EVE Online Politics: A spy just screwed a few thousand players, years of work.

[Oswald D Grant]

you were operating on the level of giving me zero credit to begin with, and consequently your reading comprehension failed

Snip what you can't answer, eh?

You argued that "there is no true security in EVE Online," on the basis that if security were possible BoB would have used it. That's what I understood your argument to mean, that's what everyone else present understood your argument to mean. If that isn't what you meant, then the failure lies in your writing not in our reading.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

That's pretty much the bottom line for me. I don't like how EVE Online is a grind, and I don't like how EVE Online's "politics" undermine the game itself. I'm really not alone in finding this a travesty

How many times do we have to tell you, the politics are the game? The game isn't just the board and the pieces, but the process by which they are moved. You are entirely alone in not understanding this.

Why should I give you the slightest bit of credit when you fail to grasp this very simple fact?

 

[geldonyetich]

How many times do we have to tell you, the politics are the game? The game isn't just the board and the pieces, but the process by which they are moved. You are entirely alone in not understanding this.

Why should I give you the slightest bit of credit when you fail to grasp this very simple fact?

I would like to say that you are entirely alone in missing the part where I said things like this...

Ultimately, the question is, does EVE Online entertain you by being a game, or does it entertain you by being a drama? My bet is that, for the majority in players, it would be the later: the drama. There's nothing wrong with being entertained by drama - but you can see what a gaming purist wouldn't necessarily prioritize a drama very highly in terms of activities they want to do today.

... in order to have arguments with an imaginary me. However, as this is an Internet forum, I would say that this delusion is more the norm than the exception.

Yeah, my typical forum feind, I'm aware that the politics (the drama) are apparently the game. All I was saying - all I was ever saying - is that this isn't my kind of game because I prefer games that are games and not games that are drama.

 

[Oswald D Grant]

The thing is, in most MMORPGs, if something like this happens the admins step in and fix the damage, while in EVE Online this involves so much work that it's easier for the admins to shrug and say, "that's politics."

Okay, you've gone from ignorance to actually telling lies. This is a lie.

If you had any experience of Eve or read the forums you'd know that the admins are much more willing to restore equipment lost to bugs in Eve than in many MMOGs, certainly more so than in any other MMOG I've played, and I've played a few.

They have been absolutely adamant that the reason they don't undo corp thefts is that trust and betrayal of trust both form part of the game. This is their policy and always has been, and to suggest that they simply 'pretend' that it's part of the game in order to avoid the effort of refunding goods is quite simply a lie. A lie told by a lying liar.

The 'damage' you speak of is the gameplay. You seem to think that it makes a difference how many hours of gameplay are affected, but it doesn't, just as it doesn't matter how much many hours you worked for the money you lose at a casino; you chose to gamble it, it's nobody's responsibility to return it to you if you lose it as a result.

You can call me an Eve fanboy if you like, but I don't play Eve anymore. It's a sterile game and a time sink and I don't know if I'll ever play it again. I consider WAR a better game for entertainment value, and CoH better for creativity. I'm not out to defend Eve. I just dislike ignorance, and I hate liars.

Why do you think I never tried my hand at scamming?

 

[Oswald D Grant]

does EVE Online entertain you by being a game, or does it entertain you by being a drama?

By being a game. Drama is when I read a story like this. Game is when I have to decide how to organise my resources and how much access to grant to which people in order to maximise profitability/convenience while minimising the probability of thefts and other losses.

It is strategy.

It is game.

 

[geldonyetich]

The thing is, in most MMORPGs, if something like this happens the admins step in and fix the damage, while in EVE Online this involves so much work that it's easier for the admins to shrug and say, "that's politics."

Okay, you've gone from ignorance to actually telling lies. This is a lie.

If you had any experience of Eve or read the forums you'd know that the admins are much more willing to restore equipment lost to bugs in Eve than in many MMOGs, certainly more so than in any other MMOG I've played, and I've played a few.

Well, there's a thin line between a lie and speculation.

I was speculating that restoring the damage done by such a major thing as a BoB defection and mass ship and credit moving is a whole lot more work than restoring some equipment lost to bugs.

It's an easy speculation to make. What if an admin takes a guild defection and doesn't reverse it, and calls it politics? Gee, it seems to be exactly what happens in EVE Online.

[...] quite simply a lie. [...] A lie told by a lying liar. [...]I just dislike ignorance, and I hate liars. Why do you think I never tried my hand at scamming?

Well, I'd say you weren't giving my integrity any credit, but at this point that's largely academic. It's an act of generosity I bother speaking to anyone at all who is so easily convinced people are liars. I see you enjoy a message medium that makes it difficult to slap you. Not that I would talk to you in person. Frankly, your screaming rant about how much of a liar I am makes me not want to be in the same room with you. When you can't attack the issue, apparently you attack the person. That's an act of ignorance far greater than you see in me.

 

[lizards]

you know i found that to be boring but that was what i loved about it the depth of everything it wasnt just a game is was like a new world where the things you do have an impact

 

[Theo Samaritan]

-cut for length-

So you dismiss arguments because you assume we're all Eve players, and must defend our 'delusions'?

You've come here to preach what you say as gospel, and will not consider anything other than your stance is the only acceptable one; and because you have found something distasteful, it must be wrong. On what do you base this judgement that those who enjoy what you do not are inherently mistaken, and are not really having fun? Just as you seem to think we don't want to hear that we're somehow mistaken, you refuse to hear that your view is too narrow to encompass the differences in what people enjoy.

As you claim your truth, so too we claim ours: your view is narrow, your mind is closed, and we prefer the choices available.

 

[geldonyetich]

-cut for length-

Spoiler

So you dismiss arguments because you assume we're all Eve players, and must defend our 'delusions'?

You've come here to preach what you say as gospel, and will not consider anything other than your stance is the only acceptable one; and because you have found something distasteful, it must be wrong. On what do you base this judgement that those who enjoy what you do not are inherently mistaken, and are not really having fun? Just as you seem to think we don't want to hear that we're somehow mistaken, you refuse to hear that your view is too narrow to encompass the differences in what people enjoy.

As you claim your truth, so too we claim ours: your view is narrow, your mind is closed, and we prefer the choices available.

Does this sound like something a narrow-minded, closed view person would say:

However, that's just me and a few other guys on this thread - if you're okay with that, who am I to suggest that you're deluding yourself? I might call myself a gaming purist just because I enjoy pure game play uninterrupted by aspects such as social engineering, but that doesn't mean only this kind of gaming purist can enjoy games.

I've said similar things many times on this thread.

There's a certain level of irony here when a fellow is called out for being closed minded because the accuser was closed-minded enough to only read what they wanted to read.

Maybe you are being a close-minded fellow to demand that your perspective on EVE Online is the only correct one when you decided to tell me that I'm obviously wrong. Ever think of that?

If you're going to honor others' opinions, you might as well start with me.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

There's a certain level of irony here when a fellow is called out for being closed minded because a person was closed-minded enough to only read what they wanted to read.

Did you not read what I said earlier? I asked you to consider that others do not share your views. You claimed them delusional, and that yours was the 'truth'. Need me to quote the relevant parts of your post?

 

[geldonyetich]

There's a certain level of irony here when a fellow is called out for being closed minded because a person was closed-minded enough to only read what they wanted to read.

Did you not read what I said earlier? I asked you to consider that others do not share your views. You claimed them delusional, and that yours was the 'truth'. Need me to quote the relevant parts of your post?

I know specifically what you're referring to:

Spoiler

I will go this far:

Maybe a lot of EVE Online players don't want to hear that the cake is a lie: that for the most part a lot of the "politics" in EVE are basically a bunch of unregulated snafus that end up hosing a lot of what would be a balanced play experience; that the actual game itself (one of flying ships and grinding minerals) isn't so much fun as the drama surrounding it.

The reason why they don't want to hear it that it's this illusion that makes the game work. Once ensnared in that illusion, you're now in "a world filled with great risks and challenges [...] a fun game, that the success is sweeter, and even failure can be work the glory of the journey."

However, by calling it out as what it really is, I'm not lying: it's the truth. You can rage against that all you like, you're just shooting the messenger. Granted, a messenger who sits around all day broadcasting the same message might seem worthy of shooting. But, if you didn't want him to do that, you probably shouldn't be trying to actively engaging him in an argument.

Therein, I forward the same two points:

• [li]What passes as "politics" in EVE Online would destroy a level playing field in many games (e.g. Chess).[/li]
  [li]Flying ships and grinding minerals - the game without the politics - isn't so fun.[/li]

What you would need to do is disprove this. Not because my truth is the ultimate truth, but rather because this logic would seem to be sound, and it was all that I was saying.

If you thought there was more to it, well, perhaps I am missing something, or perhaps you're jumping at shadows.

[Really, it was the same thing I was always saying, and it was a pretty civil conversation up until the later quarter of this thread. Some people's chosen interpretation of this has been somewhat negative. Maybe it's because, as a person who enjoys playing fun games without the politics, I expressed a negative opinion. However, it was always only that: one man's opinion. Your milage with EVE Online may vary, and that's fine.

At the root of this is probably semantics. What makes a game? It's far too broad to say. Even books on game design can't seem to settle on one definition. If I call myself a "gaming purist," it doesn't really makes a whole lot of sense. The only reason I did is because I enjoy games for the game mechanics, without interference from politics ("social engineering") or something else, and what is that if not purism in games? Of course this "Spy screwed a few thousand players" thing is going to rub me the wrong way. However, if you're taking offense to me calling EVE Online less a game than a drama - well, game is just a word with a sketchy definition.]

 

[Theo Samaritan]

Therein, I forward the same two points:

• [li]What passes as "politics" in EVE Online would destroy a level playing field in many games (e.g. Chess).[/li]
  [li]Flying ships and grinding minerals - the game without the politics - isn't so fun.[/li]

What you would need to do is disprove this. Not because my truth is the ultimate truth, but rather because this logic would seem to be sound, and it was all that I was saying.

If you thought there was more to it, well, perhaps I am missing something, or perhaps you're jumping at shadows.

1) And is standard fare in many others, Diplomacy as just recently pointed out. Mutliplayer turn-based strategy games have many examples, both board games and computer. Card games are commonly more involved with dealing with the mind of the other players than the mechanics of the game (Sheepshead and Bullshit immediately come to mind, though a lot are known by various other names).

2) Eve continues to grow in subscription numbers, despite it being clearly stated as policy that they are hands-off in cases where no game rules are broken, and despite the fact that it proudly proclaims their flying space ship and robust economic model, or 'grinding minerals', as you prefer to term it.

Could you prove that those that play Eve are not having fun?

 

[StAUG]

Meh, most of these last few replies reek of fanboyism.

Funny you should say that, I quit EVE because I got bored it. You fail.

The worst amongst you:

Thanks for bringing your 25 years of GAMING PURIST knowledge and experience to the table, and taking the time out to tell us stupid dirt minions how it really is.

Christ. What a fucking tool.

My oh my. Interpreting what I said that way -- somebody has self-esteem issues, methinks. The last sentence is particularly ironic in that I could imagine him saying that if I change the first period to a colon. "Oh, so you're the son of God here to tell us poor dirty mortals how to live life? Well, by my logic, I can take offense to that and this renders your argument inoperative." My first reaction to your message was to tell you to go to Hell, but given your logic, no need.

Your argument becomes inoperative when I don't give a shit about it either way. I didn't call you a tool because you do/don't like EVE, I'm calling you a tool because you carry on like a pretentious ******.

 

[geldonyetich]

1) And is standard fare in many others, Diplomacy as just recently pointed out. Mutliplayer turn-based strategy games have many examples, both board games and computer. Card games are commonly more involved with dealing with the mind of the other players than the mechanics of the game (Sheepshead and Bullshit immediately come to mind, though a lot are known by various other names).

True, but the trouble with this argument is that EVE Online is not Sheepshead/Bullshit/Poker. EVE Online is exactly what it is: a game where you grind a lot of minerals to build up ships that presumably will fight with each other to establish dominance on various sections of space.

Can I still qualify it as being part of the game when that is completely circumvented by one person pushing a few buttons and destroying an empire, without needing to fire a shot? Can I still qualify it as being part of chess when the opponent overturns the chess table?

I'm not so sure either of us can answer this. Truth of the matter is, some EVE Online players are extremely ticked off about what happened to BoB, other EVE Online players are saying "that's politics" and the admins are being remarkably closed lipped about their intentions. Why should they care, as long as the subscriptions come in?

2) Eve continues to grow in subscription numbers, despite it being clearly stated as policy that they are hands-off in cases where no game rules are broken, and despite the fact that it proudly proclaims their flying space ship and robust economic model, or 'grinding minerals', as you prefer to term it.

I don't like the argument that "if it's popular, it must be good." McDonalds is popular - it's not five-star dining. World of Warcraft is several hundred times more popular than EVE Online - do we determine from this that World of Warcraft must be several hundred times more fun?

EVE Online's subscription numbers come from something, but it could just as easily be the drama, not the fun of the game.

Could you prove that those that play Eve are not having fun?

If we could define what fun is in so many words, I could try.

Your argument becomes inoperative when I don't give a shit about it either way. I didn't call you a tool because you do/don't like EVE, I'm calling you a tool because you carry on like a pretentious ******.

So... I'm a tool because... you don't like how I sound or act.

Well, that is an easy argument to win. Well done, my prejudice friend.

 

[StAUG]

Your argument becomes inoperative when I don't give a shit about it either way. I didn't call you a tool because you do/don't like EVE, I'm calling you a tool because you carry on like a pretentious ******.

So... I'm a tool because... you don't like how I act.

Well, that is an easy argument to win. Well done, my prejudice friend.

Apology accepted.

 

[smallharmlesskitten]

Snip

It's pretty obvious that you do not like the game so why don't you shut the F**k up and let those of us that do go an enjoy it without your bitter trolling.

 

[geldonyetich]

It's pretty obvious that you do not like the game so why don't you shut the F**k up and let those of us that do go an enjoy it without your bitter trolling.

Because they invalided my opinion, and I tend to react to that through clarification.

I'm not bitter, or trolling. Just anal. And this is apparently the most exciting thing to do with my time right now.

 

[smallharmlesskitten]

It's pretty obvious that you do not like the game so why don't you shut the F**k up and let those of us that do go an enjoy it without your bitter trolling.

Because they invalided my opinion, and I tend to react to that through clarification.

I'm not bitter, or trolling. Just anal. And this is apparently the most exciting thing to do with my time right now.

Just shut your cake hole them aye? I think most of us are sick of it. We LIKE the damn game. Why do you have to try and tell us we do not. I highly doubt you are psychic.

 

[blackriderrom]

I'd play Eve, really - given the time, that is. I'd try to team up with the disbanded BoB though.