EVE Online Politics: A spy just screwed a few thousand players, years of work.

[Oswald D Grant]

You're getting into trouble because you're using the snooty term 'gaming purist' to give extra weight your own likes and dislikes.

Grinding is a red herring. It doesn't matter how you get your pieces. The point is that Diplomacy has a wargame element of moving pieces around and a political element, and the game doesn't work without both. The same is true of Eve. Saying 'the game should still be fun if there were no politics' is to miss the point by a mile. The game is the politics, take them away and it's just pieces on a board.

And no, nobody can move your pieces around unless you specifically grant them the ability to. I never had any problem with scammers and I never scammed anyone. I didn't grind and I left the game with three billion isk in assets.

 

[geldonyetich]

And no, nobody can move your pieces around unless you specifically grant them the ability to. I never had any problem with scammers and I never scammed anyone. I didn't grind and I left the game with three billion isk in assets.

Well, it's a tricky bit of business.

Did BoB grant this individual the ability to dismantle their empire thusly? Yes.
Would BoB prefer this individual dismantle their empire thusly? No.

Assuming that, like us, BoB isn't manned by complete idiots - or perhaps assuming that BoB is, by nature of being a giant empire, the furthest thing from a complete idiot - the fact that this event happened establishes to a great degree that there is no true security in EVE Online.

This much has been said already, in fact harped as the main thing the game has going for it: No matter how secure you think you are, there's always the chance you can lose everything. If somebody you trusted turns traitor, and the admins will go along with that, because apparently that's how the game is played.

I look at that and I say, "No thank you, sir, I shall play a game of monotonous activity where my progress can be sabotaged with the admins' blessing." You can feel free to play it if this possibility excites you. This paragraph, in a nutshell, encapsulates what EVE Online has always been.

 

[Trivun]

It's just like in the real world. If a traitor in the UK or US government somehow comes into possession of the nuclear launch codes of all our or your missile defence systems or cuts a copy of the key to the White House or 10 Downing Street, then that person always has the potential to turn traitor and sell that information to a rival country, like China or Russia. Then us and you Americans are fucked. And that is sort of what happened here. The best that can be said as a positive for this is at least it shows that playing EVE has a sense of realism, at least in some ways.

 

[geldonyetich]

The funny thing is, I like dynamic content more than most players. I'm not a care bear who freaks out if I lose progress. I got yelled at on the City of Heroes boards for suggesting that heroes should defend the city from purse snatchers or lose basic necessities. The rise and fall of player-made nations is specifically what the MMORPG genre needs because it sucks that, no matter many times people kill that puppy-drowning villain, he's just going to respawn and start killing more puppies.

However, I find EVE Online's handling of it to be crudely done - it's dynamic content at the most brute-force implementation. A really refined dynamic content implementation should be regulated in such a way as to create a more satisfying gameplay experience, in my philosophy. What EVE Online has leads to train wrecks which, fortunately for EVE Online, many of its players interpret as "politics."

In other words, realism does not equal fun. It's interesting in adhering to the realism aspect, sure, but does it make the best game? There's where I step off the train before it wrecks.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

The funny thing is, I like dynamic content more than most players. I'm not a care bear who freaks out if I lose progress. I got yelled at on the City of Heroes boards for suggesting that heroes should defend the city from purse snatchers or lose basic necessities. The rise and fall of player-made nations is specifically what the MMORPG genre needs because it sucks that, no matter many times people kill that puppy-drowning villain, he's just going to respawn and start killing more puppies.

However, I find EVE Online's handling of it to be crudely done - it's dynamic content at the most brute-force implementation. A really refined dynamic content implementation should be regulated in such a way as to create a more satisfying gameplay experience, in my philosophy. What EVE Online has leads to train wrecks which, fortunately for EVE Online, many of its players interpret as "politics."

In other words, realism does not equal fun. It's interesting in adhering to the realism aspect, sure, but does it make the best game? There's where I step off the train before it wrecks.

Will you stop repeating the same damn point over and over and over again. WE GET IT.

 

[geldonyetich]

Will you stop repeating the same damn point over and over and over again. WE GET IT.

You do? This is the first I heard of it. Sorry I couldn't read between the lines with all the nitpicks and see the agreement there - in my neck of the woods that isn't a realistic expectation to put a person up to.

I do repeat my points a lot, but only to clarify. Over the course of this thread, I finally worked out what I was trying to say to a much simpler, "it's fascinating how realistic EVE Online dynamic content is, but forcing unregulated realism upon the individual players isn't what I'd call fun" sentiment, so some progress was made.

It's related to this event in that it's a real epiphany of an example. (Or maybe not - after all, many of the BoB players seem to love that this happened, as they anticipate a lot of fun on the horizon of trying to reforge their broken empire. But, when I acknowledge this, I can't help but think that this is because EVE Online must be pretty boring when a mess like this isn't happening.)

 

[axia777]

I personally think that is hilarious! I do not play EVE but I appreciate the fact that just like real life a player can betray and screw others in such an effective fashion. Truly awesome!

 

[Oswald D Grant]

Assuming that, like us, BoB isn't manned by complete idiots - or perhaps assuming that BoB is, by nature of being a giant empire, the furthest thing from a complete idiot - the fact that this event happened establishes to a great degree that there is no true security in EVE Online.

Who do you think you're talking to, exactly? I ran a corp in Eve Online which did nothing but take billions of isk worth of minerals and turn them into billions of isk worth of modules. I had to give people access to my minerals, my stock, my blueprints and even sufficient amounts of isk for them to pay all the fees incurred. I did this knowing that at any time any one of them might go FUCK GOOOOOOONS and defect. I took sensible precautions and managed my risk, compartmentalised everything to limit the potential for damage and I didn't have a single problem in the whole year I played.

And you're telling me that there's no security in Eve Online?

And your rationale for this? That BoB is big, therefore BoB must be intelligent, therefore BoB must have good security practices. I could fly a Providence through the holes in your logic. You insult me, sir.

This much has been said already, in fact harped as the main thing the game has going for it: No matter how secure you think you are, there's always the chance you can lose everything. If somebody you trusted turns traitor, and the admins will go along with that, because apparently that's how the game is played.

I find it quite galling how you keep harping on about the admins 'going along with it'. You've been told many times already that betraying a corp is a valid move within the game. You're obviously aware of the concept of betrayal as a game mechanic if you've heard of Diplomacy, yet you seem incapable of generalising that knowledge to the matter at hand.

That said, you are wrong, as usual. You can be absolutely 100% secure in Eve. You don't have to trust anyone with access to your stuff if you don't want to.

I look at that and I say, "No thank you, sir, I shall play a game of monotonous activity where my progress can be sabotaged with the admins' blessing." You can feel free to play it if this possibility excites you. This paragraph, in a nutshell, encapsulates what EVE Online has always been.

Firstly, that's a sentence not a paragraph. Secondly, nobody is telling you to play Eve Online. In fact I'm quite certain that the people around here who still play Eve Online are quite happy that you aren't playing it. Third, you are ignorant of the game. You keep telling me what the game is like when I've played it for an extended period and you haven't.

Fine, you don't have to play it, but stop telling me you know something you obviously don't. It's really annoying.

 

[Oswald D Grant]

I got yelled at on the City of Heroes boards for suggesting that heroes should defend the city from purse snatchers or lose basic necessities.

ಠ_ಠ I cannot imagine how that happened.

 

[Novania]

This is absolutely pathetic. People have worked and paid money for years and years to have fun, and then one guy sabotages it. May he be castrated in real life with a rusty teaspoon and be forced to make monetary compensation for the damage he caused. GUILTY.

Double GUILTY, i really hope that guy gets the **** beaten out of him for being such a dick.
For the short time i was in an EVE corporation, it was really cool to go on massive raids with the rest of the corp. I kinda feel terrible for BoB cause they just got shafted the biggest shaft an MMO can give. I've also seen the massive fleet battles that the major corps like BoB have and its really intense to see (although it almost killed my pc cause of the lag).

Well isent this something new, i guess that BoB will remake soon enough, bigger and better, they've dissapeard befor, and came back, SHame the there MAX Strat dident work to well, Shame on Goonswarm, not only are they a bunch of bad sports, but they'd stoop this low, "We'll never be like bob....ever" Sorry Goon, your worse, if this is what GS need to do to get on top, im a sure a GM or 2 Will roll it back a week. if not, then the system is balls'd up so yeah, i'v played gor about 2 years on/off and tbh im going off it, this is just another spanner in the works, for bob, but as i said, if the GMs dont roll it back, becuase of this one guy then all is infact lost.

God i really hope the Goons get whats coming, hopefully BoB will rebirth stronger than ever but the chances are pretty low for that, and if they do get rolled back then they'd better kick all the Goonswarm player's asses so bad that they have no chance of rebuilding! I so wish i could go super hacking on EVE and kill every single GS i ever find until there are none of them left!!!!

 

[king zettta]

I wish playing eve was half as awesome as the stories I've heard about it

 

[cainx10a]

I guess the EvE dev should consider adding more Guild/Alliance based features like voting out of an alliance with another guild / Corp to prevent this from happening. But, one man destroying the work of thousands of hours just by clicking a few times here and there, is not some uber duber masterpiece, but a disaster piece.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

It's more like you're playing poker on a team, and one of the guys who holds many of the cards hates everybody on your team, comes into the contact by the rival team, and jumps at the opportunity to betray you all. He conspires with the best of the enemy team to play his cards in such a way as to completely undermine yours. Billions of chips and prominent cards are lost, and the officials just smile, say "that's politics," and allow the traitor to join the other team.

So, the question is, why would you want to get involved in this game? It's clearly not for the chips or to prove yourself a great poker player, because apparently all the power to make change is held by those who social engineer and turn traitor. You play this game because you like watching the spectacle of moves like this. The game itself, it's generally agreed, is too boring to play by itself. (That's where "gaming purists" like myself step off and find other things to do: gaming purists want to play games for the game itself.)

Maybe poker isn't good analogy game because it's not so much you're bluffing your opponents, and luck isn't much of a factor.

He did this without breaking any rules, other than your own of no traitors allowed in a 'pure' game. If <a href='http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=991219' target=_blank>this is to be believed, he did this because he found the people he was with, the people who claimed to be the best of the best, turned out to have been treating him worse than the other side seemed to treat theirs, the very side who they called scum.


As indicated by your later posts, the 'purist' definition is passive experience. Active interaction may not be what you want, but it is far from impure. You want defined goals, instead of making your own. You want reward with less risk. You want less direct contention with other people. Other gamers disagree with you, and the nature of games themselves would have been disagreeing with you long before you were born, to where your continued claim of being of a class of 'purist gamers' seems absurd.

I am not saying the games that don't have these elements are not games, but your claims have no foundation, and your statement of

Or maybe not - after all, many of the BoB players seem to love that this happened, as they anticipate a lot of fun on the horizon of trying to reforge their broken empire. But, when I acknowledge this, I can't help but think that this is because EVE Online must be pretty boring when a mess like this isn't happening.

condescends to those that find building their own stories within a world filled with great risks and challenges to be a fun game, that the success is sweeter, and even failure can be worth the glory of the journey.

There's nothing wrong with liking the games you do, but I ask you kindly to consider stepping down from your horse and join the rest of us, who are happy to have you as long as you stop trying to look down at us.

 

[MercFox1]

You know, now that many BoB players have nowhere to go; AAA or one of the other highly ranked Alliances would do well to court these now-exiled players. Clearly GoonSwarm is now the biggest, juiciest, and most attractive target, and it's difficult to stay in that situation for long.

This will create a power vacuum alright, and oddly enough, the rivals of GoonSwarm that were constantly being harassed in the western quadrants could come out of this stronger than before. Sovereignty is certainly trashed, but the greatest two losses BoB experienced were their command structure and their defenses and infrastructure. The pilots and a lot of their personal assets are still intact in some form, and they could easily be swept up by some smart people. They sure as hell aren't going to GS after what's happened.

 

[StAUG]

Will you stop repeating the same damn point over and over and over again. WE GET IT.

You do? This is the first I heard of it. Sorry I couldn't read between the lines with all the nitpicks and see the agreement there - in my neck of the woods that isn't a realistic expectation to put a person up to.

I do repeat my points a lot, but only to clarify. Over the course of this thread, I finally worked out what I was trying to say to a much simpler, "it's fascinating how realistic EVE Online dynamic content is, but forcing unregulated realism upon the individual players isn't what I'd call fun" sentiment, so some progress was made.

It's related to this event in that it's a real epiphany of an example. (Or maybe not - after all, many of the BoB players seem to love that this happened, as they anticipate a lot of fun on the horizon of trying to reforge their broken empire. But, when I acknowledge this, I can't help but think that this is because EVE Online must be pretty boring when a mess like this isn't happening.)

Thanks for bringing your 25 years of GAMING PURIST knowledge and experience to the table, and taking the time out to tell us stupid dirt minions how it really is.

Christ. What a fucking tool.

 

[geldonyetich]

Meh, most of these last few replies reek of fanboyism.

The worst amongst you:

Thanks for bringing your 25 years of GAMING PURIST knowledge and experience to the table, and taking the time out to tell us stupid dirt minions how it really is.

Christ. What a fucking tool.

My oh my. Interpreting what I said that way -- somebody has self-esteem issues, methinks. The last sentence is particularly ironic in that I could imagine him saying that if I change the first period to a colon. "Oh, so you're the son of God here to tell us poor dirty mortals how to live life? Well, by my logic, I can take offense to that and this renders your argument inoperative." My first reaction to your message was to tell you to go to Hell, but given your logic, no need.

Oswald D Grant, nice wall of text, but you were operating on the level of giving me zero credit to begin with, and consequently your reading comprehension failed: you ended up making arguments not against me, but rather a fantasy version of me without a brain or who never played EVE Online. As you said, "You insult me, sir." There's no real point to addressing each of your points when they were built on a shoddy foundation like that.

Paulgruberman was the best amongst you.

Or maybe not - after all, many of the BoB players seem to love that this happened, as they anticipate a lot of fun on the horizon of trying to reforge their broken empire. But, when I acknowledge this, I can't help but think that this is because EVE Online must be pretty boring when a mess like this isn't happening.

condescends to those that find building their own stories within a world filled with great risks and challenges to be a fun game, that the success is sweeter, and even failure can be worth the glory of the journey.

There's nothing wrong with liking the games you do, but I ask you kindly to consider stepping down from your horse and join the rest of us, who are happy to have you as long as you stop trying to look down at us.

Fair enough.

I will go this far:

Maybe a lot of EVE Online players don't want to hear that the cake is a lie: that for the most part a lot of the "politics" in EVE are basically a bunch of unregulated snafus that end up hosing a lot of what would be a balanced play experience; that the actual game itself (one of flying ships and grinding minerals) isn't so much fun as the drama surrounding it.

The reason why they don't want to hear it that it's this illusion that makes the game work. Once ensnared in that illusion, you're now in "a world filled with great risks and challenges [...] a fun game, that the success is sweeter, and even failure can be work the glory of the journey."

However, by calling it out as what it really is, I'm not lying: it's the truth. You can rage against that all you like, you're just shooting the messenger. Granted, a messenger who sits around all day broadcasting the same message might seem worthy of shooting. But, if you didn't want him to do that, you probably shouldn't be trying to actively engaging him in an argument.

I apologize to Theo Samaritan for repeating myself, again, but apparently some people didn't get what I was saying. As my fortune cookie says, "You find beauty in ordinary things. Appreciate this gift." A lot of people probably see me posting the obvious and think I'm trying to gouge them with it. They're jumping at shadows: the obvious is the obvious, nothing more, nothing less. If you try to make the obvious something else, you've slipped outside of perceiving it as what it is.

I should consider going back and editing my posts referring to "gaming purism." If you read a little further ahead, you'll see I realized that's a bit of am ambigious statement that suggests things I never meant to imply. (Gaming in what way? Purism in what way?) Cheeze_Pavilion correctly pointed out:

--the grinding might not be fun for YOU, but, that does not mean it isn't fun for anyone.

That's pretty much the bottom line for me. I don't like how EVE Online is a grind, and I don't like how EVE Online's "politics" undermine the game itself. I'm really not alone in finding this a travesty:

This is absolutely pathetic. People have worked and paid money for years and years to have fun, and then one guy sabotages it. May he be castrated in real life with a rusty teaspoon and be forced to make monetary compensation for the damage he caused. GUILTY.

Double GUILTY, i really hope that guy gets the **** beaten out of him for being such a dick.
For the short time i was in an EVE corporation, it was really cool to go on massive raids with the rest of the corp. I kinda feel terrible for BoB cause they just got shafted the biggest shaft an MMO can give. I've also seen the massive fleet battles that the major corps like BoB have and its really intense to see (although it almost killed my pc cause of the lag).

However, that's just me and a few other guys on this thread - if you're okay with that, who am I to suggest that you're deluding yourself? I might call myself a gaming purist just because I enjoy pure game play uninterrupted by aspects such as social engineering, but that doesn't mean only this kind of gaming purist can enjoy games.

 

[geldonyetich]

I don't play the game, but, it seems to me a group as big as the BoB must have known that sabotage was part of the game. Especially when you're staring across the map at people called Goon Swarm.

You should probably play the game, at least a 14-day trial [https://secure.eve-online.com] or something, because it'd give you an idea about where my complaint is when I talk about the grind as being problematic (the Cat's cradle example not ignored so much as considered off-tangent) from a game play enjoyment factor, as well as how it is that this major EVE Online politics aspect undermines the whole thing.

The funny thing is that the sabotage isn't exactly a part of the game.

In any guild in any MMORPG, somebody with enough access can screw over a guild. EVE Online differs mostly in that the guilds have enough major assets in the game to dictate the fate of thousands of man hours of gameplay through their actions. The thing is, in most MMORPGs, if something like this happens the admins step in and fix the damage, while in EVE Online this involves so much work that it's easier for the admins to shrug and say, "that's politics."

A lot of people diving in here to defend this "spy just screwed a few thousand players, years of work" as an awesome example of the game's open-ended nature are assuming a bit much. It's something that happened through lack of effort on behalf of the admins, not a distinctively immersive design. Any MMORPG (with in-game player-owned assets managed be guilds (e.g. Shadowbane or Star Wars Galaxies)) can replicate this by simply choosing not to reverse the actions of grief players or hackers.