EDUMACATE ME: What is the point/whats different about of Gay Video Game cons?

[DudeistBelieve]

This is a real question, based on an exchange I just had with Grey Carter on Twitter.

Last I heard, things like "Gaymer Con" came into existence primarily because members of the Rainbow Armada don't feel safe or welcome at the regular cons.

Has this opinion changed? Is there another reason? Because I doubt the gaming community has gotten any less homophobic/transphobic/whathaveyou. Because certainly I feel, if that's still the reason, perhaps more work needs to be done to make these cons more inclusive towards everyone... That is a whole point of a convention isn't it? That we collectively get together to enjoy a common interest?

To that end, anyone care to drop some science on me about how the (Heteronormative?) con and the Gaymer con is actually any different? The primary focus is on games, is it not? Whats the real difference? I just want to educate myself, satiate myself with the food of knowledge, if you wheel[/DustyRhodes]

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well, yes, mainstream cons need to be more inclusive...but as things stand, there's major problems.

I couldn't tell you for sure, but I'd suspect...you know how lots of places around have all those nice looking rules about not discriminating, only they don't enforce them and get pissed on when people say they ought to. Presumably various gay cons just take homophobia seriously (and only allow you to discriminate against other minorities).

 

[Frozengale]

Well it's not just about creating a safe space and being inclusive to the LGBT Community. As I understand it these cons are also for discussing LGBT characters, stories, and other LBGT issues in gaming along with the usual Gamer Con panels. If you haven't noticed usually if a character in a video game is Gay or Trans they usually aren't given the best representation. Highly stereotypical characterization of being hedonistic, overly flamboyant, and just straight up creepy, it's not good. This is also a safe place to discuss the pitfalls and problems of such characters and how to overcome them when making games, or how to persuade developers to avoid such characters and instead make believable LGBT characters.

Of course I would argue that if you really want to make a difference then you need to try to have more of these panels at normal cons. I understand the appeal of having a safe zone for LGBT gamers, since they do tend to be the target of harassment in the gaming community, but I also feel like segregating yourself to an entirely different con doesn't help the problem since your only going to really attract the attention of your own kind and those sympathetic to your plight. I also fear that like many things it will just turn into an echo chamber, people parroting the same things back and forth to each other with no real "discussion" to be had.

Personally I don't much care for these cons. Sexuality so rarely enters into games, it usually only matters in big RPGs. It seems odd that these cons are even a thing. But they seem popular, and they may not be helping the problem but they definitely don't seem to be making it worse. So I say if they want to spend the time, energy, and money on them then go ahead.

 

[Vault101]

Cause they just wanna hang out with other gay people...mabye even meet some, it's nice to have a place where you are the default

Same reason "geeks" like to have a place to talk about all their geek related stuff

 

[Silvanus]

I also fear that like many things it will just turn into an echo chamber, people parroting the same things back and forth to each other with no real "discussion" to be had.

Well, of course, gay people will disagree with eachother about just as many topics as straight people will. There's no reason for it to turn into an echo chamber, just because these people share a certain characteristic and perhaps certain experiences.

The only argument unlikely to turn up would be that it's icky and we shouldn't have it in our games, and... well, that's an argument we can do without.

 

[Amir Kondori]

Lot of gamers like to throw around the word fag and "that's gay" casually, I think that might have something to do with it.

 

[Ubiquitous Duck]

I didn't even know this was a thing.

How do you go about finding out someone is gay when they are attending a gaming convention? Unless they are there with their partner, surely it would rarely come up?

Also, is this really true at conventions? I thought the homophobic comments were more online if anything?

I've never been to a gaming convention, so I don't know. It really surprises me that people would feel held back from attending because of their sexuality. That is very disappointing if it is true.

I think segregating just exacerbates the issue, unless it is just a statement of the situation and the real desire of an end result is for an all-inclusive-con.

 

[clippen05]

I find the whole situation about people at cons not being tolerant very strange. It's one thing for people to be mean-spirited over the internet, as there are no repercussions. But conventions are a public place. The people who are intolerant are generally spineless people who wouldn't dare speak the same words they do on the internet face-to-face. What I'm trying to get at is: I find it hard to believe that gays face some much persecution at cons.

I think, and I could very well be wrong, that A: The 'gaming homophobes' you find on the internet (lurking in LoL and CoD) generally wouldn't be ones to voice these opinions in public and B: Even if there are some jerks at these cons, the ratio of nice, upstanding people to jerks is very much in favor of nice people. And most tolerant people wouldn't be okay with that kind of discrimination in public. Again, I could be very wrong about this, there could be hard facts proving me wrong but this is my speculation. Based on that speculation, I don't see the need for these events like Gaymer Con or whatever. Besides, I thought that the LGBT 'community' want to be seen as no different from anyone else? If so, having their version of a 'no girls allowed' club seems pretty counterproductive.

 

[Vault101]

I think segregating just exacerbates the issue, unless it is just a statement of the situation and the real desire of an end result is for an all-inclusive-con.

I don't think thats the point

its just a place for gay people who like games to hang out...in a space where gay is the norm

I don't see the need for these events like Gaymer Con or whatever. Besides, I thought that the LGBT 'community' want to be seen as no different from anyone else? If so, having their version of a 'no girls allowed' club seems pretty counterproductive.

mabye you should ask a gay person

 

[Thaluikhain]

I find the whole situation about people at cons not being tolerant very strange. It's one thing for people to be mean-spirited over the internet, as there are no repercussions. But conventions are a public place. The people who are intolerant are generally spineless people who wouldn't dare speak the same words they do on the internet face-to-face. What I'm trying to get at is: I find it hard to believe that gays face some much persecution at cons.

I think, and I could very well be wrong, that A: The 'gaming homophobes' you find on the internet (lurking in LoL and CoD) generally wouldn't be ones to voice these opinions in public and B: Even if there are some jerks at these cons, the ratio of nice, upstanding people to jerks is very much in favor of nice people. And most tolerant people wouldn't be okay with that kind of discrimination in public. Again, I could be very wrong about this, there could be hard facts proving me wrong but this is my speculation. Based on that speculation, I don't see the need for these events like Gaymer Con or whatever.

Well...depends what you mean.

By way of comparison, if you were to announce you were openly gay in most churches full of devout Christians in the west, you are unlikely to be burnt at the stake. You might well be made to feel unwelcome, however.

Likewise, you'd have plenty of people who'd object to burnings at the stake not objecting to gay people being made unwelcome and leaving.

Besides, I thought that the LGBT 'community' want to be seen as no different from anyone else? If so, having their version of a 'no girls allowed' club seems pretty counterproductive.

Having their own space is the result of not being seen as no different. Sure, in the perfect world people work towards, they wouldn't be needed, but they aren't there yet.

 

[MalkavianLunatic]

To my knowledge, it has a lot to do with how your typical con presents itself, which is to say that it seems to cater to your young, caucasian, heterosexual and cisgender males. I've heard so many accounts of how these typical conventions do have rules in place to protect everyone and make it as inclusive as possible, but they only rarely seem to be enforced. And with the sad fact that gaming seems infested with some people who toss out homophobic, racist and sexist language so casually, it can lead to a very unsafe environment for anyone who doesn't fit the "target demographic".

Then there's the idea that a Gaymer Con could be a more specialized convention where people could discuss things that affect the LGBTQ community in depth and more comfortably than if you simply added such panels to your run-of-the-mill convention here and there where it's possible (and, in some sad cases, probable) that some trolls will attend with the sole intention of causing a ruckus instead of participating in a conversation about how most LGBTQ issues are overlooked, mishandled or demonized in certain mediums.

Ideally, all cons would be all-inclusive and a safe place for everyone from every walk of life to come together and discuss a common love, but more needs to be done until that becomes a reality.

That would be my guess, anyway. Even if it wasn't to combat the oft-unsafe environment of typical conventions and was created solely for the purpose of bringing in a particular set of gamers, it's a cool idea. Much like there are specific conventions for anime, games, sci-fi, furries, comics and the like, why not one that caters to the LGBTQ community?

 

[chikusho]

How do you go about finding out someone is gay when they are attending a gaming convention? Unless they are there with their partner, surely it would rarely come up?

So what, don't ask don't tell? :/

Also, is this really true at conventions? I thought the homophobic comments were more online if anything?

I've never been to a gaming convention, so I don't know. It really surprises me that people would feel held back from attending because of their sexuality. That is very disappointing if it is true.

The thing is, this is a people problem, not a gaming problem.
LGBT people already get excluded and possibly feel excluded from so many places in life and in society, that creating a safe haven where they can exist freely with other people around a shared interest is nothing but a good thing.

I think segregating just exacerbates the issue, unless it is just a statement of the situation and the real desire of an end result is for an all-inclusive-con.

Quite the contrary. A LGBT focused convention only serves to integrate people into the hobby. It's about inclusion, not exclusion.

 

[Something Amyss]

Last I heard, things like "Gaymer Con" came into existence primarily because members of the Rainbow Armada don't feel safe or welcome at the regular cons.

Well, that was easy, you answered your own question!

>.>

Has it changed? Well yes, and at the same time, no. There's two issues that are distinct but not entirely separate here that really are at issue. We have the larger overall treatment of gays, where gays are still discriminated against, abused, even murdered. Then we have a subculture that attacks people verbally for being "faggots" every three miliseconds.

Even if one of those changes, the issues that lead to "gaymer" cons won't dry up overnight. Trust me, I grew up in the 80s and I'm still dealing with the damage. Literally, in one case, since as a teen I was stabbed by someone who decided I was a "******."

Not everyone's the same. Some people have thicker skin, some people have coping mechanisms. There will never be a consensus among gays, because the LGBT crowd is unified only in th sense that they're LGBT. Like any other collection of people defined by one trait, we run a spectrum of opinions. Up to and including actually related issues (gay marriage, gay rights, how to deal with social issues at large).

But the last time this came up, someone very un-self-aware made the argument that he as a straight person would never feel comfortable at a "gaymer" con despite them being open because he couldn't handle being the minority.

And if you think about that, you have some of the best evidence as to why people would feel "gaymer" cons are necessary.

I mean, he doesn't even have people threatening to kill him for being a "breeder." He's just uncomfortable being the minority.

you know how lots of places around have all those nice looking rules about not discriminating, only they don't enforce them and get pissed on when people say they ought to.

And then the fanbase shouts down any argument that they should do it.

But also, it has to be extra hard to come up with enforcement policies for subcultures that use gay slurs so frequently they make Eminem look like Pat Boon.

....Am I dating myself with a Pat Boon joke? I just don't know any modern "wholesome" people.

Presumably various gay cons just take homophobia seriously (and only allow you to discriminate against other minorities).

Well, it is the American way.

*hand over heart*

You might well be made to feel unwelcome, however.

You might be made to feel VERY unwelcome. Churches aren't universal and there's no one ruling on acceptance of gays, so nobody go rant at me for hating on religious folks as a whole. The point is, you might be told to get out. You might be told you're going to Hell. You might be disowned by your family. You might be threatened. And while you aren't likely to be burned at the stake, there still exists a very real possibility you will be assaulted, raped, or killed in the West for coming out as gay, especially to a religious organisation. Every so often we get stories about someone who decides that the Christian thing to do to a lesbian is to rape the gay out of her.

I also fear that like many things it will just turn into an echo chamber, people parroting the same things back and forth to each other with no real "discussion" to be had.

The B in LGBT does not stand for Borg. We are not a collective. We still don't even have a complete agreement on gay marriage, a battle that's technically been going on since the 60s. Hell, we have prominent gay figures still saying gay marriage is wrong, we have gay conservatives opposing the legality, etc etc etc.

The most we're likely to agree on is that there should be more representation in games and less homophobia in the community. And even then, we will very likely disagree on the means to that end.

Sexuality so rarely enters into games, it usually only matters in big RPGs.

I...What? Are we playing the same video games? Like, 205% of games with a story mode have a shoehorned in romance. That's right, they actually break the 100% rule!

How do you go about finding out someone is gay when they are attending a gaming convention? Unless they are there with their partner, surely it would rarely come up?

People, when in public, like to be able to hook up (especially at social gatherings). They also like to be able to appreciate attractive people and the like. This is frequently ignored because it's normalised behaviour for heterosexuals. But the thing is, there's a large amount of sexuality going on around you daily, even if you tune it out because it's normalised. Cons are no different, and because they are large social gatherings may actually be worse. But again, people tend to ignore it when heterosexuals do it because it's seen as "normal."

Which also probably explains the above poster's statement that sexuality rarely enters into video games.

The people who are intolerant are generally spineless people who wouldn't dare speak the same words they do on the internet face-to-face.

That sort of folk wisdom doesn't bear out in the real world. Turns out, dicks are still dicks without anonymity and the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory has no real support. and it's gays, so....

I think, and I could very well be wrong, that A: The 'gaming homophobes' you find on the internet (lurking in LoL and CoD) generally wouldn't be ones to voice these opinions in public and B: Even if there are some jerks at these cons, the ratio of nice, upstanding people to jerks is very much in favor of nice people.

That's not the experience of gays at cons.

And most tolerant people wouldn't be okay with that kind of discrimination in public.

Except the public is still very okay with discrimination based on sexuality. There's more tolerance than ever, but that doesn't mean that acceptance has finally come.

Based on that speculation, I don't see the need for these events like Gaymer Con or whatever.

You're not gay, right? If not, then it's based on speculation and a personal situation that could and would readily overlook things because they're not specifically relevant to your life. And the latter part is the problem. You're speculating based on incomplete information and using it to derive the necessity people with relevant information may or may not feel (and trust me, we do not all agree on the necessity of the "gaymer" cons)

Besides, I thought that the LGBT 'community' want to be seen as no different from anyone else?

"Everyone else" has their own little clubs, too. So how is this different?

[quote If so, having their version of a 'no girls allowed' club seems pretty counterproductive.[/quote]

Except the only "gaymer" cons I know of are open to everyone, gay or straight. Male or female. I suppose I answered my own question about how gays having a clubhouse is different, then. This may not be true of every con, but it's certainly true of the major ones that have got the attention.

mabye you should ask a gay person

Why ask when you can proseltyse to us about what we think, feel, need and experience?

 

[Ragsnstitches]

The difference is greater focus on gay gamers and relevant topics within the industry. Beyond that the conventions are pretty... erm, conventional.

From what I understand, a "gaymer" convention is open to anyone (LGBT and "straight") but the event caters for the gay community a lot more then regular conventions (at least, that's the implication). There will be LGBT themes, promotion of LGBT communities/support and discussion of LGBT issues and topics related to the games industry.

It's a safer and more comfortable event for LGBT communities, but ultimately it's no different beyond the subjects raised.

So anyone claiming "segregation", just stop. That's just sheer ignorance. Most (if not all) of these events are open to straight people too. They promote integration. However, they come down harshly on anyone who makes another group feel unwelcome.

I didn't even know this was a thing.

The more you know...

How do you go about finding out someone is gay when they are attending a gaming convention? Unless they are there with their partner, surely it would rarely come up?

You don't, the invitation is aimed at LGBT folks, but it's stated that all are welcome (with the assumption that you aren't an ornery bigot). The themes and topics will be heavily inluenced by the LGBT demographic however which is why the majority of attendants will be of that demo.

Also, is this really true at conventions? I thought the homophobic comments were more online if anything?

... eh, yeah. It's true in many places, not just conventions. LGBT folks are still subject to targeted harrassment in todays "sophisticated" world.

I've never been to a gaming convention, so I don't know. It really surprises me that people would feel held back from attending because of their sexuality. That is very disappointing if it is true.

It's still not easy for them. Even if there isn't overt bigoted vibes coming from a place, there are always likely to be hostile elements in large conventions (due to large numbers of homophobic people in populations). On top of that, you have to take into account that many LGBT people are already persecuted by local communities (religous or otherwise), meaning they feel especially vulnerable and unwelcome, even if there isn't a threat readily present.

Another issue arises when it comes to event managers dealing with complaints. While many would claim to take all complaints seriously, the reality is many are left to the wayside unless they are significantly affecting the bottom line. At an LGBT event, those issues are addressed rapidly and (for better or worse) favouraby towards LGBT members with explicit intention of making them feel more secure.

Note that even with the relative openeness of these events, they have to be harsh because hostile elements will always try to crash the party, but the numbers are often small enough for event security to handle.

I think segregating just exacerbates the issue, unless it is just a statement of the situation and the real desire of an end result is for an all-inclusive-con.

Straight people are welcome and encouraged to attend. They actively promote integration... that's pretty much their entire shtick over regular conventions.

Gay cons exist in the much the same way as Gay Bars and Clubs exist. It's a (relatively) safe and social environment for them.

 

[Ubiquitous Duck]

How do you go about finding out someone is gay when they are attending a gaming convention? Unless they are there with their partner, surely it would rarely come up?

So what, don't ask don't tell? :/

Also, is this really true at conventions? I thought the homophobic comments were more online if anything?

I've never been to a gaming convention, so I don't know. It really surprises me that people would feel held back from attending because of their sexuality. That is very disappointing if it is true.

The thing is, this is a people problem, not a gaming problem.
LGBT people already get excluded and possibly feel excluded from so many places in life and in society, that creating a safe haven where they can exist freely with other people around a shared interest is nothing but a good thing.

I think segregating just exacerbates the issue, unless it is just a statement of the situation and the real desire of an end result is for an all-inclusive-con.

Quite the contrary. A LGBT focused convention only serves to integrate people into the hobby. It's about inclusion, not exclusion.

How on earth is that 'don't ask don't tell'?

How do you observe someone you don't know and come to the conclusion that they are homosexual?

That was my point.

'Don't ask don't tell' is about keeping the fact you are homosexual secret, otherwise you are not allowed access. How is that at all relevant to me suggesting that you can't simply observe another gaming convention goer as homosexual. How do you determine the sexuality of someone you don't know, just by looking at them at a public event. Hence my suggestion that it would only really be obvious if they attended with their partner. Unless you are suggesting that character/appearance is immediately associated with sexuality...

And, to your second point, that's not freedom. That's protection. In the end, it needs to cause integration. It highlights the problem, that apparently we need separate gatherings in order for people to feel safe. Surely it should be the middle step and the final step is full integration?

To your third point, again I'd say that I'd hope that it is used as a step towards integration, not that the aim is to always hold separate conventions. I don't understand why you would want to force a separation of enjoyment of games on the basis of sexuality.

 

[Thaluikhain]

You might well be made to feel unwelcome, however.

You might be made to feel VERY unwelcome. Churches aren't universal and there's no one ruling on acceptance of gays, so nobody go rant at me for hating on religious folks as a whole. The point is, you might be told to get out. You might be told you're going to Hell. You might be disowned by your family. You might be threatened. And while you aren't likely to be burned at the stake, there still exists a very real possibility you will be assaulted, raped, or killed in the West for coming out as gay, especially to a religious organisation. Every so often we get stories about someone who decides that the Christian thing to do to a lesbian is to rape the gay out of her.

Oh sure, I was understating things a bit there for the sake of a simpler example.

Sexuality so rarely enters into games, it usually only matters in big RPGs.

I...What? Are we playing the same video games? Like, 205% of games with a story mode have a shoehorned in romance. That's right, they actually break the 100% rule!

And to extend on this (though I know you know this already):

Forget the romances, what about all the male and female couples around? Heterosexuality is a sexuality.

Luke's aunt and uncle in the Star Wars movies, that was heterosexuality. Ron's parents in Harry Potter.

Now, these don't seem noteworthy because they are the assumed default. But what if Luke was raised by his uncle and his uncle's male lover? What if Ron had two mothers? It would simultaneously make no real difference to the story, and be the most shocking thing imaginable.

Sexuality doesn't only sudden appear when people who aren't straight pop up.

 

[Ubiquitous Duck]

The difference is greater focus on gay gamers and relevant topics within the industry. Beyond that the conventions are pretty... erm, conventional.

From what I understand, a "gaymer" convention is open to anyone (LGBT and "straight") but the event caters for the gay community a lot more then regular conventions (at least, that's the implication). There will be LGBT themes, promotion of LGBT communities/support and discussion of LGBT issues and topics related to the games industry.

It's a safer and more comfortable event for LGBT communities, but ultimately it's no different beyond the subjects raised.

So anyone claiming "segregation", just stop. That's just sheer ignorance. Most (if not all) of these events are open to straight people too. They promote integration. However, they come down harshly on anyone who makes another group feel unwelcome.

I didn't even know this was a thing.

The more you know...

How do you go about finding out someone is gay when they are attending a gaming convention? Unless they are there with their partner, surely it would rarely come up?

You don't, the invitation is aimed at LGBT folks, but it's stated that all are welcome (with the assumption that you aren't an ornery bigot). The themes and topics will be heavily inluenced by the LGBT demographic however which is why the majority of attendants will be of that demo.

Also, is this really true at conventions? I thought the homophobic comments were more online if anything?

... eh, yeah. It's true in many places, not just conventions. LGBT folks are still subject to targeted harrassment in todays "sophisticated" world.

I've never been to a gaming convention, so I don't know. It really surprises me that people would feel held back from attending because of their sexuality. That is very disappointing if it is true.

It's still not easy for them. Even if there isn't overt bigoted vibes coming from a place, there are always likely to be hostile elements in large conventions (due to large numbers of homophobic people in populations). On top of that, you have to take into account that many LGBT people are already persecuted by local communities (religous or otherwise), meaning they feel especially vulnerable and unwelcome, even if there isn't a threat readily present.

Another issue arises when it comes to event managers dealing with complaints. While many would claim to take all complaints seriously, the reality is many are left to the wayside unless they are significantly affecting the bottom line. At an LGBT event, those issues are addressed rapidly and (for better or worse) favouraby towards LGBT members with explicit intention of making them feel more secure.

Note that even with the relative openeness of these events, they have to be harsh because hostile elements will always try to crash the party, but the numbers are often small enough for event security to handle.

I think segregating just exacerbates the issue, unless it is just a statement of the situation and the real desire of an end result is for an all-inclusive-con.

Straight people are welcome and encouraged to attend. They actively promote integration... that's pretty much their entire shtick over regular conventions.

Gay cons exist in the much the same way as Gay Bars and Clubs exist. It's a (relatively) safe and social environment for them.

Right, OK that makes a lot more sense now, thank you.

As I said, I'd never even come across this as a concept before.

If it is open to all but with an emphasis on LGBT attendance, then this is a lot better than what my first impression gave.

I thought it was being made out to be a separate place to segregate groups of people on the basis of sexuality. Obviously safety of people is important, but sheltering as a long-term goal came across as negative to me. As long as it is to highlight that there are issues, whilst trying to progress to more all-inclusive enjoyment of games, then I'm happy.

 

[Denamic]

As I see it, LGBT specific cons does what regular cons should be doing; providing a welcoming atmosphere for LGBT folks as well as straight people. It is good that LGBT people have a place to attend without feeling out of place or unwelcome, that much is true, but I think it also feeds the notion that LGBT people are special and needs to be segregated, when they are in fact just people like everyone else.

I understand the necessity of these events, but for me, they just highlights something fundamentally wrong with our society. So rather than empowering the LGBT community, they're more like testaments to how much people suck. They shouldn't have to exist.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I understand the necessity of these events, but for me, they just highlights something fundamentally wrong with our society. So rather than empowering the LGBT community, they're more like testaments to how much people suck. They shouldn't have to exist.

I don't think anyone involved would disagree with that.

 

[chikusho]

How on earth is that 'don't ask don't tell'?

How do you observe someone you don't know and come to the conclusion that they are homosexual?

Right. You are saying: If you don't tell anyone about your homosexuality, or express yourself in a pro-LGBT manner, or dress transgendered, or start a discussion about relevant LGBT issues and concerns within the medium and in the industry, or acknowledge a huge part of your life and personality in any way, people will assume you are straight and therefore you won't face any issues.

You don't find that problematic, at all?

And, to your second point, that's not freedom. That's protection. In the end, it needs to cause integration. It highlights the problem, that apparently we need separate gatherings in order for people to feel safe. Surely it should be the middle step and the final step is full integration?

Rather, it welcomes a large number of people into the medium by extending outwards from the 'default' demographic.

To your third point, again I'd say that I'd hope that it is used as a step towards integration, not that the aim is to always hold separate conventions.

Your wish has been granted, for t'was already so!