EVE Online Politics: A spy just screwed a few thousand players, years of work.

[geldonyetich]

Look at it this way: the holocaust was participant/player-driven. No GMs or rules around to hold those Nazi's hands as they butchered millions of people. It was extremely poignant, but it's still not fun to be a part of. It's a really interesting tangent to consider: a game can be an epic failure in terms of how good it is to play, but still generate a great deal of spectacle value.

(Well, Godwin's Law has been met. Feel free to lock er' up. )

And it is a spectacle, that's pretty much most of what EVE Online is in terms of the value it offers to players. This whole "EVE Online Politics: A Spy Just Screwed A Few Thousands Players, Years Of Work" is proof that EVE Online sucks as a game: what kind of game says it's okay for the opposing team utilize an underhanded means to wipe out all the points you team scored?

EVE players love this stuff because it's basically all the game has going for it. I mean, you're grinding asteroids and churning out ships and parts all day, you're afraid to lose all your hard work, and something finally breaks and it's a giant relief. It creates an illusion that something meaningful is happening. All that hard work seems worth it... but the reality may be we're just witnessing a broken game self-destructing and choosing to interpret it as "politics."

Who knows, maybe the whole way this ordeal will play out, it'll be the end of EVE. BoB will quit en masse, the rest of the players will suddenly realize, "shit, what if that happened to us - my account could get hacked tomorrow, my faction disbanded, and the developers won't do anything to fix it." The EVE Online staff is then forced to either meddle more in player' dealings or watch as their baby implodes. Either way, they're screwed: meddle, and there goes the spectacle, don't meddle, and there goes any security the players had.

However, to theorize this would be the end of EvE would be assuming that the people currently playing EVE Online were doing so for a reason other than spectacles just like this. Heck, they'd probably get even more subscriptions, people hoping to be a part of the next major self-destruction wave. To an extent, their choice in how to react to this pretty much proves their motivation: "We're not meddling because we realize the spectacle is a higher value than our game integrity: when players cheat, it's just more fun to assume that's part of the game."

"EVE Online: Sit. Relax. Drink The Kool-Aid."

 

[Salahhadeen]

Look at it this way: the holocaust was participant/player-driven. No GMs or rules around to hold those Nazi's hands as they butchered millions of people. It was extremely poignant, but it's still not fun to be a part of. It's a really interesting tangent to consider: a game can be an epic failure in being genuinely good to play, but still generate a great deal of spectacle value.

(Well, Godwin's Law has been met. Feel free to lock er' up. )

And it is a spectacle, that's pretty much most of what EVE Online is in terms of the value it offers to players. This whole "EVE Online Politics: A Spy Just Screwed A Few Thousands Players, Years Of Work" is proof that EVE Online sucks as a game: what kind of game says it's okay for the opposing team utilize an underhanded means to wipe out all the points you team scored?

EVE players love this stuff because it's basically all the game has going for it. I mean, you're grinding asteroids and churning out ships and parts all day, you're afraid to lose all your hard work, and something finally breaks and it's a giant relief. It creates an illusion that something meaningful is happening. All that hard work seems worth it... but the reality may be we're just witnessing a broken game self-destructing and choosing to interpret it as "politics."

Who knows, maybe the whole way this ordeal will play out, it'll be the end of EVE. BoB will quit en masse, the rest of the players will suddenly realize, "shit, what if that happened to us - my account could get hacked tomorrow, my faction disbanded, and the developers won't do anything to fix it." The EVE Online staff is then forced to either meddle more in player' dealings or watch as their baby implodes. Either way, they're screwed: meddle, and there goes the spectacle, don't meddle, and there goes any security the players had.

To an extent, their choice in how to react to this pretty much proves their motivation: "We're not meddling because we realize the spectacle is a higher value than our game integrity: when players cheat, it's just more fun to assume that's part of the game."

However, to theorize this would be the end of EvE would be assuming that the people currently playing EVE Online were doing so for a reason other than spectacles just like this. Heck, they'd probably get even more subscriptions, people hoping to be a part of the next major self-destruction wave.

"EVE Online: Sit. Relax. Drink The Kool-Aid."

Ok, I don't, and never have played Eve, but frankly, this sort of thing really draws me in. I don't play MMOs but I'm tempted. This kind of event isn't going to push people away, it's what this game appears to be all about. I guess you're right in a sense, it's not really a true video game in the old fashioned sense. But to people with more of an interest in politicking and building empires against other people, rather than bashing skulls in a conveniently safe world, this is seems like the place to be. It's more real, and more rewarding when you do manage to succeed.

How is this cheating? If this is player-driven, as many players have said it is, then how can you cheat? What defines cheating vs playing the game? I think you're the one trying to call what are actually "politics" "cheating" because it doesn't fit with your view of a fun game. To me, it doesn't get much cooler than that. The risk makes the reward much better.

 

[Ace of Spades]

I don't play EVE, and this is another good reason to add to my list. If years of work can be snuffed out so easily, that's not the game for me.

 

[killjoyfuly]

well i once had an eve online acount trial ftw
in the short space of 4 days id manged to set my self up as a theif without much dificulty all i had to do was fly my tiny ship into a mining zone with low sov and low and behold what did i find an abondoned minning ship just sitting with the keys in the ignition (also rubble ill assume some battle had gone on before hand) i left with the ship took it to station sold it and its cargo and bought my self a rather agressive frigate

so for a while i was having great fun hijacking small mining ships (alot just get left lying around) when all of a sudden i jump into a zone and right into the middle of a fight between some big massive ships lil old me got pod killed that day

*edit*
i have the sudden urge to start another acount and see how the worlds changed since i last entered

 

[Theo Samaritan]

And it is a spectacle, that's pretty much most of what EVE Online is in terms of the value it offers to players. This whole "EVE Online Politics: A Spy Just Screwed A Few Thousands Players, Years Of Work" is proof that EVE Online sucks as a game: what kind of game says it's okay for the opposing team utilize an underhanded means to wipe out all the points you team scored?

The same kind of game that allows you to use the same tactics yourself to take out the other team. Nothing unfair went on, they just got their first.

Being honest, while you have a valid opinion, you just seem to be dragging out the argument. Your points are valid and acceptable for the most part, but now it appears you are filling in some ego boost. Preaching to the thick masses etc etc.

EVE is a game that resembles real life reasonably well. You honestly believe corporate espionage and so fourth doesn't happen in the real world? Even with laws against it, it happens. EVE is just a paradigm of what would happen if there were no rules.

But this discussion is besides the point, the topic is about the end of Band of Brothers, not how you think EVE is a waste of internet pixels.

Can we leave it at that?

 

[geldonyetich]

But this discussion is besides the point, the topic is about the end of Band of Brothers, not how you think EVE is a waste of internet pixels.

Can we leave it at that?

Sure, if you don't want to take it as far as, "What's to stop my corp from being next?"

But, hey, apparently it's part of the game and you're all comfortable with that idea, so I suppose that'd be a moot point.

I would not play that, and seeing one of the biggest player organizations in the cease to exist because of a few clicks is is one of the main reasons why, but to each his own. I guess it's okay, from a gaming-purist perspective, if I think of it as more of a social thing, like an Internet-based scavenger hunt or something.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

Sure, if you don't want to take it as far as, "What's to stop my corp from being next?"

But, hey, apparently it's part of the game and you're all comfortable with that idea, so I suppose that'd be a moot point.

I would not play that, and seeing one of the biggest player organizations in the cease to exist because of a few clicks is is one of the main reasons why, but to each his own. I guess it's okay, from a gaming-purist perspective, if I think of it as more of a social thing, like an Internet-based scavenger hunt or something.

You're still missing the point. He didn't reach that position of power without the express consent of those he was given that power over. If you don't want to happen to your alliance, then you build it with oversight to spot and prevent such things. BoB was hardly an alliance of corporations new to the concept of espionage and the damage that could be done by spies within their ranks. Either they had a breakdown in the rest of the leadership that would have been able to stop this, or they somehow believed someone could not fool them and make it to such a position.

 

[Asuri Kinnes]

Sure, if you don't want to take it as far as, "What's to stop my corp from being next?"

But, hey, apparently it's part of the game and you're all comfortable with that idea, so I suppose that'd be a moot point.

I would not play that, and seeing one of the biggest player organizations in the cease to exist because of a few clicks is is one of the main reasons why, but to each his own. I guess it's okay, from a gaming-purist perspective, if I think of it as more of a social thing, like an Internet-based scavenger hunt or something.

You know, I've been gaming 30+ years, all kinds of games, all different styles, and I have no idea what your talking about when you (repeatedly) say "I'm a gaming purist..." wth? What exactly do you mean? As far as I can tell, you don't like eve-onlines playstyle, and therefore "its not a game"? What? Gotta admit, your making no sense whatsoever...

This game is huge fun. Risk is part of the reward.. And, unlike other games, E-O is all on one server, its not sharded and it has a single continuous history.

As for the Corporation/Alliance interface being broken? IMHO no-one should have been able to decimate the Alliance in this manner. But it has, and now there is mass chaos and confusion amongst the pixels... I extend my sympathies to the players who have been keeping BoB a continuing and going concern, and wish them luck in the future!

AK

P.S. - hey Theo!

AK }>

Bye the way:
http://killboard.eve-ivy.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6696

Tech II ship taken out by a buncha n00b ships and one falcon. So for all those saying you "can't play the game" or "can't catch up" - complete BS. Yes the game takes a while to learn, but it also rewards all the different styles! man... If you don't like, I won't change your mind, but I hope anyone else that is reading these takes a moment to remember each game type is not for "everyone..."

AK

 

[Jamanticus]

I think this is a very good thing for EVE. It's beneficial (in the long run) for a game to have a huge power shift every now and then, although I'm worried about what GoonSwarm will do now that the scales have tipped a bit in their favor. Zest and variety will increase in time, and I'm sure the game's already having a spike in interest over this little coup.

In short, this is a revitalizing thing for the EVE community, despite the major headaches that it's put people through.

Thanks for posting this, Theo Samaritan- good to have discussion on game politics, even though some users have been saying nothing but 'EVE suckzz0rs!'

 

[geldonyetich]

You're still missing the point. He didn't reach that position of power without the express consent of those he was given that power over. If you don't want to happen to your alliance, then you build it with oversight to spot and prevent such things. BoB was hardly an alliance of corporations new to the concept of espionage and the damage that could be done by spies within their ranks. Either they had a breakdown in the rest of the leadership that would have been able to stop this, or they somehow believed someone could not fool them and make it to such a position.

When a guild master goes crazy and kills off your entire guild's leadership structure and in game assets that have taken years to establish and cannot be rebuilt, and the GMs shrug their shoulders and say, "that's politics", it doesn't particularly matter how they got there.

Except maybe if we're talking about hacker protection, and the GMs drawing the line there. Here's hoping they are drawing the line there.

Somebody was allowed in a position to overturn the table the chess board was on, and that this is overlooked by the supposed moderators of all this is, in itself, not what I'd call a real good policy to maintain game integrity.

This very basic thing is what bothers me about the incident. I'm not missing anything, I'm just saying that it's not my preference to get that heavily involved in a game on such a shaky "that's politics," foundation. I prefer to play games, not be played by other players.

Again, if this is your cup of tea, there's no reason to pay me any mind. I'm not saying my preferences are everyone's preferences. I'm just cutting to the quick of this "spy screwed a few thousand players" thing, as I see it.

You know, I've been gaming 30+ years, all kinds of games, all different styles, and I have no idea what your talking about when you (repeatedly) say "I'm a gaming purist..." wth? What exactly do you mean? As far as I can tell, you don't like eve-onlines playstyle, and therefore "its not a game"? What? Gotta admit, your making no sense whatsoever...

Well, I've only got 25+ years of all different kinds of games and all different styles. So I guess if I explain to you that being a 'gaming purist' means you have an interest in influencing success or failure in a game, without having matters outside of your control such as popularity get involved... well, it's entirely my fault if you don't get that, hmm? Yes, I must be crazy and have no point whatsoever because you're so darned experienced that it would make sense to you implicitly otherwise.

[By] the way:
http://killboard.eve-ivy.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6696

Tech II ship taken out by a buncha n00b ships and one falcon. So for all those saying you "can't play the game" or "can't catch up" - complete BS. Yes the game takes a while to learn, but it also rewards all the different styles! man... If you don't like, I won't change your mind, but I hope anyone else that is reading these takes a moment to remember each game type is not for "everyone..."

Apparently if you have 30 friends and a Calidari Sentry gun, sure. It doesn't do much more than reinforce my points that you need tech or social connections to prevail more than actual ship piloting skill in this game.

They took out a heavy interdictor, which is kind of impressive, except that ship class really isn't supposed to be fighting by itself so much has supporting a fleet. Looks like they mostly took it down with a bunch of drones, probably from outside of the range of those 425mm autocannons (whose tracking has a difficult time with drones if I remember correctly) before the pilot blundered into sentry gun range.

In further investigation, apparently [http://killboard.nights-dawn.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=7019] there was more involved than a bunch of frigates, the interdictor wasn't alone through the whole engagement. Looks like they were out ganking cargo ships before the hammer came down. It's possible the interdictor was sacrificed deliberately to let the pricier allies' ships get away. Since then, that pilot has been busy murdering newbies in a recon ship [http://killboard.nights-dawn.com/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=44455&view=recent], it seems.

Really, the whole incident is sort of a testimony of how bored players are to find 30 of them readily interested in conspiring to gank a lone heavy interdictor the cheapest way possible. Maybe we're lucky and that wasn't 30 gankers but rather 5 gankers with a 6 multibox setup each. Being Eve university ships, it's entirely possible we're looking at experienced players flying a bunch of free trial throwaway alts.

It sort of loses a bit of that heroism and power mystique under further investigation. It's possible a bunch of newbies which knew which way to point a drone all rose up and took out an interdiction team that was harassing them, but it's really hard to say from the killboard alone - I think the multiboxers pulling a trial account kamakaze move scenario is more likely.

 

[Jamanticus]

Edited because the original mistake I was pointing out has been resolved!

 

[geldonyetich]

Edited because the original post pointing out the quote mistake which was resolved has been resolved!

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Sound spretty insane and unfair that one single player can cause such a shit storm.
But i suppsoe the players know thats a central aspect of the game and adds a huge reason for carry on with your subscription. If i played eve then this is the kind of thing that i would cream in pants about.
It stops the Big organiseation from whoring the game constantly and no one can blame the adims for it either

Eve is a game built on the notion of absolute fairness, in spite of what many would believe. At the end of the day, all a player really has is the contents of their wallet, the ships and supplies in their hangers, the skills on the sheet and their wits. Most games try to restrict what players can achieve in order to introduce an artifical balance - which is often confused with fairness.

Such moves happen from time to time in Eve, though this one will almost certainly count among the most important in terms of game politics but the actual impact on the rank and file in the game is quite profound. The space in the game, though vast, is limited. Wits and skill only get a player so far, eventually you need enough friends to build a mighty war machine to not only gain additional access to important (and limited) resources but also to defend what you have. Unfortunately, the game's mechanics of absolute fairness (in that everyone has the same basic tools at their disposal) favor the coordinated group over the individual (much like real life). Yes, it still takes players to hop into ships for battles, but once an alliance has a strong enough infrstructure to absorb massive losses in ships and materials again and again, and once they have the capacity to ensure the enemies big guns cannot be brought to bear (soverignty 4 lets you build a device called a cyno jammer to stops enemy capital ships from gaining access to a system) an attacking faction has no choice but wage a war of attrition and hope the enemy runs out of capital before they do.

That this status quo can be swept aside with the stroke of a pen (or a mouse click) is part of the brilliance of Eve. Suddenly, smaller corporations and alliances have the opportuntiy to take their own shot at the brass ring, and with enough determination, skilll and more than a little luck they might just make the big time.

For many, the objectives in Eve are simple and easy to attain. Perhaps you want to become a successful pirate - all it takes is persistance and a willingness to die a lot while you learn. Maybe you want to be a successful independent industrialist - if you're willing to expend the time and resources such players can be amazingly successful. Other players are interested simply in partaking of PVE and amassing vast fortunes that they use to build some of the costliest and most lethal incarnations of popular ships. Eve caters to these people and yet it also offers room to advance your goal as much as you want. The solo pirate might want to form a band of battle hardened pilots to rent out as mercenaries. The industrialist might set their sights on regional market domination.

Eve gives every player the tools they need to become legendary in the game world, and rarely does the game wag a finger at your schemes. Planning a clever pyramid scheme? If you can convince players to fall into your trap the game is perfectly fine with letting you run one. Do you have a flair for cloak and dagger activities? There is at least one famous account of such an action. Is galactic domination your style? All you need is enough guns and with them you can burn the universe. Yes, Eve is not the game for everyone and it comes with a laundry list of complicatons that cause most who play it to turn elsewhere for entertainment, but Eve is quite simply the only game I have ever played that literally lets you be and do whatever you want to.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

@geldonyetich

Your positon is certainly well argued and I can't disagree with your premise. No one likes losing, no one likes being played and no one likes being screwed. But in Eve, as in life, all you can do is make bold attempts to insulate yourself from the problem. There's an adage that is almost certainly as old as Eve that goes "Don't undock in a ship you can't afford to lose" - and this almost certainly points to the mindset of many of the "movers and shakers" of the Eve universe. Those that make things happen must, above all else, be willing to put their own assets on the line to make progress.

Naturally, this mindset doesn't go well with most people, and a great many players of the game go to extraordinary lengths to stay as far from danger as possible. As they amass their wealth and purchase increasingly expensive ship components, they eventually produce something that is far to expensive to ever consider losing, and this leads almost inevitably to a self destructive spiral. They take fewer risks and in return have fewer memorable moments but their ship becomes even more expensive pushing them to taking even fewer risks and the cycle continues on and on until the day they cancel their subscription. Our distaste for failure makes us fear failure, and once a player's vulnerability is demonstrated they either go into a seige mentality or they make a concious effort to learn how to come out on top the next time they're pressed into a do or die situation. In Eve, you either learn to win or you learn how to not lose; the two routes lead to entirely different game experiences.

Eve might not be the game for everyone, or even almost anyone, but that doesn't make the concept bad or poorly executed. You are free to try to be whatever you want, and the game sits by as an impartial moderator in your trials. Some people truly enjoy this concept, so much so that they can look past a thousand tiny flaws that drive most players away (boring, repative PVE, crushing death penalties, giant skill gaps between veteran and new players, russian roulette style fleet combat and so forth) and go forth into that hostile, often boring and sometimes far to exciting universe and try to carve out their own little slice of legend.

I played Eve for three years (I still have an account) but lately I have shown no real interest in the game. These days, when given the choice between hopping into my trusty Cerberus and joining a roaming gang looking for a fight and strapping on my armor and shield and waging war against Chaos as a Knight of the Golden Sun in Warhammer Online, I almost invariably choose warhammer. Eve requires a commitment far beyond what most games ask of us and that was great for a time, but now I'd rather step off that derange roller coaster and play something that asks for a lesser commitment. If my mood (and schedule) change sometime in the future, the deep black of Eve will hopefuly remain open to me. Until then, I leave the universe in the hands of some of the nicest cut throats I've ever been associated with.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

Apparently if you have 30 friends and a Calidari Sentry gun, sure. It doesn't do much more than reinforce my points that you need tech or social connections to prevail more than actual ship piloting skill in this game.

They took out a heavy interdictor, which is kind of impressive, except that ship class really isn't supposed to be fighting by itself so much has supporting a fleet. Looks like they mostly took it down with a bunch of drones, probably from outside of the range of those 425mm autocannons (whose tracking has a difficult time with drones if I remember correctly) before the pilot blundered into sentry gun range.

I'm wondering when you quit playing, being honest.

Also, EVE be damned for it being a multiplayer game that actually encourages you to work together to accomplish anything. >_>

 

[theultimateend]

I'm guessing the guy was an infiltrator looking for internet fame by massive trolling.

Actually the guy was a very popular and well known BoB director who has been there for years.

However he was probably convinced by the goons to grab everything and run.

I have 10 bucks riding on him getting killed in real life.

 

[GloatingSwine]

I think this is a very good thing for EVE. It's beneficial (in the long run) for a game to have a huge power shift every now and then, although I'm worried about what GoonSwarm will do now that the scales have tipped a bit in their favor. Zest and variety will increase in time, and I'm sure the game's already having a spike in interest over this little coup.

Whilst I'm sure it will spike interest, it really says a lot about Eve that it's biggest hope for drawing players is that something interesting happens in the metagame every few years.

Seriously, all of this drama had absolutely no connection to actions taken in the Eve application itself or content provided by it's makers, it was entirely spawned by and played out in the metagame arena right up until it came time to log in and make a few all but insignificant administrative clicks.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

I think this is a very good thing for EVE. It's beneficial (in the long run) for a game to have a huge power shift every now and then, although I'm worried about what GoonSwarm will do now that the scales have tipped a bit in their favor. Zest and variety will increase in time, and I'm sure the game's already having a spike in interest over this little coup.

Whilst I'm sure it will spike interest, it really says a lot about Eve that it's biggest hope for drawing players is that something interesting happens in the metagame every few years.

Seriously, all of this drama had absolutely no connection to actions taken in the Eve application itself or content provided by it's makers, it was entirely spawned by and played out in the metagame arena right up until it came time to log in and make a few all but insignificant administrative clicks.

You are reading a lot into it if you think this is it's biggest hope for drawing players.

 

[GloatingSwine]

You are reading a lot into it if you think this is it's biggest hope for drawing players.

Not really. This, like previous metagame shenanigans like banking scams, are the only time Eve ever really gets any attention from the mainstream gaming press. These are it's biggest profile raisers, and that kind of attention is what will attract new people for their 14 day trial far more effectively than website banner ads.

 

[DoomyMcDoom]

well i once had an eve online acount trial ftw
in the short space of 4 days id manged to set my self up as a theif without much dificulty all i had to do was fly my tiny ship into a mining zone with low sov and low and behold what did i find an abondoned minning ship just sitting with the keys in the ignition (also rubble ill assume some battle had gone on before hand) i left with the ship took it to station sold it and its cargo and bought my self a rather agressive frigate

so for a while i was having great fun hijacking small mining ships (alot just get left lying around) when all of a sudden i jump into a zone and right into the middle of a fight between some big massive ships lil old me got pod killed that day

*edit*
i have the sudden urge to start another acount and see how the worlds changed since i last entered

... how could you have the required skill to fly a mining ship after 4 days, I assume it was a cruiser. since you cannot train for any industrial ships on a trial account whatsoever...
just wondering, when were you on eve last? cuz it sounds like you started out doin pretty much the same thing as me(I went for frigate piloting/ecm skills first and was pretty much a pirate from day 1 fun stuff)
if you ever do get a new account or anything now's probably a good time to get involved again with BoB gone the level of oppertunity just spiked gonna be alotta fightin to be done and alotta winning