketing tactic came in. Make people who want access to not only new information but old as well, pay for it. So, Insider became a PDF job. Then, they realized that if they made it a PDF job, they'd lose subscribers due to people downloading, printing, and sharing the copies. And they didn't want that.
So, now they had a product, that people would pay to subscribe to, but with people downloading and trading them, they'd lose even more money. They wouldn't even have half of their projected subscribers now. So, how do we fix that? Not make back issue PDFs, make it pay only, and completely wipe the magazines off the face of the earth.
What started as a noble, and swell idea, put on Sauron's ring.

Their motives don't defend them for what they've done. It never does.

 

[Chibz]

Not trying to.

What I find funny about the logic you put forth (if it is, indeed, their logic) is this: They would lose money due to pdf downloaders REGARDLESS of whether or not it is a hard copy, or a pdf file. So instead they give you an incomplete service, and ... that's it.

 

[Chibz]

Not trying to.

What I find funny about the logic you put forth (if it is, indeed, their logic) is this: They would lose money due to pdf downloaders REGARDLESS of whether or not it is a hard copy, or a pdf file. So instead they give you an incomplete service, and ... that's it.

That's not my logic, that's what happened. They had a chance to possibly deliver some of the greatest service ever delivered by a gaming company. But somehow it got into their minds that this way would cause them to lose a few dollars. So, they went Wal-Mart. Provide shit products, at a higher price.

Well yeah. This is made even more comical by the fact that every single part of their Insider service could be obtained elsewhere.

Better and free.

 

[Rapthorn2ndform]

no worrys dude,
halforc is in phb2
and for the record,
Dragonborn and teifling were in 3.5 too, just not as main races
but they were still cool

 

[Rapthorn2ndform]

and i even found a bootleg Phb2 up on the internet
(this has been posted 3 days before it came out)
and i like the preview, I'm still buying the book though
i don't want wizards going broke and closing down

 

[McClaud]

no worrys dude,
halforc is in phb2

See, I highlighted that word for a reason.

Since when should there ever be a Player's Handbook 2?

Either put it all in the first one, or wait to release the FIRST DAMN PHB when everything is ready.

I know the answer to that, since I was there in Insider when Mike Mearls (who is an absolute dipshit) did a little Q&A for us. Most of 4e seems incomplete because:

1. It is.
2. They had a deadline from Hasbro to get 4e out the door on a certain date.
3. Profit.

Problem is - when Mike Mearls told us that, one-third of the beta quit right then and there. His immediate response, and I quote:

"I can't stand people who wuss out of the biggest, greatest project that will change the face of RPGs for the next decade."

Mike Mearls, if you ever read this - you are a fat slob and an egotistical dick.

 

[Chibz]

no worrys dude,
halforc is in phb2

See, I highlighted that word for a reason.

Since when should there ever be a Player's Handbook 2?

Either put it all in the first one, or wait to release the FIRST DAMN PHB when everything is ready.

I know the answer to that, since I was there in Insider when Mike Mearls (who is an absolute dipshit) did a little Q&A for us. Most of 4e seems incomplete because:

1. It is.
2. They had a deadline from Hasbro to get 4e out the door on a certain date.
3. Profit.

Problem is - when Mike Mearls told us that, one-third of the beta quit right then and there. His immediate response, and I quote:

"I can't stand people who wuss out of the biggest, greatest project that will change the face of RPGs for the next decade."

Mike Mearls, if you ever read this - you are a fat slob and an egotistical dick.

In all fairness, 3.5E had a PHB2. Let's take a look at what IT featured.

1. More information on ROLEPLAYING the standard classes.
2. Help in roleplaying a character individually and part of a group.
3. A few feats, a few spells.
4. A guide to quickly creating NPCs.

As you can see, nothing all that... MANDATORY. Just a few helpful tips and guides. A few neat feats, a few neat spells.

Under no circumstance should a second player's hand book be MANDATORY to get all the base races/classes.

This is NOT GOOD GAME DESIGN.