Elder Scrolls V: How can Bethesda learn from Bioware

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Zeromaeus

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Fappy said:
SirBryghtside said:
Fappy said:
Zeromaeus said:
You know what I'd like. More lore about the dragons. You know? The dragons that went poof sometime in history.
Apparently there is at least one dragon alive, but he's in the continent East of Tamriel where the Nevarine left to after Morrowind.
Akaviri?

I know too much :p

But an Akaviri world sounds cool. It'd definitely give them an originality reboot.
Sadly all the humans there were eaten by Snake-Vampire people lol. Although, here's a cool bit of lore I learned recently: The Blades got their military tactics, weapons and armor styles from the Akaviri... which is why all the Blades stuff is so Asian in style and feel.

It would be pretty bad ass to have a TES game set there though. Who wouldn't want to be Monkey and Tiger people?
Yes, please, and thank you.
Plus a dragon in the story-line makes it infinitely better. Even if just in legend or lore.
 

Zeromaeus

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gold_digger22 said:
What they both need to do is quit revolving their rpgs around elves, space marines, and jedis.

How about something more original.
I have the habit of ripping the souls out of elves in TES. A bad habit I know, but its hard to kick.
 

Fappy

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Zeromaeus said:
Fappy said:
SirBryghtside said:
Fappy said:
Zeromaeus said:
You know what I'd like. More lore about the dragons. You know? The dragons that went poof sometime in history.
Apparently there is at least one dragon alive, but he's in the continent East of Tamriel where the Nevarine left to after Morrowind.
Akaviri?

I know too much :p

But an Akaviri world sounds cool. It'd definitely give them an originality reboot.
Sadly all the humans there were eaten by Snake-Vampire people lol. Although, here's a cool bit of lore I learned recently: The Blades got their military tactics, weapons and armor styles from the Akaviri... which is why all the Blades stuff is so Asian in style and feel.

It would be pretty bad ass to have a TES game set there though. Who wouldn't want to be Monkey and Tiger people?
Yes, please, and thank you.
Plus a dragon in the story-line makes it infinitely better. Even if just in legend or lore.
M'iaq the Liar said there were dragons in both Morrowind and Oblivion if that counts :p

Zeromaeus said:
gold_digger22 said:
What they both need to do is quit revolving their rpgs around elves, space marines, and jedis.

How about something more original.
I have the habit of ripping the souls out of elves in TES. A bad habit I know, but its hard to kick.
"I have a Black Soulgem with your name on it!"
 

Zeromaeus

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Fappy said:
Zeromaeus said:
Fappy said:
SirBryghtside said:
Fappy said:
Zeromaeus said:
You know what I'd like. More lore about the dragons. You know? The dragons that went poof sometime in history.
Apparently there is at least one dragon alive, but he's in the continent East of Tamriel where the Nevarine left to after Morrowind.
Akaviri?

I know too much :p

But an Akaviri world sounds cool. It'd definitely give them an originality reboot.
Sadly all the humans there were eaten by Snake-Vampire people lol. Although, here's a cool bit of lore I learned recently: The Blades got their military tactics, weapons and armor styles from the Akaviri... which is why all the Blades stuff is so Asian in style and feel.

It would be pretty bad ass to have a TES game set there though. Who wouldn't want to be Monkey and Tiger people?
Yes, please, and thank you.
Plus a dragon in the story-line makes it infinitely better. Even if just in legend or lore.
M'iaq the Liar said there were dragons in both Morrowind and Oblivion if that counts :p
...
Not quite. For some reason, I don't find M'iaq to be very reliable. I dunno. Just a hunch.
 

EinTheCorgi

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well the thing is bioware does quality and bethesda quantity i will admit if bethesda would make there story a little less point A to point B and more voice actors and a better character creation would be lovely but i rather have them keep it the same then screw up an already good thing they have.As for bioware i would like there game to be a tad bit more open i mean come on they have the whole universe to play with its big not small.
 

Fappy

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SirBryghtside said:
Zeromaeus said:
...
Not quite. For some reason, I don't find M'iaq to be very reliable. I dunno. Just a hunch.
He told me that there were dragons in the sky...

I hated when my levitation spell ran out :p
He also told me I could find Emperor Crabs in the ocean if I swam far enough... :(
 

Colonel Alzheimer's

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I think Bethesda will primarily make this their own game. However, it has been four years since Oblivion came out. That means that if ES:V is announced soon, it'll probably come out in 2011 or maybe even 2012. That gives it a 5-6 year development time. With a development time that long, I think it means one of two things.
1) The game is big. I mean, really, really big. Way bigger than Oblivion was.
2) The game is somewhat smaller, but they focused on a hand-crafted experience (meaning more voice actors, less copy paste, etc.)
If Bethesda goes (went) for option 1, it means that they recognize what makes Oblivion great and want to capitalize on that. If they went for option 2, it means that they recognize the biggest flaw with Oblivion and hope to add new fans by fixing that.
Personally, I think any game developer who wants to be great would have to pick option 2, whereas a company only in it to make money would go for Option 1. I sincerely hope that they took Option 2.
 

BustaNinja

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Julianking93 said:
Bioware does typically make good with story and it's decision based gameplay, but I really don't like their games.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age both were just very bland and uninteresting to me and I wouldn't want Bethesda to go the same route.

Though, I don't think they will. Bioware has their way, Bethesda has theirs.
As a fellow Julian, I tend to agree about Dragon Age. Now, I love the game, but its all very samey. I've also had to replay a new character several times due to some really annoying issues, so maybe its just bitterness talking. However, I certainly dislike how your actions only seem to affect people. I mean, no matter how I acted, I always got attacked by the wolves in the forest.

Mass Effect is a little better in this respect however. I played probably 12 different characters and styles in Mass Effect 2, and always found a new way to do a conversation, and tended to actually enjoy the differences. The God vs. Douche moments where you have to make a quick decision really stuck with me, and actually made the conversations feel fluid, rather then in DA:O, where I have left the game running in the middle of a conversation to go watch a movie, eat dinner, and stay out all night. I really felt no connection to that, and that kinda bothers me. Maybe its that your character has no voice.

Oblivion is a completely different story. I know whats going to happen. I know how I will save all of Tamriel, as I've played it many times. But there is such a difference to how you can play it each time, it's well worth it. For instance, on my first playthrough, I was the typical Redguard swordsman guy, typical hero. No stealth, nothing. Now, I've playing through again as a super sneaky rogue, and doing the typical rogue things (including stealing, lock picking and pickpocketing) and the game is feeling, and unfolding much different then last time.

Fallout 3 was the same way.

See, both Bethesda and Bioware are great RPG makers. I like parts of both, but neither companies are perfect. Bioware really needs to make another game akin to Bauldur's Gate, and Bethesday could really use a bit better pacing, and to have their games slow down a bit. The fast travel system, while useful, really detracts from the immersion. I'm not saying remove it, because trekking from Bravil to Bruma on horse back or foot would make me want to shoot myself, but fix it better. Maybe take out a loading screen.

Oh, to actually answer the question, Bethesda can learn how to give people titles. Remember "Ser Gilmore" or "Earl Eamon" is alot easier than remembering "Skartuva Navagari" or "Armand Christophe". Give your main important characters important sounding names. Also, the inventory system, and the journal in DA:O were better in my opinion. Tab browsing is only cool online.
 

Fappy

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SirBryghtside said:
Fappy said:
SirBryghtside said:
Zeromaeus said:
...
Not quite. For some reason, I don't find M'iaq to be very reliable. I dunno. Just a hunch.
He told me that there were dragons in the sky...

I hated when my levitation spell ran out :p
He also told me I could find Emperor Crabs in the ocean if I swam far enough... :(
I killed my favourite horse in Oblivion - I wanted to become a lich :(
My horses always died because of my addiction the mountaintop base jumping... watching the horse die and go rag doll from under you is freaking hilarious I must say.
 

pantsoffdanceoff

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I'm sorry, Bioware games are incredibly fucking dull IMO. The Fade and Orzrammar feel like chores and mineral scanning, crap like that doesn't happen in Elder Scrolls Games. The only reason I play through Bioware games are for their interesting plots (And I want the player to get some).
 

Omnific One

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Bioware makes good linear games with often overstylized characters. That being said, I still love Bioware, but you have to realize that most of their games have a story that is too far set in the obviously evil versus obviously good archetype. I'm not saying Bethesda doesn't make the same flaw in their stories, it's just that BW is praised for good storylines.

Bethesda could learn a bit about story presentation from Bioware, and they could learn a bit about doing squad members as a whole. The companions in FO3 were a step, but I suspect we will see full fledged ones in TES:V.

One other thing Bethsoft could improve from BW (or perhaps the team at Ubisoft Montreal) is how to do less robotic character animations. Oblivion and FO3 both had incredibly robotic character animations.

Overall, Bioware and Bethesda could learn a ton from each other. My dream game would be a collaboration between the two companies, as BW is an incredibly close second to Bethesda in my mind.

BustaNinja said:
The fast travel system, while useful, really detracts from the immersion. I'm not saying remove it, because trekking from Bravil to Bruma on horse back or foot would make me want to shoot myself, but fix it better. Maybe take out a loading screen.
I was thinking something akin to FO3's rest system where the images flash by as you go. However, the amount of processing power would be too excessive for that to work on the current gen; they could also use DA:O's map style instead, which conveys movement well.
 

Zeromaeus

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Something I'd like back from the days of Daggerfall, although this is completely arbitrary. I'd like to be able to summon the Daedric Lords. The statue mojo is fine and all, but I like the concept of summoning these beings better than talking to their statues.
 

Fappy

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Omnific One said:
Bioware makes good linear games with often overstylized characters. That being said, I still love Bioware, but you have to realize that most of their games have a story that is too far set in the obviously evil versus obviously good archetype. I'm not saying Bethesda doesn't make the same flaw in their stories, it's just that BW is praised for good storylines.

Bethesda could learn a bit about story presentation from Bioware, and they could learn a bit about doing squad members as a whole. The companions in FO3 were a step, but I suspect we will see full fledged ones in TES:V.

One other thing Bethsoft could improve from BW (or perhaps the team at Ubisoft Montreal) is how to do less robotic character animations. Oblivion and FO3 both had incredibly robotic character animations.

Overall, Bioware and Bethesda could learn a ton from each other. My dream game would be a collaboration between the two companies, as BW is an incredibly close second to Bethesda in my mind.
I've talked with some friends about what would happen if they ever collaborated on a project. It would probably never happen, but it would be pretty awesome. The IP they used would probably be the biggest problem.
 

imaloony

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To me, Oblivion was a DISASTER. I don't know if calling it a "Bad Game" is fair, but it's certainly overhyped. I think it was just a good game for it's time, but I suppose I can give the Bethesda team some advice.

1. Get Better Voice Acting! - This was a big deal for me. Whenever I heard a character talk, I did not hear a humanoid talking cheetah barmaid, I heard a female pulled off the street, told to do some lines with no training, no practice, and on a day she had a cold, and then put through Garage Band to change its pitch. I don't think this will be a problem in 5, as Fallout 3 had excellent voice acting, and I think Bethesda has learned from it.

2. More Engaging Story! - The Oblivion story was bland, to put it nicely. An emperor is dead, you must find his son and help him stop some demon force from destroying the world. Honestly, I could think up a better plot than this (And have, being an amateur writer!), and because the story was a so unengaging, and combined with the lame voice work, it kept me from wanting to complete the story. So much so that it took me three heaving tries before I got to a steady pace to finish the story. Again, Fallout 3 did much better in this regard, so I hope they learned from that.

3. Better Character Animations! - I don't mean graphics, because I'm sure those will be fine. I mean the movements the character models made. In Oblivion, I'm sure it was impressive for the time, but today they all look like marionette puppets. Especially in combat, their flailing limbs can really wear on your nerves quickly. This also means combat animations, so that they don't look like the same fight happening about 10,000 times.

4. More Engaging World! - Once again, Fallout 3 pulled this off wonderfully, so I hope this improves because of this, but Oblivion's world was boring. As Yahtzee said, it was like they took a square kilometer of forest, added a few wolves, and copy-pasted it until they had a small country. The world had no variety, and very few interesting locals that you would want to explore. Part of this was because there weren't really any friendly NPCs anywhere to give you a sense of population and life, just a bunch of enemies anywhere there isn't a town.

5. Friendly AI that can tie its own friggin' shoes! - The friendly AI in Oblivion was laughable, if you didn't have to rely on them. The biggest problem was trying to fight with your friendly AI. So often you would accidentally slay someone you were fighting with or escorting because they would jump in your way, and you're so much more powerful than them. This can really be a problem in a mission like the final mission in the Knights of Nine expansion. My first time through, two of my knights jumped in front of me like morons, got killed by me by accident, which the game called two evil acts, stripping me of my armor and weapons. Of course, this was BS, and seeing as how I brought literally no other armor with me, I was screwed and had to restart.
I think the most common problem with people was the quest Allies for Bruma. You go to Cheydinhal, where you learn that there's not only an Oblivion Gate, but the Ruler of Cheydinhal's son went into the portal to seal it with his "Knights of the Thorn" to try and seal it themselves. When you go in, you find only two of them left, and these idiots, of course, glue themselves to you instead of staying put. On the bridge ahead, I can't tell you how many times this stupid Prince NPC fell off the bridge to his death. No problem, right? Just explain what happened to the ruler, right? Wrong. You need to get a ring of the Price's body if he died. If he fell off the bridge, there is no way to get the ring outside of a console command unavailable on the 360 version. Worse, if sir Thorns-For-Brain jumps in front of your sword and dies, you fail the mission because you killed him.
Honestly, just put some work into the AI! It can't be THAT difficult to commit a small team to making sure the ally AI at least doesn't impede your completion of quests.

6. BETTER COMBAT!!! - The combat in this game was a huge disappointment. Really, it was "Block, Attack, Block, Attack, Block, Attack", repeat until dead. This made combat so boring that side quests like the Dark Brotherhood that had you stealth killing people was a breath of fresh air. Yeah, there were spells and Bows, which were a bit better, but the game made you feel like if you weren't using melee primarily, you were doing it wrong, which was a shame, because the melee was awful. Make it more varied and less repetitive.

What did I like about the game, though? Well, while there wasn't much of it, a few of the songs were pretty decent in the game, and I felt the Side Quests were imaginative, varied, and a lot of fun, especially the Guild Missions. However, if Bethesda can't improve on my 6 points above, TES: V won't even be worth a glance.
 

Shru1kan

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Fappy said:
ElTigreSantiago said:
I feel that Bioware's games have been a lot more linear than Oblivion and Fallout 3. But the character thing is definitely true.

Also, I don't really think that Bethesda should be looking up to Bioware for ideas. I enjoyed Fallout 3 and Oblivion more than Mass Effect and Dragon Age. In my opinion, Bethesda is the ONLY developer that has ever succeeded at making an open world seem like an open world. While Bioware's worlds are all seperated by constant loading screens and things to make you THINK you are traveling, Bethesda's actually let you travel from place to place in one great big seamless environment. Anytime I play an open-world game, I can't stop thinking about how much it fails in comparison to Bethesda's.
Actually the traveling thing reminds me of an old argument that must be made. Elder Scrolls V SHOULD NOT have fast travel! Give us fast horses or certain means of faster travel (i.e. boats and Silt Striders), but please no instant teleportation (although Mages Guild teleportation is fine).

Or you could just, you know, not use it?

I have 40 hours in my current oblivion guy, and still have yet to crack the theives guild or shivering isles, and am only halfway done with fighters guild. The rest are done and then sidequests to do, both in the isles and cyrodill. Pretty sure a game that's gonna go to at LEAST 60 hours, from a guy who is on his 37th character and has done it all at least 30 times, is happy doing a few quests with the benefits of quick travel, but exploring at my leisure.

Besides, it's not freaking insta-teleport unless you type into the console "coc (location)", time passes and I don't hear anyone complaining about RDR's version of the camp system. Sorry if I don't want to meet Oreyn in leyawin after we talk in freaking chorrol, thats at least an hour on foot real time, and anywhere from half the time to even longer on horse depending on your athletics. I'll fast travel to do my quest and if I want to dungeon raid later when I don't have to be somewhere IRL I'll pick a direction and discover most of the places in that area. I have over 200 locations discovered on my current guy, and maybe a quarter to a third of the map is completely explored.

Someone liked morrowind I think. But there is no denying that if I want to just do a couple quests while I wait 40 minutes for my girlfriend to get here (like today), I'd rather be questing, not walking.
 

Omnific One

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Fappy said:
Omnific One said:
Bioware makes good linear games with often overstylized characters. That being said, I still love Bioware, but you have to realize that most of their games have a story that is too far set in the obviously evil versus obviously good archetype. I'm not saying Bethesda doesn't make the same flaw in their stories, it's just that BW is praised for good storylines.

Bethesda could learn a bit about story presentation from Bioware, and they could learn a bit about doing squad members as a whole. The companions in FO3 were a step, but I suspect we will see full fledged ones in TES:V.

One other thing Bethsoft could improve from BW (or perhaps the team at Ubisoft Montreal) is how to do less robotic character animations. Oblivion and FO3 both had incredibly robotic character animations.

Overall, Bioware and Bethesda could learn a ton from each other. My dream game would be a collaboration between the two companies, as BW is an incredibly close second to Bethesda in my mind.
I've talked with some friends about what would happen if they ever collaborated on a project. It would probably never happen, but it would be pretty awesome. The IP they used would probably be the biggest problem.
Just start a new fantasy IP. It is incredibly easy to make an original fantasy IP as the name suggests, imagination is the limit.

But my dream idea that would make the ultimate game is a resistance game made by BW/Bethesda. RPG elements where you build up yourself and an army to destroy an invading force would be incredible. There is so much free world potential in the resistance concept; besides, no one has done a modern game with RPG elements set in this kind of world (as far as I know).

I think the biggest question is what can Bethsoft take from FO3 and put in TES:V. Considering the massive number of improvements, I can see a lot of potential there.
 

Fappy

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Shru1kan said:
Fappy said:
ElTigreSantiago said:
I feel that Bioware's games have been a lot more linear than Oblivion and Fallout 3. But the character thing is definitely true.

Also, I don't really think that Bethesda should be looking up to Bioware for ideas. I enjoyed Fallout 3 and Oblivion more than Mass Effect and Dragon Age. In my opinion, Bethesda is the ONLY developer that has ever succeeded at making an open world seem like an open world. While Bioware's worlds are all seperated by constant loading screens and things to make you THINK you are traveling, Bethesda's actually let you travel from place to place in one great big seamless environment. Anytime I play an open-world game, I can't stop thinking about how much it fails in comparison to Bethesda's.
Actually the traveling thing reminds me of an old argument that must be made. Elder Scrolls V SHOULD NOT have fast travel! Give us fast horses or certain means of faster travel (i.e. boats and Silt Striders), but please no instant teleportation (although Mages Guild teleportation is fine).

Or you could just, you know, not use it?

I have 40 hours in my current oblivion guy, and still have yet to crack the theives guild or shivering isles, and am only halfway done with fighters guild. The rest are done and then sidequests to do, both in the isles and cyrodill. Pretty sure a game that's gonna go to at LEAST 60 hours, from a guy who is on his 37th character and has done it all at least 30 times, is happy doing a few quests with the benefits of quick travel, but exploring at my leisure.

Besides, it's not freaking insta-teleport unless you type into the console "coc (location)", time passes and I don't hear anyone complaining about RDR's version of the camp system. Sorry if I don't want to meet Oreyn in leyawin after we talk in freaking chorrol, thats at least an hour on foot real time, and anywhere from half the time to even longer on horse depending on your athletics. I'll fast travel to do my quest and if I want to dungeon raid later when I don't have to be somewhere IRL I'll pick a direction and discover most of the places in that area. I have over 200 locations discovered on my current guy, and maybe a quarter to a third of the map is completely explored.

Someone liked morrowind I think. But there is no denying that if I want to just do a couple quests while I wait 40 minutes for my girlfriend to get here (like today), I'd rather be questing, not walking.
I was just suggesting that you have feasible reasons for the existence of fast travel. Not just stand outside and say I want to walk here. Morrowind did a fine job of it and sure, go ahead and make fast travel more abundant and easier to access than it was in Morrowind, but don't just let the player character pop in and out of areas across the map without any effort at all. A suggestion for this: Bring back Mark and Recall and improve the ability to accommodate a few marked locations. Or make consequences for fast travel on foot or horseback.
 

Sightless Wisdom

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If it were possible to have some sort of fusion of Bethesda's gameplay and Bioware's story telling....I would love to see it. However Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is one of my favourite game of all time so I'm perfectly content with Bethesda's current formula.

Side note: Still no news on a fifth elder scrolls title is there? Hope they get on that soon.
 

Sightless Wisdom

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Fappy said:
I was just suggesting that you have feasible reasons for the existence of fast travel. Not just stand outside and say I want to walk here. Morrowind did a fine job of it and sure, go ahead and make fast travel more abundant and easier to access than it was in Morrowind, but don't just let the player character pop in and out of areas across the map without any effort at all. A suggestion for this: Bring back Mark and Recall and improve the ability to accommodate a few marked locations. Or make consequences for fast travel on foot or horseback.
I have to disagree with this. More features in a game is not often something to complain about. It's very easy not to use fast travel if you don't want to. For many people walking or taking a horse across a countryside every time they need to start a new quest or advance a plotline is not appealing. I like Morrowind as well as Oblivion but I honestly stopped playing Morrowind before finishing the main quest-line for a few reasons, one of them begin it took far too much time to accomplish anything entertaining. There's such thing as a sense of accomplishment when you work for something, but some things are just not worth the effot.
 

Omnific One

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Sightless Wisdom said:
If it were possible to have some sort of fusion of Bethesda's gameplay and Bioware's story telling....I would love to see it. However Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is one of my favourite game of all time so I'm perfectly content with Bethesda's current formula.

Side note: Still no news on a fifth elder scrolls title is there? Hope they get on that soon.
The guys on the Bethsoft forums are speculating on an August GI cover announcement.